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Author Topic: Hyundai putting a hydrogen fuell cell car into production  (Read 1104 times)
Lethn (OP)
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October 16, 2013, 01:42:27 PM
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I'm a great believer in solutions like Hydrogen Fuel Cells, it looks like Hyundai are now doing a hydrogen fuel cell car as well as Toyota.

http://www.hyundai.co.uk/about-us/environment/hydrogen-fuel-cell#fuel_cell_farm

All of you who bought hybrids and crappy charge up electric cars are suckers.
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October 16, 2013, 03:40:53 PM
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Make a tiburon with hydrogen fuel then I'll be interested

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October 17, 2013, 06:02:22 AM
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"Powered by renewable energy"? Huh? Hydrogen fuel cells, in case nobody figured it out, are powered by hydrogen gas. Hydrogen gas is a substance which does not exist naturally on Earth (except as trace atmospheric gases), and must be manufactured artificially. The most common industrial method for producing hydrogen is reforming methane (similar processes are also used to produce hydrogen from other hydrocarbons (fossil fuels), but methane is the most common), which (besides producing greenhouse gases), is pointless for producing fuel for use in cars because methane is already a perfectly suitable alternative fuel for car engines. Using that methane to produce hydrogen wastes energy resulting in even more greenhouse gas emissions than simply burning it as fuel directly.

The other way of producing hydrogen gas is by electrolysis of water, which isn't commonly done because it requires vast amounts of energy, and if that energy comes from fossil fuels, you have exactly the same problem, only many times worse.

Hydrogen is not a renewable or clean energy source. It is more economical than other fuels in certain applications, but it is not a solution to either dependence on fossil fuels or greenhouse gas emissions.

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Lethn (OP)
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October 17, 2013, 06:09:56 AM
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You need to look up more about hydrogen fuel cells, the reaction is between hydrogen and oxygen which is why it's called a hydrogen fuel cell and it just so happens that these two gases are in water and of course water is one of the most abundant liquids on our planet.

This youtube video looks about right but if anyone here is a scientist post if you can find a better one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AtN0XZLrQ8

There is no electricity involved, I do agree that a lot of electric generations are stupid though like with hybrids or electric cars but as far as I know this one is definitely legit, you're going to have to go and find some proper evidence to make those kind of claims about Hydrogen Fuel Cells.
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October 17, 2013, 06:38:40 AM
 #5

Oy. Roll Eyes *dope slaps Lethn*

I know how hydrogen fuel cells work, and in fact made no claims whatsoever about them (other than that they're fuelled by hydrogen). I'm making claims about hydrogen gas, of which you will notice your video was careful to avoid explaining the byproducts of its production. Seriously, if you think hydrogen can be extracted from water without consuming more energy than you can obtain by reacting hydrogen with oxygen in a fuel cell, then I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

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October 17, 2013, 07:39:26 AM
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Exactly Foxpup. Until we have fusion power which will give us practically unlimited cheap energy, hydrogen production is just too costly.

I've got a little toy hydrogen car. And a hydrogen station that generates the gas from a little solar panel. It takes a good 20 minutes to fill up the little tiny gas bladder with enough hydrogen to then power the car for about 30 seconds! It is a fun little toy that shows how a fuel cell works, but it takes a lot of energy to produce!

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Lethn (OP)
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October 17, 2013, 10:02:30 AM
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Oy. Roll Eyes *dope slaps Lethn*

I know how hydrogen fuel cells work, and in fact made no claims whatsoever about them (other than that they're fuelled by hydrogen). I'm making claims about hydrogen gas, of which you will notice your video was careful to avoid explaining the byproducts of its production. Seriously, if you think hydrogen can be extracted from water without consuming more energy than you can obtain by reacting hydrogen with oxygen in a fuel cell, then I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

The byproduct is water damnit they say that and I just realised that this is something that people bicker about on the internet a lot >_<
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October 17, 2013, 10:56:31 AM
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The byproduct is water damnit they say that and I just realised that this is something that people bicker about on the internet a lot >_<
Do I need to slap you harder? The fuel cell produces water as its exhaust, but it requires hydrogen gas as fuel. I'm talking about the gas. Where do you get it from? You get oil from oil wells; you get natural gas from gas wells; you get water from water wells; but there's no such thing as a hydrogen well. So where do you suppose hydrogen comes from? Almost all hydrogen gas on Earth comes directly from fossil fuels, in a process that produces large amounts of greenhouse gases. The small amount that doesn't come directly from fossil fuels is produced from water in a process that consumes a vast amount of energy, which means either fossil fuels or nuclear power, since there's nowhere near enough renewable energy production to meet industrial demand for hydrogen. There is no clean, renewable source of hydrogen gas in sufficient quantities to use as fuel.

