Bitcoin Forum
October 23, 2017, 02:03:34 PM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.15.0.1  [Torrent]. (New!)
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 [2]  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Why buying mining hardware IS almost always BETTER then JUST investing.  (Read 4301 times)
aynstein
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 128

Fortune favors the bold, and sometimes the bald.


View Profile
November 02, 2013, 08:50:43 AM
 #21


I am mining at a loss, but it's been a fun experiment, and I know I am helping the value of the coins I purchased.


This is just my opinion I've got lots of dumb ones and occasionally I have a good one. I think this is a good one.

Or maybe I am just trying to make myself feel better.


Regardless, Bitcoin is not a spectator investment. Stay involved.

Cheers.

 Grin

tips - 13WGRNzvjPGHcQicsdn65vEJvLhUydu4m5

Yeah, you answered your own questions.


What was my question I answered? Or are you just happy I have dumb opinions?

The title of the thread "Why buying mining hardware IS almost always BETTER then JUST investing"
No I'm sad you have dumb questions.



I am sorry if you misunderstood the title to be a question. Why is both an answer and a question. Why is it? Why it is. It was used in the form of an explanation in this case. When did this become about dumb questions? As I clearly pointed out I often have dumb ideas, but I didn't refer to dumb questions. Personally I think that a question is only seen as dumb by those unable or unwilling to put it in context. Is a question about where babies come from dumb from a child? How about a person with a medical degree and an active obgyn practice. Those unwilling are generally insecure in their own knowledge and find others a threat and their struggle a comfort. The people unable to grasp the context are usually challenged in some way mentally and have a hard time using the more complex thought process it requires.

If I have made some error in my logic with the topic or your thoughts I would genuinely appreciate it if you explain.


Again, this is just my opinion, maybe I am right, maybe not.

 Cheers.

AltaVista 4 Life!
1508767414
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1508767414

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1508767414
Reply with quote  #2

1508767414
Report to moderator
1508767414
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1508767414

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1508767414
Reply with quote  #2

1508767414
Report to moderator
1508767414
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1508767414

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1508767414
Reply with quote  #2

1508767414
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
TheQuin
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 336



View Profile
November 02, 2013, 03:59:42 PM
 #22


I am mining at a loss, but it's been a fun experiment, and I know I am helping the value of the coins I purchased.


This is just my opinion I've got lots of dumb ones and occasionally I have a good one. I think this is a good one.

Or maybe I am just trying to make myself feel better.


Regardless, Bitcoin is not a spectator investment. Stay involved.

Cheers.

 Grin

tips - 13WGRNzvjPGHcQicsdn65vEJvLhUydu4m5

Yeah, you answered your own questions.


What was my question I answered? Or are you just happy I have dumb opinions?

The title of the thread "Why buying mining hardware IS almost always BETTER then JUST investing"
No I'm sad you have dumb questions.



I am sorry if you misunderstood the title to be a question. Why is both an answer and a question. Why is it? Why it is. It was used in the form of an explanation in this case. When did this become about dumb questions? As I clearly pointed out I often have dumb ideas, but I didn't refer to dumb questions. Personally I think that a question is only seen as dumb by those unable or unwilling to put it in context. Is a question about where babies come from dumb from a child? How about a person with a medical degree and an active obgyn practice. Those unwilling are generally insecure in their own knowledge and find others a threat and their struggle a comfort. The people unable to grasp the context are usually challenged in some way mentally and have a hard time using the more complex thought process it requires.

If I have made some error in my logic with the topic or your thoughts I would genuinely appreciate it if you explain.


Again, this is just my opinion, maybe I am right, maybe not.

 Cheers.

Not to get into grammar and all that, I slightly misread it, starting the sentence with "why" made me think of it as a question. It is indeed a statement, but if you take "why" off the front and it becomes a clearer statement.

A statement that I believe to be completely wrong. At any point in Bitcoin's brief history if you had taken the money spent on mining hardware and bought BTC instead and held it you would be better off now.

If you have an example to prove this point wrong I'm always willing to take it on board. That's not to be confused with being insecure, it is being open minded.




