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[Noitev]

This bolded text is entirely wrong. Slots don't check if the bankroll is low, they pay out based on random numbers having nothing to do with what they previously paid out or other games pay out. This is the essence of gambler's fallacy.

I think it does, my IGT gameking, Multistar safari, ex casino game,  I can go into the settings and choose which % of return it can be set to. So it obviously determans what to pay out based on what money its collected. right? else how does it calculate a payout rate?

the payout rate is the expected average and doesn't change according to the previous play. for example, if I pay someone 5x their bet if they roll a 6 on a fair 6-sided die and they roll a 6 on the first roll, the die doesn't suddenly start rolling 1,2,3,4s and 5s to make up for it, it's simply what's expected and after an arbitrarily long number of rolls, the result tends to be around 0.833x the total amount wagered. The way real casinos make money is by gambling themselves, except they have a positive expected return (the key word being expected). They can be up a lot of money or down a lot of money, but on average, they make slightly more than what they are wagering. There have been many times where casinos are down a lot due to a high betting baccarat player, jackpot winner or other lucky player, but they don't suddenly start making games pay 50% on average to make their money back since then players won't come. Instead they stick with the same odds as usual and hope to make it back on the long run.

more can be learned here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_fallacy

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[Noitev]

Should you be punished because someone else was lucky? A casino like that is literally stealing money from you.

Lets reverse this statement - "Should you be lucky because someone else was 'punished' (lost)?" Is this lucky person then considered to be 'stealing' from the casino because someone else before him lost?

When you walk into a Casino you have no idea whether the 'house' is in front or behind. You put your money in the slot and you hope the players before you lost, and lost big, because you know the odds of that slot paying out are 'likely' to be higher. You also hope that slot hasn't just paid out big for the same reason. You might say well maybe the slot is on a 'payout' streak? Maybe it is, maybe it isnt, but how can you know for sure either way? Its all about probability at the end of the day and no-one can ever know if they are about to win or lose before they gamble - ever. Thats why its called a 'gamble'. No matter what the game or where you play. This casino has a 98% payout and thats as good as you will get anywhere.

The thing you have to understand is that slot's random number generators have no idea what the last numbers they made are. they are just as likely to pay 3 jackpots in a row as they are to pay 3 jackpots 6 months apart from each other. The thing with slots is that the odds aren't clear when you play them usually, but if your casino does indeed pay 98%, than that means, at all times, it should be the same odds. That means if a slot jackpot is 1000 credits, but the bank only has 950 so it decides to say that you can win the jackpot, even though you can't, and that the odds are 98%, even though removing the jackpot lowers the odds, then you are stealing from players, because you are advertising 98% returns when it is really lower. your games should all be independent and if another player wins 110% that he wagered, that doesn't mean the casino has 110% returns and should short pay the next player to make it average to 98%, it means he got lucky and the odds should remain 98%. If your upset that you lost money running a casino, just understand you are rolling dice too.

[bit777]

Should you be punished because someone else was lucky?

Thats how gambling machines work, a machine thats just had a huge payout will not give another big payout  until its been filled up again.

This is the process of slot machine manufacturing: The company decides how many icons/lines/bonus games should the slot have. They give the job to a mathematician who builds a PAR sheet with a payout table formula and exact distribution of the icons. Then his formula is ran through a simulator, which simulates millions of games, to be able to determine projected return. Based on the paytable different games have different gameplay. This is called Volatility Index. The more Volatile a slot machine is, the more ups and downs it will have throughout time (hot and cold periods, where if a machine hasn't paid in a long time it is likely in a cold period which is about to end), the less volatile - the more balanced play it will have (frequent small wins and no big surprises in terms of player wins). Usually the mathematicians create 3 or 4 payout levels (88%,92%,95%,98%), which are then set as an option in the slot management software for the operator to choose and change whenever he likes (most likely what you are referring to when saying you can change %s in your IGT game). However, the game is entirely random, and payouts are not based on previous losses in any case. Most slot manufacturers (like IGT, Williams, Playtech) guarantee that the machine will have a stable house return within 10,000,000 spins. In the short term, a casino can lose millions, and previous play is not a factor.

Posting this for educational purposes.

[Oldminer]

Should you be punished because someone else was lucky? A casino like that is literally stealing money from you.

Lets reverse this statement - "Should you be lucky because someone else was 'punished' (lost)?" Is this lucky person then considered to be 'stealing' from the casino because someone else before him lost?