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Lethn (OP)
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October 17, 2013, 11:28:25 AM
 #9

Don't you remember your bloody periodic tables? Science was the one thing I was taught half-decently at school.

Hydrogen and Oxygen combine together to make water, the hydrogen is already in the water we use so if hydrogen fuel cells use a reaction involving hydrogen and oxygen then the stuff that come out is water, yes we do have hydrogen gas in something other than fossil fuels that's what's in the water we drink we just haven't been able to use it up until recently, there was also the whole buzz about graphene awhile back and that's something that is all over our planet in abundance but we just didn't notice it.

You also have the same situation with air where you have an amount of nitrogen mixed in, it's just a matter of being able to divide it up so we can use that and we've almost got the knowledge to efficiently do that now, you've got some re-learning of chemistry to do you don't know as much as you think as for the process of starting everything they already said in that video they start up the machinery with the electricity generated from the process itself, there are no fossil fuels involved if these fuel cells are what people claim them to be.
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October 17, 2013, 11:39:02 AM
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Have a read... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy

Specifically... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_economy#Efficiency_as_an_automotive_fuel


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October 17, 2013, 11:57:33 AM
 #11

Science was the one thing I was taught half-decently at school.
"Half" being the operative word.

You also have the same situation with air where you have an amount of nitrogen mixed in, it's just a matter of being able to divide it up so we can use that and we've almost got the technology to efficiently do that now, you've got some re-learning of chemistry to do
You're the one who's got to relearn their chemistry, if you don't know the difference between a mixture and a compound. Air contains a mixture of oxygen and nitrogen, meaning the two elements are not chemically bonded to each other. Water, on the other hand, is a compound, meaning the hydrogen and oxygen are chemically bonded. That means it's impossible to separate the two without breaking the chemical bonds, and that requires energy. That's why combining hydrogen and oxygen in the first place releases energy. The energy released by combining hydrogen and oxygen into water is the same as the energy required to separate water into hydrogen and oxygen. The same. Not more. You can't produce more hydrogen from water than you're consuming, so if you want to produce more hydrogen, you need an additional source of energy. In fact, you can't even produce the same amount of hydrogen as you're consuming, since some of the energy is wasted as heat and the rest is being used to power your motor.

you don't know as much as you think as for the process of starting everything they already said in that video they start up the machinery with the electricity generated from the process itself, there are no fossil fuels involved if these fuel cells are what people claim them to be.
You don't know as much as you think if you think perpetual motion machines of the first kind are possible. No such claim was made in that video.

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October 17, 2013, 04:12:13 PM
 #12

Nice:) Hope we get self-driving cars soon as well!
Lethn (OP)
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October 18, 2013, 05:34:23 AM
 #13

Aha! There we go, sorry for the late reply, knew if I searched around while I was less tired I'd find what I was looking for better.

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2013-08/05/hydrogen-gas-solar-reactor

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Scientists do this using a metal oxide, which is a metal that has reacted and bonded with oxygen. For example, rust is a metal oxide -- the iron has reacted with the oxygen in the air.

And wait a fucking minute, why are you even arguing the point? Just realised this example was outdated and you would be right if this was the outdated version though you don't necessarily need fossil fuels to burn something at a constant temperature. On the hyundai website they specifically say that they use a mixture of plants and fish in the process and it's been discovered that there are lifeforms which actually produce hydrogen as a byproduct ( something you were ranting about earlier ) and other gases that can be used in fuel as well.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130415182430.htm

I know for a fact that there is bacteria being used for renewable fuel ( I posted it awhile ago actually) and then there is also the algae which is something that has already been talked about a lot recently, methinks you're just trying to be a troll now and are arguing semantics.
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October 18, 2013, 02:37:56 PM
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The bacteria one is interesting in a "human race wiped out after playing god" kind of a way

Production of stuff via genetically modified bacteria is not really anything new.  It's been used for pharmaceutical production (e.g. insulin, clotting factor VIII, hepatitis B vaccines, etc.) since the early 80s.
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