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Author Topic: Can't stop it.  (Read 2893 times)
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November 01, 2013, 03:11:36 PM
 #21

I’m a capitalist because I believe nothing better exists, but I live in hope.

The hope is a post-scarcity society.  If technology keeps advancing and we can avoid resetting the clock with something like nuclear war it will eventually happen it might be a century, it might be a millennium but it will happen.

Capitalism is simply a mechanism for allocating scarce resources.  There is no better allocation mechanism but when resources are no longer scarce it simply won't be needed (or it will be constrained to the few areas which are beyond post-scarcity).
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November 01, 2013, 03:26:10 PM
 #22

I’m a capitalist because I believe nothing better exists, but I live in hope.

The hope is a post-scarcity society.  If technology keeps advancing and we can avoid resetting the clock with something like nuclear war it will eventually happen it might be a century, it might be a millennium but it will happen.

Capitalism is simply a mechanism for allocating scarce resources.  There is no better allocation mechanism but resources are no longer scarce it simply won't be needed (or it will be constrained to the few areas which are beyond post-scarcity).

precisely.
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November 01, 2013, 03:31:59 PM
 #23

I’m a capitalist because I believe nothing better exists, but I live in hope.

The hope is a post-scarcity society.  If technology keeps advancing and we can avoid resetting the clock with something like nuclear war it will eventually happen it might be a century, it might be a millennium but it will happen.

Capitalism is simply a mechanism for allocating scarce resources.  There is no better allocation mechanism but resources are no longer scarce it simply won't be needed (or it will be constrained to the few areas which are beyond post-scarcity).

Scarcity of resources is a mythical force. In North America we would have plenty of everything if the population dropped to 500,000. Well, not plenty of traffic, but as far as raw resources are concerned there would not be a shortage.

Capitalism is an incentive program to generate useful labor.

Communism, democracy, republic, federation, fascism, take your pick, but all of these concepts had to be invented. Perhaps the world of the future will give us a new "-ism" that has yet to be imagined or defined. In a bitcoin-driven world we may no longer have a voice in what that "-ism" is. Perhaps an "-ism" where contributing to society is completely voluntary.
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November 01, 2013, 04:10:51 PM
 #24

nope, its the product of human nature greed...

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November 01, 2013, 05:26:56 PM
 #25

. How could anyone just "opt out [of Bitcoin]?"

More over how does one opt out of the crazy world of exponential growth - environmental destruction; economic inequality - poverty; voluntary enslavement - debt slaves ignoring the youth of today because we work longer hours for less.

Bitcoin is a blessing not a problem. 

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November 01, 2013, 05:32:44 PM
 #26

. I really hope we got it right, or we are fucked.

Your concerns are nonsense, if you don't want children being exploited don't buy from the exploiters.
Bitcoin is the bridge to regaining humanity it is moving towards the laws of Nature or God's way if you are religious.

You just need a little faith!

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November 01, 2013, 05:44:31 PM
 #27

Capitalism is simply a mechanism for allocating scarce resources.  There is no better allocation mechanism but when resources are no longer scarce it simply won't be needed (or it will be constrained to the few areas which are beyond post-scarcity).
I think you confuse two different things : capitalism and the market.

The market is the best mechanism for allocating scarce resources, and it's main tool is the price. The price is the best instrument we can ever imagine to ration out what is scarce.

Capitalism is a term which was first coined by Karl Marx and which designed the accumulation of capital goods under private ownership. And this, my friend, is human nature.
Humans want to improve their condition, so since they exist they spare some of the present production to have a bigger future production. And it happens they do so more effectively under private ownership.

We can imagine capitalism (i.e. private accumulation of goods) without market (i.e. without volontary exchanges). It's the market which do the job of allocating the resources, not the capitalism.


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November 01, 2013, 05:58:28 PM
 #28

Thanks for the above I was going to say something similar.
Free market - ism - nothing better exists.

Capitalism is a corrupted word - while it includes FRB it is dead to me.

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November 01, 2013, 06:08:24 PM
 #29

Cryptocurrency is just the latest (and perhaps most substantial) step on the way to a technocracy. And you can't stop it, that's true. And there will be unforeseen consequence once it becomes more prevalent, and if it becomes dominant (big tantrums from the corporations that lose influence in a cryptocurrency based world could at least slow down such a progression).

You can't stop human nature though, and you can't put this idea back into Pandora's box. For better or worse, we're stuck with this avenue of history now. All signs and analysis so far suggest that it will be an improvement on the monetary system we have. I think that might be why we're all here, holding a BTC balance and talking it through, no?

Vires in numeris
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November 01, 2013, 06:22:50 PM
 #30

Nonsense.   If someone doesn't like Bitcoin or feels it got it wrong they can opt out.  Nobody can be forced to accept Bitcoins, nobody can be forced to hold Bitcoins.   There is nothing insidious.  If Bitcoin "got it wrong" then people will opt out, the more that do the smaller and smaller the Bitcoin "ecosystem" it will be.

You opt in or you opt out.  You are voting with your actions.

