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Author Topic: Countries that followed the Austrian School to Prosperity  (Read 19924 times)
ffuentes
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July 27, 2011, 06:59:55 AM
 #41

What do you understand as "prosperous country"? Because as a Chilean I don't know how to read this.

Some Chilean people are rich from Pinochet dictatorship to the present but public services are poorer, inadequate and the inequality is worst every year, incomparable with any other OECD member. Seems to me ok that people opine about Chile but, please, read before talking.

That's what I can say as an average chilean.

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July 27, 2011, 11:44:32 AM
 #42

I noticed that nobody has said "my country, I love it here." If someone did say that, would any of you fans of Austrian or Chicago economic theory like to live there better than where you live now?

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July 27, 2011, 02:23:55 PM
 #43

What do you understand as "prosperous country"? Because as a Chilean I don't know how to read this.

Some Chilean people are rich from Pinochet dictatorship to the present but public services are poorer, inadequate and the inequality is worst every year, incomparable with any other OECD member. Seems to me ok that people opine about Chile but, please, read before talking.

That's what I can say as an average chilean.

Guess you weren't there on '71-'73 when it was extremely hard not to be poor, you know because of 700% inflation, extreme protectionism and the fact that if you were anywhere above the poverty line you got your shit expropriated. Public services poorer? That's rich. I guess waiting in line 2 hours to buy some bread and eggs from the government was a really fine public service. Yeah, if it wasn't for Pinochet there would be more equality, because there wouldn't be a single rich person in the country.

Chile wouldn't be anywhere close to being an OECD member if it wasn't for the Chicago Boys.
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July 27, 2011, 03:04:44 PM
 #44

I noticed that nobody has said "my country, I love it here." If someone did say that, would any of you fans of Austrian or Chicago economic theory like to live there better than where you live now?

If there was an example of a libertarian free-market country out there, sure, I'd probably move there. Once I save up enough to live off of investments, anyway (working hard on that). Though in a way, culture is important to me just as much as economics, so I may end up moving to a rather socialist country, just because I like their culture and geography (like Italy)

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July 27, 2011, 03:47:20 PM
 #45

Yeah man it's time for you to start working for once. You promised to school me on Chile but you keep stalling.

Don't worry, I'll be sure to write something, but it might be a few days because unlike others I do it in the following order:

Research -->  Ask Questions  -->  More Research  -->  Repeat -->  Come to reasonable conclusion -->  Test conclusion

Rather than the usual:

Knee-Jerk Reaction  -->    Only collect evidence to support the foregone conclusion  -->  Turn that into a chum bucket of quips and talking points -->  "Debate"

I'll keep my politics out of your economics if you keep your economics out of my politics.

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July 27, 2011, 04:05:43 PM
 #46

niemivh, is your whole point that "Austian" is a utopian ideas, like Objectivist or pure communist, which, although all compelling theories with a lot of solid ideas behind them, were never truly allowed to exist in this world? If that's your point, that Austian is just a theory at this point, then trolling f*cking accomplished.

I will be occasionally sarcastic against individuals who seem a little dense or unwilling to challenge their own views through ideological stagnation or intellectual laziness.

However it is not meant to 'troll' anyone.  This is to show that the success stories of the Austrian school don't exist or either are very few and far between.  What countries use to become industrial or modern economies is so far from the "Free Market" that it might surprise most here.  Transitioning from a 3rd world status to a 1st world status is nearly impossible if you open your doors to total free market polices.  Throwing your infant industries on the world market before they are able to compete only benefits the largest global interests in said market as they will easily be able to crush you via dumping their products at lower prices until those companies goes under. 

However a small minority of folks in said country will always do well in this Globalized system and be the regional vanguard of the neocolonialism that Globalization truly is. 

Gotta get back to researching Chile.


I'll keep my politics out of your economics if you keep your economics out of my politics.

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July 27, 2011, 04:22:57 PM
 #47

niemivh, is your whole point that "Austian" is a utopian ideas, like Objectivist or pure communist, which, although all compelling theories with a lot of solid ideas behind them, were never truly allowed to exist in this world? If that's your point, that Austian is just a theory at this point, then trolling f*cking accomplished.

The problem is that he is looking for libertarian countries, not "austrian" countries. Libertarianism is a moral and political theory. Austrain economics is not a set of policies, but a social science.

Im trying to make him understand this but he keeps using his "angry mummies kid" rethoric and saying that I want to have economics separated from everything and stupid stuff like that.

Once again I disagree that anyone who has an idea to what one thing is favorable to another could not, has not or is not put forth in the form of a policy.  Point being: the Austrian school has beliefs regarding what works and what doesn't work in an economic system; therefore those ideals could be molded into legal language and put forth into a legal framework or just social practice.  My question is: where has this happened - AND, led to prosperity?

