Alpha Technology Litecoin (Scrypt) ASIC Miner Order Batch 1 Now!

[brian_23452]

Actually, you signed a contract that specifically states you are NOT entitled to compensation for their negligence.  

But if it contradicts consumer law, then the contract isn't valid. That's like saying you can commit a criminal act just because a contract says you can. It's erroneous. Their legal team blurb is nonsense. You take their T&Cs to a real lawyer and they'll tear it apart.

I realize that here in the USA contract law tends to be much stricter than in other parts of the world.  Even so, I would be very curious what part of UK law you are referring to when you say such a clause is illegal.  Do you actually have a law in mind (and if so, which one) or are you just talking out of your ass?  Again, I realize this is coming from the USA and not the UK, but virtually every warranty you get here specifically excludes compensation for incidental damages (example, you buy a server and it breaks.  They can be made to pay for the server, but not the money you lost from not having a working server).  They have been consistently upheld by the courts, and in most cases so have TOSs.  Now we do know that UK law makes their clause about no returns illegal, but I would be very surprised if you had a law that makes it illegal to bar incidental damages.  I'm always willing to learn though, which law do you speak of?

But see here is the thing, and this is why this sort of shit continues to happen.  Now, I will be the first to say these AT guys are a bunch of scumbags.  In fact, I HAVE been saying it the whole time.  But at the same time, isn't there at least some level of personal responsibility that goes into this?  I mean, you read a contract where they write right into the contract that they can purposefully rip you off and they are not responsible, legal or illegal, that didn't give anyone pause before sending them thousands of dollars?  The fact that exactly 0 of these preorders have ever gone well for the customer, that didn't give anyone pause?  I mean, GAW miners just released yet another one of these preorders about a week ago and I have seen some of the same people who got ripped off here, post over there that they preordered from them.  It's like, wtf really?

Well, I don't know about the US law, but in the UK, under the sales & goods act, the product has to be fit for purpose. If it breaks because it's a piece of badly made garbage, then the product does not meet your expectations, and is therefore covered under that condition. If the product specifications do not match what's been advertised, again, same principle applies.

You're right in that responsibility ends at that point, and that you can't really claim for damages caused as a result of the product not being fit for purpose, but the seller is entirely responsible for product doing what is expected of it.

Right but we aren't talking about replacing a broken product.  We are talking about compensation for lost revenue resulting from a broken product.  There is a huge difference between me selling you a 10k server, it breaking, and me owing you 10k, and me selling you a 10k server, it breaking, and me owing you 50mil in lost revenue from not having a server.  The latter is what that guy is asking for, and there is simply no jurisdiction anywhere that he is going to get it from. 
Thats just one problem.   There are many, many other problems with the contract, all of which I have already listed previously and so I won't get into again.  The fact is people like that didn't read wtf they were signing.  Which is fine if you're buying a 50 dollar video game on steam or something, but if your spending thousands of dollars.....kind of a bad idea.

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[Searing]

Well have they gone belly up yet...or are they waiting till around Aug 1st to announce such...

ie no prototype

ie no info

ie no product

Searing

[markyminer]

The market cap of LTC isnt a good determination of if new equipment is a good idea or not. Folks were mining BTC with GPU's and CPU's when it wasn't worth anything. It may impact ROI, but that's just a may which is short-term, and even then the gold-strikers have to risk something.

I can see now why KnC made the Titans non-refundable.  No hedging there.

yeah my timing was epic on the titan as well...2 weeks before KNC went to the dark side and it all went to hell

I've learned to read TOS's now (the no refund I knew about but trusted them silly me ..the 90 warrenty caugtht me by surprise!)

(i such a funny little clueless hairless human primate....I never learn...scratches crotch)

Searing

Can you provide any links to threads about the issues with KNC Titans?  I have been out of the loop since my son was born in Feb but I do have 100mh of Alpha-T vipers , deposit paid waiting for cc payment system to pay the balance. I did consider cancelling the A-T order and ordering a batch 2 KNC Mini Titan but was unaware they are also playing the no info games?