When you walk into a Casino you have no idea whether the 'house' is in front or behind. You put your money in the slot and you hope the players before you lost, and lost big, because you know the odds of that slot paying out are 'likely' to be higher. You also hope that slot hasn't just paid out big for the same reason. You might say well maybe the slot is on a 'payout' streak? Maybe it is, maybe it isnt, but how can you know for sure either way? Its all about probability at the end of the day and no-one can ever know if they are about to win or lose before they gamble - ever. Thats why its called a 'gamble'. No matter what the game or where you play. This casino has a 98% payout and thats as good as you will get anywhere.

The thing you have to understand is that slot's random number generators have no idea what the last numbers they made are. they are just as likely to pay 3 jackpots in a row as they are to pay 3 jackpots 6 months apart from each other. The thing with slots is that the odds aren't clear when you play them usually, but if your casino does indeed pay 98%, than that means, at all times, it should be the same odds. That means if a slot jackpot is 1000 credits, but the bank only has 950 so it decides to say that you can win the jackpot, even though you can't, and that the odds are 98%, even though removing the jackpot lowers the odds, then you are stealing from players, because you are advertising 98% returns when it is really lower. your games should all be independent and if another player wins 110% that he wagered, that doesn't mean the casino has 110% returns and should short pay the next player to make it average to 98%, it means he got lucky and the odds should remain 98%. If your upset that you lost money running a casino, just understand you are rolling dice too.

For this scenario to occur, the bank would need to not only have not enough money available to pay the jackpot (which Redcoin said is unlikely to occur in his previous post), but the jackpot would also need to be 'overdue' ie: it has passed its pre-programmed random 1:10,000 payout ratio. RED would need to confirm this but I suspect what would still occur in this instance is once the funds are there, the jackpot is paid, and the next jackpot is paid earlier as well, since the 10,000 count started when the previous 10,000 finished (even though the jackpot wasnt paid until spin 13,000 for example). What you need to realise is we're not talking about balls spinning in a bucket here that fall out randomly...these are computer generated programs that monitor bank balances, jackpots, & payouts. Chance still plays a big part in whether an individual wins or loses, but its determined by a computer, not by the 'random' roll of a dice (though I'm sure lots of random numbers are thrown around as part of the programming). A good thing about a computer managing the 'randomness' however is you are guaranteed a 98% payout. You wont get that assurance from balls dropping out of a bucket. You could get a lot more sure - but you could get a lot less than 98% too.

[Oldminer]

Heads or tails? What will it be?   

 

[dooglus]

Heads or tails? What ill it be?

Is this one fair?  It seems a simple coin toss would be easy enough to program to be fair.

Or does it make sure the player loses if the casino has been unlucky recently?

[Oldminer]

Whats your star sign?  

[Oldminer]

Heads or tails? What ill it be?

Is this one fair?  It seems a simple coin toss would be easy enough to program to be fair.

Or does it make sure the player loses if the casino has been unlucky recently?

All the games are fair.

The casino has a 98% payout, so for every 100 credits bet, 98 are put back into the prize pool.

[Oldminer]

Heads or tails? What ill it be?

Is this one fair?  It seems a simple coin toss would be easy enough to program to be fair.

Or does it make sure the player loses if the casino has been unlucky recently?

All the games are fair.

The casino has a 98% payout, so for every 100 credits bet, 98 are put back into the prize pool.

Fair =/= provably fair. Can you prove that a game is fair?

The best way is to prove it for yourself. Claim the 100 free credits and make your own judgement.

[Oldminer]

I played (I did the multiplier wheel with 99/100 odds and I lost a third of the time I spun it. also playd the coin flip game and got 15 tails in a row and it somehow glitched and let me accumulate a negative balance.).

Thanks, we are still finding the odd bug with some of the game but are working towards fixing them as they are found.

[dooglus]

All the games are fair.

That's not what Redcoin says.  He said earlier that if there haven't been enough losers recently then it's impossible to win:

Not sure how to be "provably fair". Its a different type of game, and only pays out when there are losers, same way as any modern slot machine.

If you win 98 points, it means somone has lost 100 points

I presume that means that if there isn't enough to pay out a winning coin toss, you won't get a winning coin toss.  Is that correct?

[Oldminer]

With provably fair systems being rather simple to implement, I don't see why any serious casino would omit it and why any better would go to a site that hasn't taken the minimal effort to implement it.

