Does Anyone Else Believe In Jesus Christ ?

[Spendulus]

I used to believe in Jesus Christ with all my heart. I was a practicing Catholic, went to church every week, prayed often, and felt God's warm embrace in my life.



Then I got better.

This saddens me Rassah.  You are the one I am praying for the most on here, like it or not. I know you are convinced that God is not real ....

Salvation, redemption and so forth may be either TO or FROM....

When he says honestly that he's made a movement to the better, I can't see why not to accept that at face value.  

Because that movement was AWAY from "Jesus"?  The problem with double talk such as "oh but that must not have been the True Jesus, try a different one" is the True Scotsman logical fallacy.  The problem with arguing that "Oh that Catholic church thats Man's creation that's not God" is that argument can be never proven or disproven, thus it can be used anywhere and anything against or for anything.

It is like if someone said "I'm doing much better since I stopped drinking".   Ok, fine.  Then someone else walks up and says "I've started drinking and I like it."  Ok, that's fine too.  The one statement does not contradict the truth of the other.

Sure.  It might be better for a while.  Drinking is great for a while.  Someone could totally get drunk every night and say, "I like it" then die of alcohol poisoning.  Then it would not be as much fun would it?  

A verse that comes to mind is "Everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial."

No arguments with that.  But note I haven't in the analogy mentioned 'excessive drinking'.  Here's another example.  Some time ago a vegetarian girl worked for me.  One day she came in sort of a dazed, dreamy look, slight smile on her face.  First thing I thought was that she'd fallen head over heels in love with some guy.  

I asked "You look happy, what happened?"

The reply...

"I just ate a hamburger..."

Solution for Person A at moment A1:  Don't eat meat
Solution for Person A at moment A2:  Eat meat

Why should just one of these be 'right'?

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[BitChick]

I will wish very hard that you can some day overcome your religious delusion, stop wasting so much time and energy on this ultimately pointless belief, apply all that time and energy to something much more productive and beneficial, and become a better, happier, more independent and complete person as a result.
Though I suspect my wish will be exactly as productive as your prayers for me.

Why do you wish that for me?  Do you really think it will somehow "enlighten" me and make my life better somehow? 

I am a million times better person because of my faith in Jesus.  Before letting Jesus into my life I had hate, anger, fear and was controlled by my own desires.  With His help I am able to see the world through His eyes and have love, compassion, hope and joy regardless of the circumstances around me and regardless of what people do to me and I am never alone.

Sure, people that are not Christians are doing "good deeds" every day and are reaping some of the rewards that comes with doing good things. Some atheists are kind and giving individuals for sure (I think you are one of them BTW) The verses, "It is more blessed to give then receive" stand true for everyone.  I just find that my hands are less tightfisted thanks to what Jesus has done for me and I have more compassion for those around me.

The Bible says that the prayers of the righteous are effective.  Of course I am not "righteous" on my own but Jesus has made me more so!  So it is in faith that I pray that God can do great things.  Granted, everyone has a choice regardless of how much anyone prays (the whole free-will issue applies here).  But I think that praying for God to show you (and others) how much He loves them is a prayer that He will and does answer.

[BitChick]

I used to believe in Jesus Christ with all my heart. I was a practicing Catholic, went to church every week, prayed often, and felt God's warm embrace in my life.



Then I got better.

This saddens me Rassah.  You are the one I am praying for the most on here, like it or not. I know you are convinced that God is not real ....

Salvation, redemption and so forth may be either TO or FROM....

When he says honestly that he's made a movement to the better, I can't see why not to accept that at face value.  

Because that movement was AWAY from "Jesus"?  The problem with double talk such as "oh but that must not have been the True Jesus, try a different one" is the True Scotsman logical fallacy.  The problem with arguing that "Oh that Catholic church thats Man's creation that's not God" is that argument can be never proven or disproven, thus it can be used anywhere and anything against or for anything.

It is like if someone said "I'm doing much better since I stopped drinking".   Ok, fine.  Then someone else walks up and says "I've started drinking and I like it."  Ok, that's fine too.  The one statement does not contradict the truth of the other.

Sure.  It might be better for a while.  Drinking is great for a while.  Someone could totally get drunk every night and say, "I like it" then die of alcohol poisoning.  Then it would not be as much fun would it?  

A verse that comes to mind is "Everything is permissible, but not everything is beneficial."

No arguments with that.  But note I haven't in the analogy mentioned 'excessive drinking'.  Here's another example.  Some time ago a vegetarian girl worked for me.  One day she came in sort of a dazed, dreamy look, slight smile on her face.  First thing I thought was that she'd fallen head over heels in love with some guy.  

