cedivad is gathering funs for legel action against HashFast

[iCEBREAKER]

Prolog:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=318706.0

Since cedivad won't allow pefectly reasonable, on-topic discussion such as this

The honest path would have been for HashFast to simply admit they need the money to pay for NRE and are unwilling to make a price adjustment or refund...not to pretend Dec 31st is an acceptable delivery date.

HashFast, you need to stop making these kind of statements about looking at ROI in USD. You're making hardware to mine Bitcoins and ROI is measured in BTC, period. You lose credibility every time you make a statement like this...it really sounds like you have no idea what you're talking about.

Hi kaerf,

Hashfast paid their NRE and (unlike Cointerra) taped-out in August:

HashFast and Uniquify Announce Tape Out of "Golden Nonce" Bitcoin Network Transaction Verification Chip to TSMC's 28HPM Process

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/hashfast-uniquify-announce-tape-golden-175723250.html

Miners look at ROI in both BTC and USD.  Otherwise, they would keep mining even if BTC crashed to zero and electricity went to the moon.

Of course I had hoped to at least break even in BTC, but the very real chance to break even in fiat is a good consolation prize.

in his thread, I've made one where the open exchange of ideas is appreciated, not slandered as "trolling."

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[iCEBREAKER]

It isn't HashFast's fault cedivad can't comprehend a simple Terms and Conditions agreement specifying DEC 31 as the deadline after which refunds are issued.

Oct 20th - 30th is (obviously) the old range for the anticipated start of shipping, and (obviously) not the entirety of guaranteed shipping dates.

HashFast never promised to start shipping Batch 1 on Oct 20th.

HashFast never promised to finish shipping Batch 1 on Oct 30th.

HashFast never committed to shipping all Batch 1 orders in 10 days.

That interpretation is prima facie absurd and cedivad is going to be laughed out of court.

EDIT: Even if cedivad has the best lawyer he can afford...

[dropt]

Personally I don't think cedivad has a leg to stand on.  IIRC he doesn't even have a copy of the terms of sale he agreed to.  It also appears as though he isn't (wasn't?) able to critically evaluate the ToS as it is.

I'm interested to hear legitimate discussion on the topic, not because I'm interested in legal action though.

[kaerf]

Hi kaerf,

Hashfast paid their NRE and (unlike Cointerra) taped-out in August:

yes, that's my point...they spent the money already (and tape-out was announced in Sept). i should have used the word "needed" instead of "need".

Miners look at ROI in both BTC and USD.  Otherwise, they would keep mining even if BTC crashed to zero and electricity went to the moon.

Of course I had hoped to at least break even in BTC, but the very real chance to break even in fiat is a good consolation prize.

if you want to measure your ROI in USD..fine by me -- i prefer not to lose btc. Hashfast trying to twist the fact that customers are losing BTC but potentially gaining USD (due to exchange rate) is disingenuous.

[dropt]

if you want to measure your ROI in USD..fine by me -- i prefer not to lose btc. Hashfast trying to twist the fact that customers are losing BTC but potentially gaining USD (due to exchange rate) is disingenuous.

Oddly enough, when I spoke with Eduardo he assured me all ROI metrics were evaluated (by HF) in BTC.

[dopamine]

if you want to measure your ROI in USD..fine by me -- i prefer not to lose btc. Hashfast trying to twist the fact that customers are losing BTC but potentially gaining USD (due to exchange rate) is disingenuous.

Oddly enough, when I spoke with Eduardo he assured me all ROI metrics were evaluated (by HF) in BTC.

I feel sorry for anyone that owns a hashfast preorder thinking that we would at least get RIO. I dont see them meeting mid nov deadline. They over price the hardware only selling the idea that they will ship starting oct 20.

[cedivad]

I'm sincerely interested in knowing how much your services sells for, icebreaker.
I really don't want to lose time arguing on every other lay you posted...

Personally I don't think cedivad has a leg to stand on. IIRC he doesn't even have a copy of the terms of sale he agreed to.  It also appears as though he isn't (wasn't?) able to critically evaluate the ToS as it is.

1) I personally think i do.
2) I have a copy of the terms; i was asking a copy of the terms of the people that agreed before me.
3) I think to be able to read and to do a critical evaluation of some text. I read contracts in English from when i was 15, after all. Thanks anyway for your trust.

[perezoso]

Oddly enough, when I spoke with Eduardo he assured me all ROI metrics were evaluated (by HF) in BTC.

Yes, they have said that a few times.

[iCEBREAKER]

I think to be able to read and to do a critical evaluation of some text.

