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Author Topic: Signature Campaigns taxes  (Read 23264 times)
tambok
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March 20, 2018, 06:56:50 PM
 #41

Now first of all I live in spain and I'm wondering if someone has ever paid taxes with money acquired from signature campaigns here. I made a decent amount of money a year ago because campaigns were giving 0.03-0.04 per week. I wouldn't really know how to pay taxes if I need to, would this count like a job and how exactly would someone prove they got their bitcoins from signature campaign , seems quite difficult.

it's your bad mate, not all bitcoiners live in the same area, we are from different places around the globe, that is why i'm thankful that in my country crypto is not a big deal, even thou it's making it's name and foundation to be legalized but still hoping that same thing happens that there will be no such excessive amounts of tax paying. we pay taxes through exchange sites Via Express shops, so not a big deal also, they are fair for a transaction fee. Cheesy
Well, we do have different areas and if in their country paying taxes from income from cryptocurrency then you are not obliged to do so and you are free to do what you are earning here, yes here in the Philippines we are grateful that we are not yet obliged to pay taxes.
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gentlemand
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March 20, 2018, 07:16:56 PM
 #42

It is very hard to impose tax on something that cannot be regulated. Thus, bitcoin being a decentralised type of currency falls into that category but this still depends on the laws of the country that you are staying. If the government creates a law or amends a current law prejudicial to bitcoin's existence, they it may be taxable. As of the amount, I also doubt that they may be able to trace it, considering that you receive your bitcoins on a separate wallet.

I'm sure many people make an excellent living selling goat shit. Is that regulated? If you're making a living then it's going to be taxable no matter what you're making a living from.

If it's illegal then it'll remain your wee secret.

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March 20, 2018, 07:34:51 PM
 #43

It is very hard to impose tax on something that cannot be regulated. Thus, bitcoin being a decentralised type of currency falls into that category but this still depends on the laws of the country that you are staying. If the government creates a law or amends a current law prejudicial to bitcoin's existence, they it may be taxable. As of the amount, I also doubt that they may be able to trace it, considering that you receive your bitcoins on a separate wallet.

I'm sure many people make an excellent living selling goat shit. Is that regulated? If you're making a living then it's going to be taxable no matter what you're making a living from.

If it's illegal then it'll remain your wee secret.
As long as people keep their bitcoins from signature campaign in their wallets then there is no problem if they try to convert them into fiat then they need to pay taxes even if there is no tax system for the cryotocurrency in that country because every country has income taxes so actually earning money from something so it is important to pay taxes too.

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March 20, 2018, 07:39:28 PM
 #44

As long as people keep their bitcoins from signature campaign in their wallets then there is no problem if they try to convert them into fiat then they need to pay taxes even if there is no tax system for the cryotocurrency in that country because every country has income taxes so actually earning money from something so it is important to pay taxes too.

As always it depends where you're at.

Where I'm pretty sure income tax would be due if I was being paid in anything with a value. You could pay me in cars or baby clothes. It's regarded as an exchange of value so it'll attract tax. It would then be down to me to come up with it so I'd have to sell it.

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March 20, 2018, 07:54:47 PM
 #45

The payment from signature campaigns cannot be considered as salary income because no TDS is deducted on this payment.

Moreover it is not a regular and stable form of income. You cannot be like always employed on any signature campaign. So definitely it cannot be considered as a salary income.

It can be put under income from other sources. And the treatment can be done accordingly. However i am quite sure about the indian scenario, you can confirm it from a tax  consultant in your own country.
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March 20, 2018, 07:58:50 PM
 #46

@OP, would it be too much for you to update your first post if you do manage to find some answers? I think there's quite a bit of feedback already from the users here and I agree the important aspects, if you were to declare the income, would be to 1) quantify the value at each earning 2) provide the transaction trail 3) back invoicing (?).

I'm learning the ropes in my own current jurisdiction as well, but I have some issues:
1. Like you, my crypto earnings qualify as freelance income.
2. I am only taxed when I convert the coins to fiat (I believe this is similar to UK). It makes the most sense as well, so there's no difficulty in adjusting price, etc.
3. Invoicing doesn't work well when selling OTC(!).

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March 20, 2018, 09:28:32 PM
 #47

@OP, would it be too much for you to update your first post if you do manage to find some answers? I think there's quite a bit of feedback already from the users here and I agree the important aspects, if you were to declare the income, would be to 1) quantify the value at each earning 2) provide the transaction trail 3) back invoicing (?).

I'm learning the ropes in my own current jurisdiction as well, but I have some issues:
1. Like you, my crypto earnings qualify as freelance income.
2. I am only taxed when I convert the coins to fiat (I believe this is similar to UK). It makes the most sense as well, so there's no difficulty in adjusting price, etc.
3. Invoicing doesn't work well when selling OTC(!).