I asked "You look happy, what happened?"

The reply...

"I just ate a hamburger..."

Solution for Person A at moment A1:  Don't eat meat
Solution for Person A at moment A2:  Eat meat

Why should just one of these be 'right'?

I agree that neither one is necessarily right. The Bible says, "Do not be over-righteous, nor be over-wise.  A wise man avoids all extremes." 

[Spendulus]

I agree that neither one is necessarily right. The Bible says, "Do not be over-righteous, nor be over-wise.  A wise man avoids all extremes." 

But let me note the difference between your response and mine.

I just came up with the idea, and you read it in a book.

OF THESE TWO OPTIONS (and leaving aside my or your religious inclinations) I greatly prefer my approach.

[Rassah]

I will wish very hard that you can some day overcome your religious delusion, stop wasting so much time and energy on this ultimately pointless belief, apply all that time and energy to something much more productive and beneficial, and become a better, happier, more independent and complete person as a result.
Though I suspect my wish will be exactly as productive as your prayers for me.

Why do you wish that for me?  Do you really think it will somehow "enlighten" me and make my life better somehow? 

Yes, of course. And I speak from experience.

I am a million times better person because of my faith in Jesus.  Before letting Jesus into my life I had hate, anger, fear and was controlled by my own desires.  With His help I am able to see the world through His eyes and have love, compassion, hope and joy regardless of the circumstances around me and regardless of what people do to me and I am never alone.

But you are simply using Jesus as a crutch. You yourself are not a better person, you are a better person only because of your reliance on your belief on Jesus. If for whatever reason you started to doubt Jesus's existence, would you revert to being a hateful, angry, and fearful person who has no self-control? I can control my hate, anger, fear, and desires through my own will power alone, and don't need to deend on anyone else for that, so I feel like a more complete and better person because of it.

I look at you as like a slightly overweight person riding around in a scooter all over the place. You are completely dependent on that scooter, and believe it gives you great mobility and convenience, but I am proposing that you get off the scooter, stop depending on it, and start walking around on your own. Not only will you lose weight and gain access to many more areas that the scooter couldn't go to, but you will also stop hating yourself for being fat and so dependent on your scooter (as you apparently hate yourself for being a bad person inside, and now feel dependent on Jesus to keep you good), and gain the confidence knowing that you yourself overcame your limitations, without depending on anything or anyone else.

There is also the very apparent issue of your Jesus crutch severely limiting what kind of knowledge you are even willing to coonsider, let alone explore. The universe has an enormous amount of wonderful things and fascinating posibilities, but you refuse to acknowledge them because you are limited by where your "Jesus scooter" will allow you to go. This may not hurt you in the long run, since you'll be able to continue to survive in your happy bliss, but I'm afraid it will make your life very limited, and not as fulfilling as it could be. It's analogous to how my in-laws all live in a tiny town in Western Maryland, 2 hours from the nearest hub of "civilization." and they are totally content living there. When asked why they don't travel or explore the world, they just reply with, "I'm not really interested in that" or "I'm comfortable where I am," or "I can just see it on TV, so why bother." Yet they are missing out on so many wonderful experiences and cultures, and they don't even know about it (lucky for me, my spouse went to the Navy, which forced him to experience those things, and opened his eyes to what's outside their little cloistered lives).

[BitChick]

I will wish very hard that you can some day overcome your religious delusion, stop wasting so much time and energy on this ultimately pointless belief, apply all that time and energy to something much more productive and beneficial, and become a better, happier, more independent and complete person as a result.
Though I suspect my wish will be exactly as productive as your prayers for me.

Why do you wish that for me?  Do you really think it will somehow "enlighten" me and make my life better somehow? 

Yes, of course. And I speak from experience.

I am a million times better person because of my faith in Jesus.  Before letting Jesus into my life I had hate, anger, fear and was controlled by my own desires.  With His help I am able to see the world through His eyes and have love, compassion, hope and joy regardless of the circumstances around me and regardless of what people do to me and I am never alone.

But you are simply using Jesus as a crutch. You yourself are not a better person, you are a better person only because of your reliance on your belief on Jesus. If for whatever reason you started to doubt Jesus's existence, would you revert to being a hateful, angry, and fearful person who has no self-control? I can control my hate, anger, fear, and desires through my own will power alone, and don't need to deend on anyone else for that, so I feel like a more complete and better person because of it.

I look at you as like a slightly overweight person riding around in a scooter all over the place. You are completely dependent on that scooter, and believe it gives you great mobility and convenience, but I am proposing that you get off the scooter, stop depending on it, and start walking around on your own. Not only will you lose weight and gain access to many more areas that the scooter couldn't go to, but you will also stop hating yourself for being fat and so dependent on your scooter (as you apparently hate yourself for being a bad person inside, and now feel dependent on Jesus to keep you good), and gain the confidence knowing that you yourself overcame your limitations, without depending on anything or anyone else.