It began with 0 miners and a source code and it can end when the last disillusioned miners clicks the off switch.  The source code will remain but being open source it can be forked to a project that does "get it right".
I'm not saying you are wrong but I do believe there is still some merit to OP's concerns. Best case scenario for Bitcoin is that it takes over as the currency for all world wide exchange (I'm not speculating in the likelihood of this scenario, just saying it's the best one possible). If this where to happen I can't see how this would not be very chaotic towards the end. Once it hits the tipping point it becomes a race to the finish line and a alot of people and organizations stand to lose a lot of wealth if they are the last ones in. I simply don't see any orderly way to reach world adoption, and this could lead to a lot of world wide political turbulence.
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November 01, 2013, 06:58:00 PM
 #31

I'm not saying you are wrong but I do believe there is still some merit to OP's concerns. Best case scenario for Bitcoin is that it takes over as the currency for all world wide exchange (I'm not speculating in the likelihood of this scenario, just saying it's the best one possible). If this where to happen I can't see how this would not be very chaotic towards the end. Once it hits the tipping point it becomes a race to the finish line and a alot of people and organizations stand to lose a lot of wealth if they are the last ones in. I simply don't see any orderly way to reach world adoption, and this could lead to a lot of world wide political turbulence.
If Bitcoin suceed some people will lose their power and wealth, yes. How bad is that?

Do you prefer a world where the rich and powerful stay at the top forever?


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November 02, 2013, 12:32:48 AM
 #32

OP is equivocating between two situations: one where a given person can (practically) opt out and one where even a majority of people can't opt out. The first is possible, but the second isn't. One person opting out would be cut off from most of the division of labor, but a majority opting out would - by definition - not be.

OP is also thinking too vaguely. Identify specific problems before worrying.

However, OP is quite correct in the sense that Bitcoin is going to change the world radically and we have no way of knowing for certain that it will be a positive change on net. Nothing in life is certain. What we can see from history and basic observation is that it is very highly likely to be a very positive change on net, for most people at least.

The fact that there could possibly be some terrible unforeseen consequence must be balanced by a perspective on how the world is now: in many ways and for many people, total Hell. And compared to where we could be without stifling interference - living forever by now perhaps - even the affluent life many live is relatively Hell (we get old and fricking die - that sucks!).

People have identified thousands of ways Bitcoin will make the world way better, but I have never seen a significant plausible way Bitcoin could make the world worse (economic ignorance will produce many fake scares; let's just say I've never seen anyone who understands Austrian economics and natural order mention a significant downside, with the possible exception of being able to track transactions, which isn't an unmitigated bad thing either).
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November 02, 2013, 12:43:54 AM
 #33

You just can't stop technology in general. You can only slow that process but some things are inevitable. You may or may not like it but you definitely should profit from that as much as you can. Other option is being depressed and being hurt.

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November 02, 2013, 02:11:51 PM
 #34

I'm not saying you are wrong but I do believe there is still some merit to OP's concerns. Best case scenario for Bitcoin is that it takes over as the currency for all world wide exchange (I'm not speculating in the likelihood of this scenario, just saying it's the best one possible). If this where to happen I can't see how this would not be very chaotic towards the end. Once it hits the tipping point it becomes a race to the finish line and a alot of people and organizations stand to lose a lot of wealth if they are the last ones in. I simply don't see any orderly way to reach world adoption, and this could lead to a lot of world wide political turbulence.
If Bitcoin suceed some people will lose their power and wealth, yes. How bad is that?

Do you prefer a world where the rich and powerful stay at the top forever?
I think you misunderstand. First, some innocent people could lose a lot of their wealth as well, say someone who has worked their entire life and been saving in fiat. That is bad and unfortunate. Second, if the way towards a bitcoin world is very chaotic then the political fallout could lead to some very bad actions from powerful people with the support from regular people who simply were on the losing side of the wealth distribution. In the long run, a bitcoin world would bring a lot of good to the world, I'm saying the road there could bring out the worst of some people.
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November 02, 2013, 11:10:44 PM
 #35

I believe that;

Future will be change almost everything including money and payment system. World digitalized already. Most of our money just numbers in our bank accounts. But this system works for banks. You put money to the bank and bank borrow it 10 times to the clients. Makes money with no effort. People work just for interest. Finance system is the only winner. But bitcoin is more than money. It is system that finishes actual financial system and changes the world to a future way.

But it is very weak an open for manupations for now. But i hope it will be more powerfull in the future. It is growning up day by day.
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November 02, 2013, 11:50:53 PM
 #36

Isn't it a good thing to beyond control?

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November 03, 2013, 04:25:31 AM
 #37

Rival wrote a thought-provoking post, using an enjoyably-mysterious writing style, about the unknown realities of our post-genesis-block world.  Sure he was dramatic, but in the name of theatre.  Sure he was vague, but to encourage thoughtful discussion.  

What I took from his post was that the crypto cat Satoshi's Cat is out of the bag and things will never be the same.  Let us pray that bitcoin is good for mankind.  


(And I'm confident it is).

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November 03, 2013, 01:03:48 PM
 #38

Just for the record, I believe in the end humanity as a whole will benefit. But for now we see through the glass darkly. I would be surprised if any of our current predictions or assumptions come to pass. The average human makes a very poor oracle.
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