         ▄▄███▄▄
     ▄▄███████████▄▄
 ▄▄███████████████████▄▄
██████████████████████████
  ▀▀██████████████████▀▀ ▄▄
      ▀▀██████████▀▀ ▄▄████
          ▀▀█▀▀ ▄▄█████████
             ▄█████████████
             ██████████████
             ██████████████
             ██████████████
             ██████████████
             █████████████▀
             █████████▀▀
             █████▀▀
             ▀▀▀
.
Brickblock.io
║║
║║
║║
║║
║║
.
║║
║║
║║
║║
║║





                  ▄▄██▄
              ▄▄█▀▀  ██
          ▄▄█▀▀      █▌
      ▄▄█▀▀   ▄▀    ██
 ▄▄▄█▀▀    ▄█▀     ▐█
██      ▄██▀       █▌
 ▀▀██▄███▀        ██
     ██▀▀█▄▄▄     █▌
      █▄  ██▀▀▀█▄██
       █▄█▀




       ▄▄▄▄▄▄
    ▄████████
    █████▀▀▀▀
   ▐████
   ▐████
████████████
████████████
   ▐████
   ▐████
   ▐████
   ▐████




                 ▄████▄▄    ▄
██             ████████████▀
████▄         █████████████▀
▀████████▄▄   █████████████
▄▄█████████████████████████
██████████████████████████
  ▀██████████████████████
   █████████████████████
    ▀█████████████████▀
      ▄█████████████▀
▄▄███████████████▀
   ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀



▄▄▄                  ▄▄▄
█████▄             ▄██████▄
█████████▄        ████████████▄
██████████▌▄     ██████████████
██████████▌▐█  ▄█████████████▀▄█
██████████▌▐██▄▀████████████ ███
██████████▌▐████▀██████████ ████
██████████▌▐█████ ███████▀▄█████
██████████▌ ▀█████▄▀████ ███████
██████████▌   ▀▀████ ██▄████████
▀█████████▌      ▀▀▀▀ ▄█████████
   ▀▀█████▌             ▀▀██████
        ▀█▌                  ▀▀█
║║
║║
║║
║║
║║
.
af_newbie
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1190



View Profile
November 02, 2013, 04:13:39 PM
 #23

Or maybe I am just trying to make myself feel better.

You are rationalizing a really bad decision.

Running hardware is fun, sure.  Especially when it fails in the middle of the night.
To be honest, the initial fun wears off pretty quickly.

I guess if you treat this as a hobby it is ok.  Just don't go out and buy 200 Monarchs...

Buying hardware as an investment is a pretty bad decision.  But few boards here and there
is ok just to "be" in the game.

I'm one mini rig away from getting out of mining.  Give me 12K and it is yours.
Lots of fun. 
TheQuin
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 336



View Profile
November 02, 2013, 04:45:05 PM
 #24

Or maybe I am just trying to make myself feel better.

You are rationalizing a really bad decision.


You pretty much nailed it there. Denial.

It is difficult for many to admit their mistakes, and they can make endless "reasons" to justify to themselves that they were right despite all evidence to the contrary.

Good luck on selling the Minirig. In the end I found out that selling the hardware at the right time after mining with it for a short time is the most profitable thing I've done in Bitcoin so far.






         ▄▄███▄▄
     ▄▄███████████▄▄
 ▄▄███████████████████▄▄
██████████████████████████
  ▀▀██████████████████▀▀ ▄▄
      ▀▀██████████▀▀ ▄▄████
          ▀▀█▀▀ ▄▄█████████
             ▄█████████████
             ██████████████
             ██████████████
             ██████████████
             ██████████████
             █████████████▀
             █████████▀▀
             █████▀▀
             ▀▀▀
.
Brickblock.io
║║
║║
║║
║║
║║
.
║║
║║
║║
║║
║║





                  ▄▄██▄
              ▄▄█▀▀  ██
          ▄▄█▀▀      █▌
      ▄▄█▀▀   ▄▀    ██
 ▄▄▄█▀▀    ▄█▀     ▐█
██      ▄██▀       █▌
 ▀▀██▄███▀        ██
     ██▀▀█▄▄▄     █▌
      █▄  ██▀▀▀█▄██
       █▄█▀




       ▄▄▄▄▄▄
    ▄████████
    █████▀▀▀▀
   ▐████
   ▐████
████████████
████████████
   ▐████
   ▐████
   ▐████
   ▐████




                 ▄████▄▄    ▄
██             ████████████▀
████▄         █████████████▀
▀████████▄▄   █████████████
▄▄█████████████████████████
██████████████████████████
  ▀██████████████████████
   █████████████████████
    ▀█████████████████▀
      ▄█████████████▀
▄▄███████████████▀
   ▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀▀



▄▄▄                  ▄▄▄
█████▄             ▄██████▄
█████████▄        ████████████▄
██████████▌▄     ██████████████
██████████▌▐█  ▄█████████████▀▄█
██████████▌▐██▄▀████████████ ███
██████████▌▐████▀██████████ ████
██████████▌▐█████ ███████▀▄█████
██████████▌ ▀█████▄▀████ ███████
██████████▌   ▀▀████ ██▄████████
▀█████████▌      ▀▀▀▀ ▄█████████
   ▀▀█████▌             ▀▀██████
        ▀█▌                  ▀▀█
║║
║║
║║
║║
║║
.
Radelderth
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 206


View Profile
November 03, 2013, 01:50:29 AM
 #25

No please, you got your title wrong...  Why buying mining hardware IS almost always WORSE then JUST investing.

high110
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 210


View Profile
November 03, 2013, 04:55:07 AM
 #26

I have to admit...buying shares on CEX.io did bring me back to the fun of mining which lead to me purchasing a Avalon machine and shares from some other guys selling contracts...

If you don't have money..CEX.io (signature) is a good place to start...if you do have money cointerra, might be your best option as they will compensate you for your purchase if they deliver late...i guess in the form of more hash?
the joint
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1806



View Profile
November 03, 2013, 05:08:26 AM
 #27

Buying hardware can be better than investing in BTC under a certain set of conditions.  Generally, these conditions are as follows:

1) Hardware must be purchased with fiat, or BTC used to purchase hardware must be repurchased immediately.  ROI must be calculated in terms of fiat.
2) Value of BTC must go down after date of purchase
3) If you sell your hardware such that (selling price + value of mined BTC) > (purchase price), then you're in the green.  If you had purchased BTC from the get go, you'd be in the red.

At this point, it's essentially impossible to find a deal on hardware that would enable you to mine more BTC than you could purchase with fiat.  So, if you think the price of BTC will increase in the future, it is absolutely better to invest in BTC.  If you think there's a reasonable chance that the price of BTC could drop, there is some probability that investing in hardware is better.

It worked for me on 5 out of 6 occasions.  I failed to meet ROI once on a BFL device I sold as a pre-order, and that was because I had paid up front with BTC and didn't repurchase the BTC.  Even my first purchase of block erupters already reached ROI, and the second batch I purchased will ROI in a few weeks.  That being said, don't expect this to work in your favor very often.

TL;DR: Buying the right hardware and selling at the right time can be advantageous (and even profitable) when faced against a drop in BTC value, but good luck having the stars align for you!

sidehack
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1484

Curmudgeonly hardware guy


View Profile
November 03, 2013, 07:22:10 AM
 #28

Just throwing this out there, but

Quote
At any point in Bitcoin's brief history if you had taken the money spent on mining hardware and bought BTC instead and held it you would be better off now.

If everyone, or even a majority, had decided to just buy instead of mining, the supply would be much less, the utility as a currency would be much less, the demand would be much less and the value would be much less. Also it would be freakin' boring.

Quote
Running hardware is fun, sure... To be honest, the initial fun wears off pretty quickly.

I've gotten almost daily enjoyment out of finagling and maintaining mining hardware and software for going on six months, with less than $1000 total spent (and most of that returned and reinvested). For me it's comparable to the guys that buy and restore old cars. Sure I could have doubled my money by just buying coin six months ago and selling it today, but what fun is that? How is the network, or even the *concept* of Bitcoin in any way benefited by my doing that? I profit from someone else's work and someone else's greed and meanwhile nothing actually gets done. Not buying hardware was never even an option.

Selling seconds 2Pacs for a friend's med bills - PM for details
Currently in development - 20-120GH USB stick; 700GH 75W pod; 4TH volt-adjustable S1/3/5 upgrade kit
Server PSU interface boards and cables. USB and small-scale miners. Hardware hosting, advice and odd-jobs. Supporting the home miner community since 2013 - http://www.gekkoscience.com
TooDumbForBitcoin
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1183


HERO: The Future of Banking in Southeast Asia


View Profile
November 03, 2013, 04:09:28 PM
 #29

Quote
f everyone, or even a majority, had decided to just buy instead of mining, the supply would be much less,

If only one CPU in the universe had been mining from 2009 to now, the BTC supply would be ~85% of what it is now.