M

[Searing]

The market cap of LTC isnt a good determination of if new equipment is a good idea or not. Folks were mining BTC with GPU's and CPU's when it wasn't worth anything. It may impact ROI, but that's just a may which is short-term, and even then the gold-strikers have to risk something.

I can see now why KnC made the Titans non-refundable.  No hedging there.

yeah my timing was epic on the titan as well...2 weeks before KNC went to the dark side and it all went to hell

I've learned to read TOS's now (the no refund I knew about but trusted them silly me ..the 90 warrenty caugtht me by surprise!)

(i such a funny little clueless hairless human primate....I never learn...scratches crotch)

Searing

Can you provide any links to threads about the issues with KNC Titans?  I have been out of the loop since my son was born in Feb but I do have 100mh of Alpha-T vipers , deposit paid waiting for cc payment system to pay the balance. I did consider cancelling the A-T order and ordering a batch 2 KNC Mini Titan but was unaware they are also playing the no info games?

M

well no idea KNC has kinda gone to the dark side on stuff....little info....neptunes were a mess with power supply issues check out the threads to catch up

as to the Titan I may do ok..better then if i woulda kept my neptune customer appreciation issue .....looks like they won't make ROI before the rest of the bitcoin dump is

if you got a 1st batch Titan you are likely ok..but not sure about getting a min titan now with all the asic dump in bitcoin and scrypt

no clue...but make your own deicisons on the knc thread

as for my Titan I am just hoping it arrives not in a pile of parts (3th jupiter option) and/or like the neptune needing 'specfic' power supplies and actual power plug mods or splitters to get the unit to fire up (see thread on bitcoin talk it is a zoo)

so as to the Titan...champ or chump with no refund and only 3 month warrenty know ...no way to know

also they have already stated Titan is the 'last consumer product' imho they are just gonna go design chip to their farm period fast/easy most $$$

but don't know scrypt we might be ok ..bitcoin miner in aug/sept with all the crap hitting the skids...could be real rough

Searing

er links ...the below is the standard link you likely know about
on bitcointalk

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170332.0;topicseen

just do a search of KNC etc there are more

so sad knc it is like they were a Nun and decided to become a stripper cause it paid better..man was i blindsided

Searing

[coinits]

Actually, you signed a contract that specifically states you are NOT entitled to compensation for their negligence. 

But if it contradicts consumer law, then the contract isn't valid. That's like saying you can commit a criminal act just because a contract says you can. It's erroneous. Their legal team blurb is nonsense. You take their T&Cs to a real lawyer and they'll tear it apart.

I realize that here in the USA contract law tends to be much stricter than in other parts of the world.  Even so, I would be very curious what part of UK law you are referring to when you say such a clause is illegal.  Do you actually have a law in mind (and if so, which one) or are you just talking out of your ass?  Again, I realize this is coming from the USA and not the UK, but virtually every warranty you get here specifically excludes compensation for incidental damages (example, you buy a server and it breaks.  They can be made to pay for the server, but not the money you lost from not having a working server).  They have been consistently upheld by the courts, and in most cases so have TOSs.  Now we do know that UK law makes their clause about no returns illegal, but I would be very surprised if you had a law that makes it illegal to bar incidental damages.  I'm always willing to learn though, which law do you speak of?

But see here is the thing, and this is why this sort of shit continues to happen.  Now, I will be the first to say these AT guys are a bunch of scumbags.  In fact, I HAVE been saying it the whole time.  But at the same time, isn't there at least some level of personal responsibility that goes into this?  I mean, you read a contract where they write right into the contract that they can purposefully rip you off and they are not responsible, legal or illegal, that didn't give anyone pause before sending them thousands of dollars?  The fact that exactly 0 of these preorders have ever gone well for the customer, that didn't give anyone pause?  I mean, GAW miners just released yet another one of these preorders about a week ago and I have seen some of the same people who got ripped off here, post over there that they preordered from them.  It's like, wtf really?