2. Problem is that I'm fairly sure, at least here, that you actually have to declare anything even if it's not converted to fiat and even if bitcoins aren't seen as a currency or asset.

Right now it seems that in Spain there is no real regulation about it but it will come and again, I basically have to tell them about it just like I would buying a house.

I will update my first post, good idea.




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March 21, 2018, 07:19:37 AM
 #48

I wouldn't bother. The amount you can earn from these campaigns are quite small, even for Legendary ranks.
I don't think no one will harass you for such a unusual income that no one is sure about.

It may be a small amount in Spain, but here in India the tax authorities will issue a notice even if you fail to pay $10 in taxes. It is quite irritating and time-wasting, but this is how the tax authorities work in the third world nations. That said, I am not going to pay any tax on my signature earnings, until I convert my coins to fiat.

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buwaytress
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March 21, 2018, 07:53:06 AM
 #49

2. Problem is that I'm fairly sure, at least here, that you actually have to declare anything even if it's not converted to fiat and even if bitcoins aren't seen as a currency or asset.

Right now it seems that in Spain there is no real regulation about it but it will come and again, I basically have to tell them about it just like I would buying a house.

I will update my first post, good idea.

That certainly does sound a little strange, but this is the problem when there is no clarity, or precedent. Here in my jurisdiction it was ruled in a 2014 precedent under civil law as not an asset nor a currency, and this is precisely why it is not taxable for as long as they remain as bitcoin. I quote: "Bitcoins and other cryptocurrencies are nothing but exchange agents, such as shells, marbles and pebbles."

Just as they wouldn't have to declare shells and pebbles, you wouldn't need to bitcoin and crypto. Good luck.

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March 21, 2018, 08:01:58 AM
 #50

There is still no LAw regarding Taxes in Bitcoin since it's impossible to apply in a decentralized currency. You will be charged taxes right after you convert your BTC to Fiat. You must declare your earnings at that time to avoid any conflict if ever the government officials will check the source of your income. But until your money is in BTC, Then no need to pay taxes for it.

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March 21, 2018, 10:40:20 AM
 #51

I also wonder why there should be a tax, for example when we want to convert bitcoin into our currency, there must be a few percent taxes, what if the small bitcoin amount may be exhausted with the tax, it seems that for companies that use the application get paid from taxes we spend


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March 21, 2018, 11:03:12 AM
 #52

I also wonder why there should be a tax, for example when we want to convert bitcoin into our currency, there must be a few percent taxes, what if the small bitcoin amount may be exhausted with the tax, it seems that for companies that use the application get paid from taxes we spend
Let your country do their job, we all know that signature campaigns are not a fixed job so I don't think that it will be just and fair enough if they are going to tax it, it is not stable and not every time you have it.

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March 21, 2018, 11:15:30 AM
 #53

There is still no LAw regarding Taxes in Bitcoin since it's impossible to apply in a decentralized currency. You will be charged taxes right after you convert your BTC to Fiat. You must declare your earnings at that time to avoid any conflict if ever the government officials will check the source of your income. But until your money is in BTC, Then no need to pay taxes for it.

''But until your money is in BTC, Then no need to pay taxes for it.'' I'm not entirely sure about this part just like with stocks, even if you never sold your apple or facebook stocks, you would still have to declare them, wouldn't you?




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DaveF
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March 21, 2018, 11:29:50 AM
 #54

''But until your money is in BTC, Then no need to pay taxes for it.'' I'm not entirely sure about this part just like with stocks, even if you never sold your apple or facebook stocks, you would still have to declare them, wouldn't you?

This really depends on where you live. In the US, you don't declare when you buy you declare when you sell. You then take what you paid for it subtract what it cost you and pay taxes on that. If you got paid dividends along the way you should have paid taxes on those.

Every country is different, but most of them do operate that way for stocks.

As for signature campaigns, once again US based, above a certain amount you should report them (I do, giving the government it's cut now is not worth the hassle later if they find out about it). In theory you should report it all, but that just not practical. However, I actually report it under "hobby expense and income" Bitcoin is not my main job, it's not even my side job. So *I* can do it that way. Same thing with my eBay stuff. Since what I sell tends to be high profit items I don't like giving money away to the govt, but it's not worth the hassle later.

Now the official:
YMMV, this is not tax advice. Consult your local accountant or tax advisor. I am not a tax advisor so do not use anything I say as tax advice.

-Dave




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sheenshane
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March 21, 2018, 11:59:42 AM
 #55


... snip...

Now the official:
YMMV, this is not tax advice. Consult your local accountant or tax advisor. I am not a tax advisor so do not use anything I say as tax advice.