There is also the very apparent issue of your Jesus crutch severely limiting what kind of knowledge you are even willing to coonsider, let alone explore. The universe has an enormous amount of wonderful things and fascinating posibilities, but you refuse to acknowledge them because you are limited by where your "Jesus scooter" will allow you to go. This may not hurt you in the long run, since you'll be able to continue to survive in your happy bliss, but I'm afraid it will make your life very limited, and not as fulfilling as it could be. It's analogous to how my in-laws all live in a tiny town in Western Maryland, 2 hours from the nearest hub of "civilization." and they are totally content living there. When asked why they don't travel or explore the world, they just reply with, "I'm not really interested in that" or "I'm comfortable where I am," or "I can just see it on TV, so why bother." Yet they are missing out on so many wonderful experiences and cultures, and they don't even know about it (lucky for me, my spouse went to the Navy, which forced him to experience those things, and opened his eyes to what's outside their little cloistered lives).

I once heard someone say "Jesus is not my crutch.  He is my stretcher!"   

I could not hobble myself to heaven even if I wanted to.  I need Him to carry me.

I guess it comes down to humility.  Accepting that I am not OK on my own is a big part of it.  There is a common teaching nowadays that tells everyone, "The power is in you" or "Just believe in yourself."  But if I am completely honest with myself I realize that I am a wretched sinner.  I don't have the power in myself at all. I have evil thoughts and desires and without God's help I would give into temptations that only His Spirit helps me withstand.  Maybe I am a just "bigger" sinner than others and realize this?  I often think the most dangerous place to be is to be a good and decent person because those are the people that never realize that they even have any problem to begin with.

Jesus did say that it is the sick that need a doctor.  I was sick and he is more than my crutch! 

[xkeyscore89]

Yes, I do. My faith is something I struggle with daily, however.

[Rassah]

I once heard someone say "Jesus is not my crutch.  He is my stretcher!"  

I could not hobble myself to heaven even if I wanted to.  I need Him to carry me.

The "switch" which gets from from being a theist to being an atheist is at the point where you go from
"I can never be good enough, and need Jesus to get me to heaven"
to
"I am good enough, and if god doesn't recognize that, then he is an unjust god, and I don't want his heaven, anyway."

Basically, you take the external morality/ethics you were raised with, and internalize it to build your own sens of what is right and just. Often, the internal one is much more just than what you have been taught (it was the internal morality that defied religious teachings to fight for things like women's rights, freeing slaves, letting people ask taboo questions, etc.)

I guess it comes down to humility.  Accepting that I am not OK on my own is a big part of it.  There is a common teaching nowadays that tells everyone, "The power is in you" or "Just believe in yourself."  But if I am completely honest with myself I realize that I am a wretched sinner.  I don't have the power in myself at all.

This here is the big, monstrous lie that churches have been coonvinciing people with for centuries, for the sole purpose of controling them. "You *think* you are a good person, but trust us, you are not. You are a wretched, evil human being, and the only salvation is through us. You must listen to us, do what we tell you, and give us your money, since that is the only way you will not e an evil person." It's the ultimage brainwashing power-grab, and it took a lot for people to overcome it, accept that they are not evil, and start the renaissance that brought us out of the dark ages. I am sorry to hear that you are still a victim of this lie, and don't even realize it for what is, which is some PEOPLE'S way of forcing their control over you.

I have evil thoughts and desires and without God's help I would give into temptations that only His Spirit helps me withstand.  Maybe I am a just "bigger" sinner than others and realize this?  I often think the most dangerous place to be is to be a good and decent person because those are the people that never realize that they even have any problem to begin with.

If you are at heart an evil person, and are dependent on god to keep you in line, then why would you deserve heaven? If a child is really boysterous, loud, disruptive, destructive, and is downright evil, and the only reason the child behaves is because her parents are forcing her to behave, is she really a good child? I don't think so. I would not reward that child for being forced to follow orders, since I know that she is, in reality, a bad person, and that the good face the child puts on is just a forced lie.

[dank]

I used to believe in Jesus Christ with all my heart. I was a practicing Catholic, went to church every week, prayed often, and felt God's warm embrace in my life.



Then I got better.