Contracts are not protection from consumer fraud. No matter what type of legalese and spin is spun fraud is fraud and the courts would throw said contract in the trash. The butthurt on this will be nasty!

[vesperwillow]

Searing, BFL has been successfully sued numerous times, 25 or more. There's a couple of threads on here which contain the links to the court cases. It's just not well published because BFL does a good job with avoiding the blacklight, and lots of people don't dig deep enough. The Neptunes finally shipped, but you have to admit that despite needing specific power supplies (which was a known factor prior to pre-ordering), they run well. And they run faster than spec. The Titans I'm sure will be similar.

As to the T&C, in few cultured civilizations is it legal to have a term which says the OEM is free from neglect or products outside of spec. I forget the actual legal clause, but you can't tie someone's hands like that. It's not legal in the US, and the UK's consumer laws are even tighter than the US's. Further, imports and customs requirements dictate that the product fall in line with the country's laws in which it's being imported. This is why a new OEM setting up for global shipping is under a lot of scrutiny to get things right. It's another reason why AT has come under such focus, because a lot of folks are going "yeah, that won't pass".

That's part of why the CE process is so vital, it shows that yes, this product is within spec. They didn't even talk about certification until weeks after it was brought up.

I don't believe they opened with malicious intentions, but they became overwhelmed because they were poorly prepared. Then again, who knows with how shifty they've become lately.

[vesperwillow]

Another thought which came across was, I wonder if their company is insured? If not, that could be disastrous for folks.

Pure speculation: They get their equipment together finally, and because they're in a less-than-savory neighborhood, something happens and all of the equipment is "stolen". They're left without a product. Without insurance, they can't pay anyone back. And their doors close.

[nwfella]

Fiaz (July 02, 2014): "Shipping is not expected to start on the 15th"

So we know the "optimistic" scenario won't fire.

It's doubtful at this point we will even see a working prototype by the 15th!

[brian_23452]

Actually, you signed a contract that specifically states you are NOT entitled to compensation for their negligence. 

But if it contradicts consumer law, then the contract isn't valid. That's like saying you can commit a criminal act just because a contract says you can. It's erroneous. Their legal team blurb is nonsense. You take their T&Cs to a real lawyer and they'll tear it apart.

I realize that here in the USA contract law tends to be much stricter than in other parts of the world.  Even so, I would be very curious what part of UK law you are referring to when you say such a clause is illegal.  Do you actually have a law in mind (and if so, which one) or are you just talking out of your ass?  Again, I realize this is coming from the USA and not the UK, but virtually every warranty you get here specifically excludes compensation for incidental damages (example, you buy a server and it breaks.  They can be made to pay for the server, but not the money you lost from not having a working server).  They have been consistently upheld by the courts, and in most cases so have TOSs.  Now we do know that UK law makes their clause about no returns illegal, but I would be very surprised if you had a law that makes it illegal to bar incidental damages.  I'm always willing to learn though, which law do you speak of?

But see here is the thing, and this is why this sort of shit continues to happen.  Now, I will be the first to say these AT guys are a bunch of scumbags.  In fact, I HAVE been saying it the whole time.  But at the same time, isn't there at least some level of personal responsibility that goes into this?  I mean, you read a contract where they write right into the contract that they can purposefully rip you off and they are not responsible, legal or illegal, that didn't give anyone pause before sending them thousands of dollars?  The fact that exactly 0 of these preorders have ever gone well for the customer, that didn't give anyone pause?  I mean, GAW miners just released yet another one of these preorders about a week ago and I have seen some of the same people who got ripped off here, post over there that they preordered from them.  It's like, wtf really?

Contracts are not protection from consumer fraud. No matter what type of legalese and spin is spun fraud is fraud and the courts would throw said contract in the trash. The butthurt on this will be nasty!