But to prevent this digression, to where we now are arguing over the meaning of the word "policy" I believe perhaps I should asked for "Free Market polices" in lieu of "Austrian Polices"; BUT there is a reason I did not do that.  Because that term "Free Market" is an undefinable 'smoke man' (brother of the straw man) to which everyone has a different opinion of what that means with no level of detail beyond the most rudimentary basics.  This is why I asked for things that are "Austrian School" related.  If I asked for Neo-Liberal school would that have avoided your ire?

I'd also like to know where you are getting these very limited definitions.  Is Libertarianism NOT a social science in your book?  Yet Austrian Economics is not in the realm of political theory?  How do you separate those when the Austrian School is largely a critique of government involvement?

I'll keep my politics out of your economics if you keep your economics out of my politics.

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July 27, 2011, 04:25:57 PM
 #48

The political expression of Austrian economics is anarcho-capitalism. No State would implement such policies, because the government would find itself out of a job. 

Well put.  But that assumes that a society can even exist without a form of law and therefore a body to enforce it.  It is an impossible construct only meant for the naive to chase while those rich, powerful and unscrupulous get more power and wealth.

I'll keep my politics out of your economics if you keep your economics out of my politics.

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July 27, 2011, 04:27:33 PM
 #49

What do you understand as "prosperous country"? Because as a Chilean I don't know how to read this.

Some Chilean people are rich from Pinochet dictatorship to the present but public services are poorer, inadequate and the inequality is worst every year, incomparable with any other OECD member. Seems to me ok that people opine about Chile but, please, read before talking.

That's what I can say as an average chilean.

Can you please post more?  It's interesting to get someone's perspective who actually lives there.

I'll keep my politics out of your economics if you keep your economics out of my politics.

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July 27, 2011, 05:34:39 PM
 #50

I met a bunch of guys from Austria, and they seemed to really like it there.

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July 27, 2011, 05:40:50 PM
 #51

By the way, the whole "1st world country" thing is a rather recent phenomenon. Debatable as to whether it only happened within the last 300 years, or since the renaissance. Before that we had feudalism, monarchy/theocracy, and general tribalism. Before that? History is somewhat sketchy, and human communities (tribes/countries) were rather small and isolated. The history of our civilization over the last 10,000+ years is actually rather scant, with only a few large empires prominently available for study, and things like accounting, economics, and things having to do with any trade that could be thought of as modern, being very new inventions in the scheme of things (countries/politics move and evolve VERY slowly).

So, in a way, asking "Where are the great examples of Austrian economics" is somewhat like asking "where are our Martian colonies?" We just aren't there yet, the ideas are still very new with a lot of things to work out, and we never really had a chance to establish anything that was outside of influence of the previously established powerful governments.

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July 27, 2011, 05:50:31 PM
 #52

So, in a way, asking "Where are the great examples of Austrian economics" is somewhat like asking "where are our Martian colonies?" We just aren't there yet, the ideas are still very new with a lot of things to work out, and we never really had a chance to establish anything that was outside of influence of the previously established powerful governments.

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July 27, 2011, 06:00:48 PM
 #53

So, in a way, asking "Where are the great examples of Austrian economics" is somewhat like asking "where are our Martian colonies?" We just aren't there yet, the ideas are still very new with a lot of things to work out, and we never really had a chance to establish anything that was outside of influence of the previously established powerful governments.

This. Also, Where's my fucking jetpack already?!?

Right here: http://martinjetpack.com/
Only costs 5,394 Bitcoin

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July 27, 2011, 06:05:58 PM
 #54

So, in a way, asking "Where are the great examples of Austrian economics" is somewhat like asking "where are our Martian colonies?" We just aren't there yet, the ideas are still very new with a lot of things to work out, and we never really had a chance to establish anything that was outside of influence of the previously established powerful governments.

This. Also, Where's my fucking jetpack already?!?

Right here: http://martinjetpack.com/
Only costs 5,394 Bitcoin

Not bad. Only a few decades late.

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July 27, 2011, 06:30:55 PM
 #55

Just look at all the former soviet bloc nations that turned capitalist

West Germany vs. East Germany

United States vs. Soviet Union

Hong Kong vs. China

Modern China vs. Older China

Japan vs. China

South Korea vs. South Korea

Romania now vs. Romania during Ceaușescu


These are just the basic examples, there are plenty more. It seems to be the rule too.

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July 27, 2011, 06:46:37 PM
 #56

Austria, duh! 

10th richest country in the world per capita.  Whether that's a result of the former finance minister's Karl Heinz Grasser's policies is debatable though.

Grasser is a self-proclaimed Austrian (one of the few Austrians who actually come from Austria!)

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ffuentes
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July 27, 2011, 06:55:26 PM
 #57

What do you understand as "prosperous country"? Because as a Chilean I don't know how to read this.