If this provably fair 'concept' (& please dont try to claim its anything more than that) is so important to you, perhaps you should go and play somewhere else wheres its in place. I sincerely wish you the best of luck - your probably going to need it with most other forms of gambling/casinos paying out a lot less than 98%.

As is quoted elsewhere in a discussion on the subject of 'provably fair' gambling here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=311404.60

"But with any of the dice games, how can you tell if the winning seed was generated before or after your bet and roll? Or how can you tell if the first seed generated (which might have been a win) wasn't discarded and regenerated until your roll would create a loss instead ?  As long as in the long term the payout matches what the house odds claim to be, how would you tell that that the long odd bets were performing as promised? If the stated odds are 1 in 1000, but after 200,000 roles, only 900 wins occurred , how would one know if that was the luck of the house, or a random number generator or other logic wasn't subtly altered to benefit the house?"

In my opinion, 'provably fair' is just a scam run by some gambling sites to instil confidence in the customer - nothing more (but people can do their own research on the topic & discuss it further in other threads in this forum if their interested). Lets rest the discussion on the subject in this thread here

[Oldminer]

Do we still get some free credits to try your website? I don't mind gambling with actual BTC, but not before I get to try it out.

Click my link below & create an account, & I'll be happy to send you some

[Oldminer]

With provably fair systems being rather simple to implement, I don't see why any serious casino would omit it and why any better would go to a site that hasn't taken the minimal effort to implement it.

If this provably fair 'concept' (& please dont try to claim its anything more than that) is so important to you, perhaps you should go and play somewhere else wheres its in place. I sincerely wish you the best of luck - your probably going to need it with most other forms of gambling/casinos paying out a lot less than 98%.

As is quoted elsewhere in a discussion on the subject of 'provably fair' gambling here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=311404.60

"But with any of the dice games, how can you tell if the winning seed was generated before or after your bet and roll? Or how can you tell if the first seed generated (which might have been a win) wasn't discarded and regenerated until your roll would create a loss instead ?  As long as in the long term the payout matches what the house odds claim to be, how would you tell that that the long odd bets were performing as promised? If the stated odds are 1 in 1000, but after 200,000 roles, only 900 wins occurred , how would one know if that was the luck of the house, or a random number generator or other logic wasn't subtly altered to benefit the house?"

In my opinion, 'provably fair' is just a scam run by some gambling sites to instil confidence in the customer - nothing more (but people can do their own research on the topic & discuss it further in other threads in this forum if their interested). Lets rest the discussion on the subject in this thread here

Quoted for those few individuals that seem to have missed it.

[Oldminer]

Play Joker Poker  

[Oldminer]

ANNOUNCEMENT

Bitwincasino will not be subscribing to the 'provably fair' concept, since in its current state at least, it is open to manipulation. The initial 'hash seed' (which is crucial to the 'proof' of this system) not being revealed to the player until after the results are shown is but one of the many problems with this 'proof of fairness in play', that seems to be peddled by a few individuals.

Bitwincasino will not mislead customers into believing they have a fair chance of winning by hiding behind a concept that is flawed and open to manipulation.

thankyou

[nthoangga]

Registered with username : nthoangga

Will try this out when I get my bonus 

[Oldminer]

Registered with username : nthoangga

Will try this out when I get my bonus 

Coins sent

[Redcoin]

I played (I did the multiplier wheel with 99/100 odds and I lost a third of the time I spun it.

You misunderstood the game, there is no 99% odds. if you fill 50% of the area, it pays 20x the bet, so you have a 1 in 20 chance to win, or 95% chance to lose. 75% of the area pays 10x the bet, 90% chance to lose. the maximum area pays 1.3x the bet, so you have a 70% chance to win. so that why you lose 1/3 of the time. So to find the odds of winning just look at what the payout is.

[Noitev]

I played (I did the multiplier wheel with 99/100 odds and I lost a third of the time I spun it.

You misunderstood the game, there is no 99% odds. if you fill 50% of the area, it pays 20x the bet, so you have a 1 in 20 chance to win, or 95% chance to lose. 75% of the area pays 10x the bet, 90% chance to lose. the maximum area pays 1.3x the bet, so you have a 70% chance to win. so that why you lose 1/3 of the time. So to find the odds of winning just look at what the payout is.

So i did. Still the backend is horrible.