But there was no fraud committed.  That's the part you can't seem to get through your head.  You keep ignoring all the points I've mentioned, and that's fine, you don't owe me any answers.  But when you sue this company for fraud their lawyers are going to ask you the same questions in court and then you will have to answer.  It is going to be very difficult to prove they delivered late when the contract you signed specifically says there is no guaranteed delivery date.  And either way at best you are looking at getting a portion of your money back (most of it is spent already).  There is 0 chance you will get compensatory damages. 

I will agree with you though, the "butthurt on this will be nasty", in fact most of their customers are already feeling it.  I was hoping this would be an [expensive] lesson for those involved, but as I mentioned, some of the exact same people who got raped here are already lining up to get raped again by GAW's preorder.  Some people just like getting raped, I guess. 

[Searing]

Actually, you signed a contract that specifically states you are NOT entitled to compensation for their negligence. 

But if it contradicts consumer law, then the contract isn't valid. That's like saying you can commit a criminal act just because a contract says you can. It's erroneous. Their legal team blurb is nonsense. You take their T&Cs to a real lawyer and they'll tear it apart.

I realize that here in the USA contract law tends to be much stricter than in other parts of the world.  Even so, I would be very curious what part of UK law you are referring to when you say such a clause is illegal.  Do you actually have a law in mind (and if so, which one) or are you just talking out of your ass?  Again, I realize this is coming from the USA and not the UK, but virtually every warranty you get here specifically excludes compensation for incidental damages (example, you buy a server and it breaks.  They can be made to pay for the server, but not the money you lost from not having a working server).  They have been consistently upheld by the courts, and in most cases so have TOSs.  Now we do know that UK law makes their clause about no returns illegal, but I would be very surprised if you had a law that makes it illegal to bar incidental damages.  I'm always willing to learn though, which law do you speak of?

But see here is the thing, and this is why this sort of shit continues to happen.  Now, I will be the first to say these AT guys are a bunch of scumbags.  In fact, I HAVE been saying it the whole time.  But at the same time, isn't there at least some level of personal responsibility that goes into this?  I mean, you read a contract where they write right into the contract that they can purposefully rip you off and they are not responsible, legal or illegal, that didn't give anyone pause before sending them thousands of dollars?  The fact that exactly 0 of these preorders have ever gone well for the customer, that didn't give anyone pause?  I mean, GAW miners just released yet another one of these preorders about a week ago and I have seen some of the same people who got ripped off here, post over there that they preordered from them.  It's like, wtf really?

Contracts are not protection from consumer fraud. No matter what type of legalese and spin is spun fraud is fraud and the courts would throw said contract in the trash. The butthurt on this will be nasty!

But there was no fraud committed.  That's the part you can't seem to get through your head.  You keep ignoring all the points I've mentioned, and that's fine, you don't owe me any answers.  But when you sue this company for fraud their lawyers are going to ask you the same questions in court and then you will have to answer.  It is going to be very difficult to prove they delivered late when the contract you signed specifically says there is no guaranteed delivery date.  And either way at best you are looking at getting a portion of your money back (most of it is spent already).  There is 0 chance you will get compensatory damages. 

I will agree with you though, the "butthurt on this will be nasty", in fact most of their customers are already feeling it.  I was hoping this would be an [expensive] lesson for those involved, but as I mentioned, some of the exact same people who got raped here are already lining up to get raped again by GAW's preorder.  Some people just like getting raped, I guess. 

so what is the deal on the GAW miners and pre-orders same scam?

Searing

[vesperwillow]

The original day 0 terms specified July 2014 for delivery, and specified they'd have working prototypes prior to that. Since then, their design has changed almost 75%, and they haven't met any of their projected milestones. Intent plays a role, and you likely couldn't prove malicious intent, but you could prove negligence. It's how BFL has been sued. So you could bring them to court on negligence in the US, not sure if the UK has similar laws.

I can't speak to the new preorders, but GAW has successfully provided great products.

[benjamin07]

BFL are good people, their name should not be mixed with AT. I love BFL, have many of their hardware.