-Dave
Well said sir, it really depends on what country you are because it has a different law in each country, but as what I have known here our country our government is now quite on the cryptocurrency they didn't say it is legal or either illegal and as a crypto user here we enjoy this opportunity.
Our government did not force us to pay taxes that we cash out from bitcoin, the only thing I think we must be pay tax when we claim our fiat from remittance we pay a transaction fee per cash out.




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guybrushthreepwood
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March 21, 2018, 12:12:20 PM
Merited by Bardman (4), Foxpup (3)
 #56

I wouldn't really know how to pay taxes if I need to, would this count like a job and how exactly would someone prove they got their bitcoins from signature campaign , seems quite difficult.

You should probably do your own research on this because ignorance isn't an excuse and it could certainly come back to bite you at some point down the line. Take a screenshot of the campaign's payment terms and when you receive the coins. That should be sufficient proof. The evidence is there on the blockchain so it's not like you shouldn't be able to find it.

A few options are presented:

1. Don't say anything, it's virtually impossible for any tax agency to find out what you have. However eventually they might be able to and you could face serious problems.

You could make these same arguments about cash in hand jobs as it's very unlikely the taxman will be able to find out what you have when you provide a service for cash. At some point though you will get audited and if your records don't add up you'll have some explaining to do and that's where at the very least fines will come into place. Also, what do you want to do with the money? If it's a significant amount and you want to put it towards something like a house then they're going to want to know where that money came from. If you can't prove you've paid the appropriate taxes on it then you'll likely start to get in trouble.

2. Mark it as freelance work and a tax rate will be applied to it, up to 50% (reported by an user) It seems that they wont ask for much information or proof as long as you are declaring it intentionally.

It would likely fall under freelancing, but regardless it is still money earned. Most countries give you a tax free allowance up to a certain point so in most cases no tax would be due unless you earn a significant amount, but once you go over a certain threshold tax is certainly due.

3. Simply spend bitcoins or any other cryptocurrency that you earned without ever converting it to fiat because cryptocurrencies are usually not taxable in most European countries.

There may be no taxes on using bitcoin but legally you will have needed to pay income tax on the coins as you earned them. You couldn't just save up enough coins to buy a house or Lambo then use the coins to purchase it directly without paying taxes on anything. That's not how it works.

It all depends on the currency in which you keep your money.

This isn't true. If you earn $100 in crypto then you will need to add $100 in income to your earnings.

Don't bother to pay it if your government doesn't bother you too. Most of the banks doesn't consider crypto currency as a source of income that's why when you have to show them your sources of income you have to make an another job that looks legal to them with a reasonable salary because if it's too big they might lock up your bank account if it is not reasonable. And by the way it really depends on what country you are in, so just stick to the law and everything will be fine.

Don't bother to pay it if they don't bother you? Well this is advice that will eventually get them to bother you. You people really don't know what you're talking about. If you get crypto in exchange for services or goods then it is income. And it's not the banks you need to be worried about; It's the taxman.

The problem is that it gets really messy, specially considering that I have been doing this for a year when you could earn a lot of bitcoins, 0.04 wasn't much then but now is around 300$ not to mention other giveaways and things like that. I was pretty sure it would be something like freelance, however the problem I have is how to prove you did it, I didn't save screenshots or transactions at the time and 50% is a ton of money. I have probably traded/bought things with them along the way too. I will eventually consult a lawyer or someone specialized in tax payments.

It will get even messier when you have to prove what you earned and where it came from. The taxes won't be anywhere near 50% unless you're a high earner. Most capital gains taxes are about 20% as well. Just take screenshots of the campaign threads with their payment terms and your wallet transactions.

I also wonder why there should be a tax, for example when we want to convert bitcoin into our currency, there must be a few percent taxes, what if the small bitcoin amount may be exhausted with the tax, it seems that for companies that use the application get paid from taxes we spend
Let your country do their job, we all know that signature campaigns are not a fixed job so I don't think that it will be just and fair enough if they are going to tax it, it is not stable and not every time you have it.

You tell that to the judge in court when you're there for tax evasion and see how much that helps you.

Op, don't listen to the majority of people in here because they seem like naive kids who seem to think you don't need to pay taxes because it's not a proper currency or 'job' .The bottom line is if you earn something for providing a service then you will need to be declaring that as income. Of course, how much depends on your countries tax laws but I'd say 99% of countries are going to want their cut of the money. Of course, there is the possibility that they'll never find out and if it's just a small amount they never might, but that's something you will have to weigh up whether the risk is worth it for you. If you are worried do the research or hire a tax accountant who is familiar with crypto or at the very least capital gains. The taxes due will likely by the same as if you were a currency trader or stock broker, though.
carlfebz2
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March 21, 2018, 12:12:25 PM
 #57

''But until your money is in BTC, Then no need to pay taxes for it.'' I'm not entirely sure about this part just like with stocks, even if you never sold your apple or facebook stocks, you would still have to declare them, wouldn't you?