I read contracts in English from when i was 15, after all. Thanks anyway for your trust.

"I think to be able to read and to do a critical evaluation of some text?"

What is this gibberish?  You can't even a complete, grammatically correct sentence.  And you expect us to you can read a contract?

Yes or no, do the Terms and Conditions to which you agreed state a deadline of Dec 31?

Please answer with a simple yes or no.  We don't want you to further embarrass/possible injure yourself trying to another sentence, after all.   

[cedivad]

English is not my first language. Yet, i don't see the mistake i did in that phrase. Please, show me your deep knowledge.
I will reply by asking a better question.

Do federal consumer protection laws apply to HF?

You can troll how much you want on your points, but you won't win any fans - they already knows your pathetic techniques.

[crumbs]

I know FTC laws apply to selling within US, but internationally?  The definition of "consumer" might also be iffy when dealing with big pricey lots of (potentially custom-built) industrial HW.  Honestly don't know.

[iCEBREAKER]

Do federal consumer protection laws apply to HF?

I already responded to this question in the other thread, but you deleted the post because you didn't like the answer.

BTW, exactly what "law" "obligates" HashFast to "ship within 30-60days or have to provide a refund?"

Are you referring to the Ultimate Law of Things Pulled Directly From MikeyVeez' Ass, Section 1159 Article 14 Chapter 5?   

Here you go mental handicap:

When You Must Cancel an Order

You must cancel an order and provide a prompt refund when:the customer exercises any option to cancel before you ship the merchandise;

http://www.business.ftc.gov/documents/bus02-business-guide-mail-and-telephone-order-merchandise-rule

If I ask for a refund before you have shipped the order your are required by law to issue one. Of course this discussion has been going on since BFL/Avalon the fact that you have no clue about this simple law shows your mental retardation.

   You are playing Internet Lawyer, and don't know the diff between a rule and a law.   

Also, your links clearly says the 30 day rule only applies in the absence of a time stated by the seller:

If, after taking the customer’s order, you learn that you cannot ship within the time you stated  or within 30 days, you must seek the customer’s consent to the delayed shipment. If you cannot obtain the customer’s consent to the delay -- either because it is not a situation in which you are permitted to treat the customer’s silence as consent and the customer has not expressly consented to the delay, or because the customer has expressly refused to consent -- y

[joeventura]

Oh when you said:

cedivad is gathering funs for legel action against HashFast

You meant:

Cedivad is gathering funds for legal action against HashFast

to which I say....


SERIOUSLY??

Let me find some BFL customers for you to speak to.

You don't know what LATE is.

[cedivad]

Again, you are making things up.

Customers are entitled to full refunds if they cancel their order, independently from the promised shipping date of a preorder. Full point.

Is there still someone other than you missing the point?

[eneloop]

Customers are entitled to full refunds if they cancel their order, independently from the promised shipping date of a preorder. Full point.

Remember that this does not apply to on-demand built stuff.
Courts have to clarify first if it's really an on-demand order or just a preorder for a mass-produced article. I'm totally with you if it's the second one.

[iCEBREAKER]

Customers are entitled to full refunds if they cancel their order, independently from the promised shipping date of a preorder. Full point.

Is there still someone other than you missing the point?

Well, that certainly is your opinion.  Of course, you don't know the difference between an FTC rule and an actual law, so that opinion counts for very little.

From https://hashfast.com/checkout/terms-of-sale:

3. DELIVERY AND QUANTITIES.
(a) Guaranteed Baby Jet Delivery Dates – Batch 1. All of the 550 Baby Jet units from Hashfast’s first production batch are guaranteed for delivery by December 31, 2013.

Many people don't agree with your points and POV.

But you deleted their posts, like a coward afraid to defend his hasty conclusions from inconvenient scrutiny.

[cedivad]

I only deleted your posts from my thread. Any moderator can confirm that.
When will you stop lying?

[iCEBREAKER]

When will you stop lying?

When will you learn to read?

3. DELIVERY AND QUANTITIES.
(a) Guaranteed Baby Jet Delivery Dates – Batch 1. All of the 550 Baby Jet units from Hashfast’s first production batch are guaranteed for delivery by December 31, 2013.

When will you learn to only risk what you can afford to lose?

When will you learn to stop blaming others for your own lack of due diligence and responsibility?

[cedivad]

And let's not forget that the firsts batch 1 customers never had that date on their ToS.
I keep forgetting about them.

[iCEBREAKER]

And let's not forget that the firsts batch 1 customers never had that date on their ToS.

Wrong again.  Some batch 1 customers did have "that date" on their ToS.

Did you have Dec 31 in your ToS?