Bitcoin Forum
December 18, 2018, 06:18:28 PM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 0.17.0 [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: « 1 [2]  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Provably fair, correct me if I'm wrong  (Read 1295 times)
Omikifuse
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1260
Merit: 1000


Betting Championship betking.io/sports-leaderboard


View Profile
January 21, 2015, 12:52:24 AM
 #21

Many bitcoin gambling sites state that they are provable fair.
Let's assume they are.

But what if they bet on their own game many many times, wouldn't they increase their profit by doing so?
If they create the highest betting volume, they have a higher stake in the whole game.

Do I miss something?


they have house edge, so I guess they would not win.

Even if they do, they would have to pay from their own bankroll, so no advantage at all


Guess you meant something else

1545157108
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1545157108

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1545157108
Reply with quote  #2

1545157108
Report to moderator
1545157108
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1545157108

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1545157108
Reply with quote  #2

1545157108
Report to moderator
1545157108
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1545157108

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1545157108
Reply with quote  #2

1545157108
Report to moderator
"In a nutshell, the network works like a distributed timestamp server, stamping the first transaction to spend a coin. It takes advantage of the nature of information being easy to spread but hard to stifle." -- Satoshi
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1545157108
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1545157108

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1545157108
Reply with quote  #2

1545157108
Report to moderator
yoloer808
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 168
Merit: 100


Web dev for hire


View Profile
January 21, 2015, 06:56:18 AM
 #22

Many bitcoin gambling sites state that they are provable fair.
Let's assume they are.

But what if they bet on their own game many many times, wouldn't they increase their profit by doing so?
If they create the highest betting volume, they have a higher stake in the whole game.

Do I miss something?


they have house edge, so I guess they would not win.

Even if they do, they would have to pay from their own bankroll, so no advantage at all


Guess you meant something else

he means a situation in which they accept investments, and therefore defraud investors. Yes this is basically how it works - you need to trust the owners of the casino not to do it. Trust takes time to build.
fox19891989
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 840
Merit: 1000



View Profile
January 21, 2015, 08:37:37 AM
 #23

Once I read a thread about dice cheating, it says the site admin can control the result, and admin can use new accounts to steal money from investors.
Josef27
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 784
Merit: 1000


View Profile
January 25, 2015, 03:09:37 AM
 #24

It looks like owner can probably always find a way to cheat customers. Sad

Seems to be the safest solution in which the owner is sharing earnings with investors - more investors safer casino.
Unless the owner run away with the investors' money
Even if the owner try to cheat his customer (by backdooring the provably fair or something) the members would figured it out quickly.
panju1
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1246
Merit: 1000



View Profile
January 25, 2015, 05:13:24 AM
 #25

Many bitcoin gambling sites state that they are provable fair.
Let's assume they are.

But what if they bet on their own game many many times, wouldn't they increase their profit by doing so?
If they create the highest betting volume, they have a higher stake in the whole game.

Do I miss something?


I don't think that there is any possibility of cheating when game is provably fair..
Here it is well described:

https://satoshidice.com/provably-fair/

Provably fair means if you cheat, there is high probability that you would get caught.
Doesn't stop a site from cheating / running away with investor funds.
b!z
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1582
Merit: 1006



View Profile
January 25, 2015, 06:46:17 AM
 #26

Once I read a thread about dice cheating, it says the site admin can control the result, and admin can use new accounts to steal money from investors.

The OP says to assume that the site in his example IS provably fair.
bitbaby
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 812
Merit: 1000



View Profile WWW
January 26, 2015, 06:04:25 AM
 #27

When you win, you get the stake
When you lose, you lose to yourself.

Other tiny players can only win when they win  Undecided (dumb sentence, but I hope you get my point)

The owners of the site can increase their profit by increasing the betting volume. The only thing they really lose is the transaction fee I just figured.

I see what you mean OP and I think it makes a certain sense.

(Lithium)
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 368
Merit: 250


View Profile
January 26, 2015, 08:30:49 AM
 #28

Once I read a thread about dice cheating, it says the site admin can control the result, and admin can use new accounts to steal money from investors.

makes some sense. The admin knows the server seed, so his sock puppet could always win, making the site go bankruptcy while he still has coins
fox19891989
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 840
Merit: 1000



View Profile
January 26, 2015, 09:26:17 AM
 #29

Once I read a thread about dice cheating, it says the site admin can control the result, and admin can use new accounts to steal money from investors.

The OP says to assume that the site in his example IS provably fair.

No, the result is modifiable, and the is also provably fair. My friend opened a dice site in 2013, and he cheated so the scandal was famous in China. And the site IS also provably fair.
ranochigo
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1610
Merit: 1118

Somewhat inactive.


View Profile WWW
January 26, 2015, 10:41:14 AM
 #30

Once I read a thread about dice cheating, it says the site admin can control the result, and admin can use new accounts to steal money from investors.
Many sites have been marked as scam for this. Sites can easily manipulate results, nothing stops them from doing so, you would require lots and lots of trust for people to invest in you. For sites like just-dice, doolgus have been well known before the site was even opened. That is what caused people to invest in his site, without trust nothing is possible. Just recently, a scam site called dicebitco.in has been found to be skipping nonce and cheating investors money. They blamed it on the previous developer who inserted malicious code. His activity seems shady and thankfully the site is shut down.

ninjaboon
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1974
Merit: 1000



View Profile WWW
January 26, 2015, 11:50:01 AM
 #31

I think the only way to scam is running with the funds... Provably fair covers many trust issues.

one way to reduce chances of the OP with running away with your hard earn btc is to use a trusted escrow to hold the funds.

sherbyspark
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 910
Merit: 1000


View Profile
January 26, 2015, 12:41:25 PM
 #32

I think the only way to scam is running with the funds... Provably fair covers many trust issues.

one way to reduce chances of the OP with running away with your hard earn btc is to use a trusted escrow to hold the funds.