▄████████████████████▄
██████████████████████
██████  ██████████████
██████  ██████████████
██████  ██████████████
██████  ██      ██████
██████  █  ████  █████
██████   ██████  █████
██████  ███████  █████
██████  ███████  █████
██████████████████████
██████████████████████
▀████████████████████▀
  HERO 
...                                                                                                   ...
                The Future of Banking in Southeast Asia                   
           ■ Website   ■ Whitepaper   ■ Bounties   ■ Join our Slack         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
      PRE-SALE       
      starting soon       
                                                                                                                                           
Xyver
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 190


View Profile
November 03, 2013, 09:14:05 PM
 #30

Ya'll still missing the point.

Investing and making money is good, but if there are NO MINERS THERE IS NO NETWORK.

Mining is crucial.  You should be thanking all the people who are mining at a loss to PROTECT YOUR NETWORK THAT YOU HAVE MONEY INVESTED IN AND ARE PROFITING OFF OF.

No miners, no BTC.  Keeping BTC alive is worth more then profiting to some people.
ajw7989
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 924


View Profile
November 03, 2013, 09:27:13 PM
 #31

I think everyone would be happy making money either way. This is viewed as a hobby in many ways which of course usually always costs money. I can see both views, it all comes down to why you are interested in bitcoin. I personally would not mind investing or buying miners however I feel the mining companies are taking advantage of the average miner. If their greed was a little less and would give miners a fair shot at coming to close to breaking even I wouldn't mind supporting the network. Keep in mind although you are supporting the network you are also supporting their greed which is why I will not invest in any expensive miners (several hundreds to thousands of dollars). If people will do this the mining companies will have to change their policy reminds me of how microsoft changed their policies after the public's outrage. The hash rate is already at an incredible amount that a temporary boycott will not affect it (especially since the difficulty is increasing at such a rapid rate). Just my 2 cents
ralree
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 518


Manateeeeeeees


View Profile
November 03, 2013, 09:33:04 PM
 #32

Yes, diversity of the network is key to bitcoin's success.  If mining becomes a centrally-located activity, with a majority of it done by very large players, the value of bitcoin may suffer since things like double-spends become easier for these players.  As long as you make back the same number of BTC a miner cost when you bought it, it's always better to mine.  Consider this scenario:

Miner ordered: BTC = $100, miner = $5000 (50BTC)
Miner delivered: BTC = $150
Miner mines for 2 months: BTC = $200.  Miner has made 50BTC ($10000).

If the miner is completely worthless (even as a curiosity) at the point that it ROIs, and will never make any more BTC after that point, then it is equivalent to buy BTC directly or mine.  If this is not the case, and the miner can be sold or mined with after ROI, mining is better.

Knowing whether any of this will work out is the key, and one has to do lots of research on power calculation, difficulty prediction, delivery dates, reliability, etc.  Mining is not for the faint of heart, nor is it for the novice.  If you want to mine, do your homework.  There will continue to be new offerings from manufacturers, and generally within a couple days of the announcement is a good time to buy if everything checks out.

1MANaTeEZoH4YkgMYz61E5y4s9BYhAuUjG
TooDumbForBitcoin
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1183


HERO: The Future of Banking in Southeast Asia


View Profile
November 03, 2013, 09:42:47 PM
 #33

Quote
Investing and making money is good, but if there are NO MINERS THERE IS NO NETWORK.

No one is talking about "no miners".

The debate is, "buy gear now, or invest in BTC now".  The answer is, "unless you can get gear in hand tomorrow at less than $10/GH/s, you're better off investing in BTC".

If no more mining gear were ever purchased starting today, the network would remain static forever (once all existing pre-orders were filled), and BTC would be secure forever.

▄████████████████████▄
██████████████████████
██████  ██████████████
██████  ██████████████
██████  ██████████████
██████  ██      ██████
██████  █  ████  █████
██████   ██████  █████
██████  ███████  █████
██████  ███████  █████
██████████████████████
██████████████████████
▀████████████████████▀
  HERO 
...                                                                                                   ...
                The Future of Banking in Southeast Asia                   
           ■ Website   ■ Whitepaper   ■ Bounties   ■ Join our Slack         
                                                                                                                                                                                                                         
      PRE-SALE       
      starting soon       
                                                                                                                                           
Pages: « 1 [2]  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!