This saddens me Rassah.  You are the one I am praying for the most on here, like it or not. I know you are convinced that God is not real (or I think perhaps deep down you are just ticked at him)

I'm not ticked, but the "convinced" is not the correct term. I am not convinced that there is no god. I just don't see any evidence for his existence. The best I can do to illustrate is to ask a question (and hopefully you have never heard this term): are you convinced that Baba Yaga doesn't exist? You probably can't answer this question, because you don't know what Baba Yaga is (though she was a frequent part of my childhood folklore), and after you Google her, likely think the very question is silly. You don't even have to ponder her existence, since she is simply not a part of your life. You know she is a made up character from story books, and to consider whether or not she is real would be rather insane.
So, in the same way that you are not-so-much convinced as simply consider the idea of pondering whether she exists to be preposterous and ridiculous, I consider the idea of pondering whether god exists to be ridiculous as well. To me it is as productive to consider as it would be to wonder whether to be convinced that there is a teapot orbiting the sun on the other side where we can't see it. Sure? Maybe? It sounds silly, and why does it matter?

But Baba Yaga does exist.  Maybe not on earth, but somewhere in the infinite universe, on some dimension, she exists.  In fact she exists infinitely.  How do I know she exists?  Because I have channeled spongebob and if he exists, any other fictional character surely does.

Yes, I do. My faith is something I struggle with daily, however.

Why so?

[Rassah]

But Baba Yaga does exist.  Maybe not on earth, but somewhere in the infinite universe, on some dimension, she exists.  In fact she exists infinitely.  How do I know she exists?  Because I have channeled spongebob and if he exists, any other fictional character surely does.

Can't argue that. In infinite universes full of infinite possibilities, everything exists somewhere. It just has zero relevance on our universe here. So, until Baba Yaga manages to open a portal into our universe, I won't worry about her.

[dank]

Awesome.  So you understand how a universal consciousness exists somewhere too, right?

[Rassah]

Awesome.  So you understand how a universal consciousness exists somewhere too, right?

Yes. In that universe. Not in ours.

[Vod]

Yes, I do. My faith is something I struggle with daily, however.

Were you forced to go to church as a child?  If so, your struggle is probably your intelligence fighting against your brainwashing.  Good luck in your struggle!

[dank]

Awesome.  So you understand how a universal consciousness exists somewhere too, right?

Yes. In that universe. Not in ours.

Universe means one.  You are admitting god existing in the universe but not your reality.

[Spendulus]

Yes, I do. My faith is something I struggle with daily, however.

Were you forced to go to church as a child?  If so, your struggle is probably your intelligence fighting against your brainwashing.  Good luck in your struggle!

Look, I know why you and many others are unbelievers.  It's all because the GoodBook talks about wine.

But not about beer.

Clearly there something very wrong with that book.  Can it be trusted?

[yogi]

Awesome.  So you understand how a universal consciousness exists somewhere too, right?

Yes. In that universe. Not in ours.

Universe means one.  You are admitting god existing in the universe but not your reality.

There would be infinitely many gods, which one to pray to?

/edit
You would also need more than an infinite universe to allow for infinite possibility.
The total sum of infinitely many gods is zero.

[dank]

Awesome.  So you understand how a universal consciousness exists somewhere too, right?

Yes. In that universe. Not in ours.

Universe means one.  You are admitting god existing in the universe but not your reality.

There would be infinitely many gods, which one to pray to?

/edit
You would also need more than an infinite universe to allow for infinite possibility.
The total sum of infinitely many gods is zero.

There's infinite gods indeed.  Which one to pray to?  Yourself seems like the logical answer.  Or to the singular, all encompassing, god.

[yogi]

Awesome.  So you understand how a universal consciousness exists somewhere too, right?

Yes. In that universe. Not in ours.

Universe means one.  You are admitting god existing in the universe but not your reality.

There would be infinitely many gods, which one to pray to?

/edit
You would also need more than an infinite universe to allow for infinite possibility.
The total sum of infinitely many gods is zero.

There's infinite gods indeed.  Which one to pray to?  Yourself seems like the logical answer.  Or to the singular, all encompassing, god.

For every god that wants the sky to be a darker blue, there is a god that wants it lighter. The total effect of your infinitely many gods is zero. So whether you are right or not it has absolutely no relevance to anything.

[dank]

You're thinking if infinite gods are in a collective reality.  We each control our own reality which makes your alternation of conscious very relevant to your reality.

[yogi]

You're thinking if infinite gods are in a collective reality.  We each control our own reality which makes your alternation of conscious very relevant to your reality.

Firstly your definition of reality is wrong. The key to understanding the meaning of the word reality is the first bit 'real'. Reality is the domain of the real, if it does not exist in reality then it does not exist. There is only one reality, things either exists or they do not, even if they exist in a different dimension.

If we did all have a unique version of reality then we would disagree on objective facts, which we don't.