This really depends on where you live. In the US, you don't declare when you buy you declare when you sell. You then take what you paid for it subtract what it cost you and pay taxes on that. If you got paid dividends along the way you should have paid taxes on those.

Every country is different, but most of them do operate that way for stocks.

As for signature campaigns, once again US based, above a certain amount you should report them (I do, giving the government it's cut now is not worth the hassle later if they find out about it). In theory you should report it all, but that just not practical. However, I actually report it under "hobby expense and income" Bitcoin is not my main job, it's not even my side job. So *I* can do it that way. Same thing with my eBay stuff. Since what I sell tends to be high profit items I don't like giving money away to the govt, but it's not worth the hassle later.

Now the official:
YMMV, this is not tax advice. Consult your local accountant or tax advisor. I am not a tax advisor so do not use anything I say as tax advice.

-Dave
Inspite of having these lots of advises being mentioned on here I would really always prefer on consulting  local accountant or tax advisor into your country or place same as suggested above because you would able to know the accurate and precise answer with your doubts when it comes to taxation matters of signature campaign earnings but on general aspect I don't see that this thing should or obliged to be tax.Why? Amounts isn't really too great for them to be concerned of.

 
  

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butcherme
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March 21, 2018, 02:31:01 PM
 #58

Now first of all I live in spain and I'm wondering if someone has ever paid taxes with money acquired from signature campaigns here. I made a decent amount of money a year ago because campaigns were giving 0.03-0.04 per week. I wouldn't really know how to pay taxes if I need to, would this count like a job and how exactly would someone prove they got their bitcoins from signature campaign , seems quite difficult.

Edit

A few options are presented:

1. Don't say anything, it's virtually impossible for any tax agency to find out what you have. However eventually they might be able to and you could face serious problems.

2. Mark it as freelance work and a tax rate will be applied to it, up to 50% (reported by an user) It seems that they wont ask for much information or proof as long as you are declaring it intentionally.

3. Simply spend bitcoins or any other cryptocurrency that you earned without ever converting it to fiat because cryptocurrencies are usually not taxable in most European countries.




I am not aware about the rules regarding cryprocurrency in your country. I think as long as no one is bothering you about taxes, you shouldn't worry. Here in our country, we arw not required to declare it, even if the government knows that some are earning through crypto. Maybe if your govwrnment has a regulation regarding it, you should pay taxes.

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guybrushthreepwood
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March 21, 2018, 03:29:47 PM
 #59

I am not aware about the rules regarding cryprocurrency in your country. I think as long as no one is bothering you about taxes, you shouldn't worry. Here in our country, we arw not required to declare it, even if the government knows that some are earning through crypto. Maybe if your govwrnment has a regulation regarding it, you should pay taxes.

Most taxmen usually don't bother you... right up until they notice some discrepancy in your affairs or that you're not paying taxes at all. What country are you from that doesn't require income tax on crypto earnings? I know of very few countries that don't require you to pay taxes on money you earned and it doesn't matter whether you get paid in cash, crypto or potatoes most governments will count those as earnings and will count towards income earned. Are you sure you're not just completely unaware of what you should be paying taxes on? Many seem to be completely ignorant on the issue.
Lieldoryn
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March 21, 2018, 05:16:21 PM
 #60

Now first of all I live in spain and I'm wondering if someone has ever paid taxes with money acquired from signature campaigns here. I made a decent amount of money a year ago because campaigns were giving 0.03-0.04 per week. I wouldn't really know how to pay taxes if I need to, would this count like a job and how exactly would someone prove they got their bitcoins from signature campaign , seems quite difficult.

Edit

A few options are presented:

1. Don't say anything, it's virtually impossible for any tax agency to find out what you have. However eventually they might be able to and you could face serious problems.

2. Mark it as freelance work and a tax rate will be applied to it, up to 50% (reported by an user) It seems that they wont ask for much information or proof as long as you are declaring it intentionally.

3. Simply spend bitcoins or any other cryptocurrency that you earned without ever converting it to fiat because cryptocurrencies are usually not taxable in most European countries.




I am not aware about the rules regarding cryprocurrency in your country. I think as long as no one is bothering you about taxes, you shouldn't worry. Here in our country, we arw not required to declare it, even if the government knows that some are earning through crypto. Maybe if your govwrnment has a regulation regarding it, you should pay taxes.
I think you're mistaken. The fact that the government pretends that it does not notice bitcoin does not mean that you do not have to pay taxes. In all countries, people have to pay taxes on their income. Perhaps your income is very small and the Bank does not submit information about the receipt of Fiat in your account? But at any moment it may turn out to be a trap for you.
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