[Searing]

BFL are good people, their name should not be mixed with AT. I love BFL, have many of their hardware.

well there was 'bound' to be someone who got his stuff on time....but for most of the BFL users after april 2013
it was 1 year and 20 days to get a refund in my case..and I'm the exception on refunds..as an example ordered
a Jally 5gh upgraded it to a 7gh april 12th 2013 the same week "KNC' came into existance...had a KNC miner
on Oct 18th mining 1 btc a day (at least at that point) Unit was 1/2 paid for before the Jally 7gh at $388
arrived on Halloween...i upgraded the rest to a monarch counted as a loss and recently due to BFL court
probation of on of there founders ..got a refund offer and took it

so no BFL sells products since dec 2013 that does not ship till at least 6 months late and never ROI's

good for you if you managed to get BFL to ROI for you.....you are the 'exception' NEO heh

Searing

[Swimmer63]

BFL are good people, their name should not be mixed with AT. I love BFL, have many of their hardware.

Sarcasm?

[AC~DC]

 I must agree that what we endured with BFL should be enough to not preorder ever but, a human is the only animal that stumbles over the same stone more than once ( greed? ) and we just keep doing it over and over.
However I must say that what I got from BFL ( 8 months late, SOB's ) it not only ROI'd but paid itself several times over. And they did developed a good poduct specialy after Josh got fully involved.

Manufacturers are not all thieves, but, even like pool ops is very hard to keep their hands out of the cookie jar sometimes. So it's a hard thin line to walk for some, even if they set out at the beginning meaning well. Keep in mind it's business not charity.
Hate to say it but it comes down to " who takes the least from you " that seems to be what goes on now days.

Between stupidity, bad luck, pourposely stealing then we costumers pay the price if preordering.
Things get worst and harder to deal with on every step of development.
Buy hardare or cloud mining, choose your own poison...

Alpha T. may be another hard pill to swallow, who knows. How many times we need a hit on the head to learn?
I did not order from them but my business partners did ( mayority vote wins )  so I'm ultimatelly affected as well.

The best of luck to us all!

[alphawolf099]

BFL are good people, their name should not be mixed with AT. I love BFL, have many of their hardware.

Well atleast bfl labs gave me a refund i must give them that

When it came to getting a refund from alpha tech after 3 months i only got 132 gbp out of 1635 gbp
and they said i would get a 75% refund - 70 gbp admin fee

But now they are playing dumb and i lost money ( my own fault i guess )

Other then laywers getting involved i guess they still have to deliver miners this month or feel the fanboy wrath

SCAM all the way. But i hope others get the miners

[retro72]

Interestingly, in Alpha's last Annual Return on 02/12/2013 they have 100 ordinary shares, all held by Mohammed Akram. They filed a statement of capital on the 13/05/2014 that said he only had 75 ordinary shares. Did he have to sell 25% of the company to raise operating capital? We won't know who has these shares until they release their annual return on the 31/08/2014.

I doubt these shares alone could have raised enough to pay for the chips, in fact on 22/05/2014 they asked for the balance of payments. This is speculation at this point but if Alpha had to sell off part of the company it definitely would suggest they are in financial difficulties. Unless Mr Akram just wanted a Ferrari

Of course, in the interests of fairness I should add he could have just given them away to a family member or staff. But we won't know until 31/08/2014

[bumface]

i have a wonderfull idea.....

show a working prototype, and shut us up

[Phorna]

You want to see a working prototype? Such a luxury demands... 

Show me bare wafers... manufactured case... anything.  Roughly 3 weeks until pessimistic dispatch date scenario left. The only thing I have noticed is Fiaz that stopped repeating like a mantra "I can assure you we are on track for July dispatch".

[Searing]

heh only 3 weeks left in july and alpha team is saying nothing on this forum or on their site for news since 6/20/14 (render drawings on the news info on www.alpha-t.net)

if things were going well there would be chip/prototype pics...bells/whistles and a parade etc tec

er looks like the boat is sunk already..and they are rowing like 'hell' away as fast as possible

the silence is 'deafening'

Searing