Some Chilean people are rich from Pinochet dictatorship to the present but public services are poorer, inadequate and the inequality is worst every year, incomparable with any other OECD member. Seems to me ok that people opine about Chile but, please, read before talking.

That's what I can say as an average chilean.

Guess you weren't there on '71-'73 when it was extremely hard not to be poor, you know because of 700% inflation, extreme protectionism and the fact that if you were anywhere above the poverty line you got your shit expropriated. Public services poorer? That's rich. I guess waiting in line 2 hours to buy some bread and eggs from the government was a really fine public service. Yeah, if it wasn't for Pinochet there would be more equality, because there wouldn't be a single rich person in the country.

Chile wouldn't be anywhere close to being an OECD member if it wasn't for the Chicago Boys.

I'm not a commie defending Allende's gov. but do you realize that you are supporting a dictatorship?

Most Chilean people think that all of that shit (or a part of it) you're talking was caused by rich business people boycotting gov.

I don't know if it was true or not, but all libertarian reforms couldn't be done in democracy.

I live in a municipality around 400.000 inhabitants but has no hospital, "our" hospital is in another that has 700000 inh. But if it is for you a prosperous country.

One more fact: Chile has no industry, Chile lives yet of its commodities, and no body talk too much of this but it is sad.

Listen Radio Libre (Electronica) Donate. (click for details).

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July 27, 2011, 07:06:14 PM
 #58

What do you understand as "prosperous country"? Because as a Chilean I don't know how to read this.

Some Chilean people are rich from Pinochet dictatorship to the present but public services are poorer, inadequate and the inequality is worst every year, incomparable with any other OECD member. Seems to me ok that people opine about Chile but, please, read before talking.

That's what I can say as an average chilean.

Guess you weren't there on '71-'73 when it was extremely hard not to be poor, you know because of 700% inflation, extreme protectionism and the fact that if you were anywhere above the poverty line you got your shit expropriated. Public services poorer? That's rich. I guess waiting in line 2 hours to buy some bread and eggs from the government was a really fine public service. Yeah, if it wasn't for Pinochet there would be more equality, because there wouldn't be a single rich person in the country.

Chile wouldn't be anywhere close to being an OECD member if it wasn't for the Chicago Boys.

I'm not a commie defending Allende's gov. but do you realize that you are supporting a dictatorship?

Most Chilean people think that all of that shit (or a part of it) you're talking was caused by rich business people boycotting gov.

I don't know if it was true or not, but all libertarian reforms couldn't be done in democracy.

I live in a municipality around 400.000 inhabitants but has no hospital, "our" hospital is in another that has 700000 inh. But if it is for you a prosperous country.

One more fact: Chile has no industry, Chile lives yet of its commodities, and no body talk too much of this but it is sad.



One of my business cases I had to read was on Chile's extremely advanced and profitable wood products industry (paper, pulp, etc.) Chile has the best technologies for growing trees fast, and keeping their logging very sustainable.

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July 27, 2011, 07:16:37 PM
 #59

But is still a primary economy example. CODELCO has much money and invest in investigation but they still exporting 99% of copper without value added.  I mean industry, not raw resource extraction.

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July 27, 2011, 07:30:13 PM
 #60

"A fundamental rejection of mathematical methods in economics, seeing the function of economics as investigating the essences rather than the specific quantities of economic phenomena. This was seen as an evolutionary, or "genetic-causal", approach against the alleged "unreality" and internal stresses inherent in the "static" approach of equilibrium and perfect competition, which are the foundations of mainstream Neoclassical economics (see also praxeology). This methodology is also driven by the belief that econometrics is inherently misleading in that it creates a fallacious "precision" in economics where there is none."

How is this not good?

Pretty much anytime any country makes a decision that is based of a logical and certain occurrence (like the need to eat or sleep or transportation, etc.), they are applying Austrian theory.
If they analyze data that they chose to construct, and make a decision based of the data (thus assuming the original construct was perfect enough to analyze) then they are applying mainstream economic theory.
I could go back and forward with examples, but long story short is governments go back and forward with how they handle everything.
"Oh we need money for whatever it is right now, make a set of data and request it." Then. "Oh shit its getting real because we did so many <------ requests based on BS data. We better apply some logic to get it back under control, hopefully."

That's the way I see it, I may be wrong. It just seems like they go back and forward to basically come up on profits, and still keep things going. Spinning plates balancing act.

Also Does it count as prosperous if you are 10,000,000,000,000 in debt? Im not sure where you live but where I am, Orange County, CA we get a lot of people that "look" prosperous but really only have a bunch of debt and will eventually be living in a one bedroom apt. The wiser of us know better than to give them any credit at all.
Same can be said for any entity or governemnt in debt.
So if there are no Solely Austrian Successes than there arent any solely mainstream successes either, IMO.

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