Using a multisig wallet would work as well. But I think the site owner would always still be in control of some of the funds to process withdrawls.
rolldice.io
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 42
Merit: 0


View Profile WWW
January 27, 2015, 06:52:54 AM
 #33

I think the only way to scam is running with the funds... Provably fair covers many trust issues.

one way to reduce chances of the OP with running away with your hard earn btc is to use a trusted escrow to hold the funds.

This is what we are attempting to do, amongst other things. Anyone tried our site yet ?
We added an on chat tip-bot/faucet feature, it rains several thousand satoshies every now and then to active users  Cool
ninjaboon
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1974
Merit: 1000



View Profile WWW
January 27, 2015, 07:13:07 AM
 #34

I think the only way to scam is running with the funds... Provably fair covers many trust issues.

one way to reduce chances of the OP with running away with your hard earn btc is to use a trusted escrow to hold the funds.

This is what we are attempting to do, amongst other things. Anyone tried our site yet ?
We added an on chat tip-bot/faucet feature, it rains several thousand satoshies every now and then to active users  Cool

played on your site earlier before the maintenance. will try again soon.

uki
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1274
Merit: 1000


cryptojunk bag holder


View Profile
January 27, 2015, 10:08:32 AM
 #35

Once I read a thread about dice cheating, it says the site admin can control the result, and admin can use new accounts to steal money from investors.
Many sites have been marked as scam for this. Sites can easily manipulate results, nothing stops them from doing so, you would require lots and lots of trust for people to invest in you. For sites like just-dice, doolgus have been well known before the site was even opened. That is what caused people to invest in his site, without trust nothing is possible. Just recently, a scam site called dicebitco.in has been found to be skipping nonce and cheating investors money. They blamed it on the previous developer who inserted malicious code. His activity seems shady and thankfully the site is shut down.
well, but once the malicious code is inserted, the dice stops being provably fair (correct me if I am wrong). So the main issue is how much you can trust the dice site operator? Secondly, to have publicly available long enough observation window on the roll results (test of provability) so that you can make your own idea on how good the site is.

this space is intentionally left blank
ranochigo
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1610
Merit: 1118

Somewhat inactive.


View Profile WWW
January 27, 2015, 11:22:40 AM
 #36

Once I read a thread about dice cheating, it says the site admin can control the result, and admin can use new accounts to steal money from investors.
Many sites have been marked as scam for this. Sites can easily manipulate results, nothing stops them from doing so, you would require lots and lots of trust for people to invest in you. For sites like just-dice, doolgus have been well known before the site was even opened. That is what caused people to invest in his site, without trust nothing is possible. Just recently, a scam site called dicebitco.in has been found to be skipping nonce and cheating investors money. They blamed it on the previous developer who inserted malicious code. His activity seems shady and thankfully the site is shut down.
well, but once the malicious code is inserted, the dice stops being provably fair (correct me if I am wrong). So the main issue is how much you can trust the dice site operator? Secondly, to have publicly available long enough observation window on the roll results (test of provability) so that you can make your own idea on how good the site is.
Well, anyone who have access to the server can make changes to the website, including developers, they can very easily modify the provably fair system and cheat investor's money. Site owners will not probably allow third party to review their source code before making changes, you would very likely have to just trust them.

paradoxal420
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 229
Merit: 100


View Profile
January 27, 2015, 11:28:01 AM
 #37

Many bitcoin gambling sites state that they are provable fair.
Let's assume they are.

But what if they bet on their own game many many times, wouldn't they increase their profit by doing so?
If they create the highest betting volume, they have a higher stake in the whole game.

Do I miss something?


I don't think that there is any possibility of cheating when game is provably fair..
Here it is well described:

https://satoshidice.com/provably-fair/

The site operator could still cheat the investors. By knowing the server seeds they could predict any roll outcome and drain the bankroll. Checkout our site https://rolldice.io, we developed a solution specifically to this problem, also checkout our thread at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=920704.0

Correct me if I'm wrong but your site isn't provably fair and I showed you this.. lol

▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄▄
PRIMEDICE
The Premier Bitcoin Gambling Experience - PRIMEDICE 3 HAS LAUNCHED @PrimeDice
▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
rolldice.io
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 42
Merit: 0


View Profile WWW
January 27, 2015, 11:39:11 AM
 #38

Many bitcoin gambling sites state that they are provable fair.
Let's assume they are.

But what if they bet on their own game many many times, wouldn't they increase their profit by doing so?
If they create the highest betting volume, they have a higher stake in the whole game.

Do I miss something?


I don't think that there is any possibility of cheating when game is provably fair..
Here it is well described:

https://satoshidice.com/provably-fair/

The site operator could still cheat the investors. By knowing the server seeds they could predict any roll outcome and drain the bankroll. Checkout our site https://rolldice.io, we developed a solution specifically to this problem, also checkout our thread at https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=920704.0

Correct me if I'm wrong but your site isn't provably fair and I showed you this.. lol

Check our Fair page, you will find a video which shows you how to do a manual verification.  Our site is 100% provably fair, please do not spread false informations.
Pages: « 1 [2]  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!