[ANN] [SKC] Skeincoin 0.9.3.1 | Skein-SHA2

[Red Kendra]

Should Skeincoin be hard-forked to allow merged mining with other Skein coins, most notably Myriadcoin?

For those not familiar with merged mining, it allows two coins to be mined at the same time using a special pool.

Opinions welcome.

No. I'm generally against adding merge mining at such a late stage, and merge-mining with Myriadcoin seems like it'd add even more complications than usual, given its use of multiple algorithms.

With that said, it's time for another checkpoint, and there should probably be checkpoints on a frequent basis given that difficulty is so low.

If we decide to merge mine with Myriad coin, we will only merge mine with the Skein algorithm of Myriadcoin, so in that sense it won't be much different from other merge mining.

The advantage of this is higher hash rate for Skeincoin. At the moment the difficulty for Skeincoin is around 4 and for Myriadcoin's skein algorithm it is around 2000.

Something to also consider is that Skeincoin will be mined in the majority by miners who don't necessarily want to collect Skeincoin and they'll probably sell all their Skeincoin as soon as they mine them.

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[Red Kendra]

If we decide to merge mine with Myriad coin, we will only merge mine with the Skein algorithm of Myriadcoin, so in that sense it won't be much different from other merge mining.

I'm going to hold off on the rest of my response (I still have concerns), but can you give me (and probably others on here) a better idea of how the merge mining would work?

I assume you're talking about Namecoin-style merge mining (http://dot-bit.org/Merged_Mining) where SKC is the auxiliary blockchain.

Would we have to choose in advance which coin(s) will be the parent blockchain? If so, can this be changed in the future without a new hard fork?

From a quick reading, it looks like it might be possible for solo miners to use *any* coin as the parent coin, as long as that coin has the same basic structure and POW algorithm. This is why there's no need to put all the intricacies of Myriad into the Skeincoin code - the validity of the parent header isn't checked. Do I have this right or am I off base?

I know I said I'd hold off on the rest of my response, but as a preview I want to add this: I want Skeincoin to be a great coin, not just get a short term boost. There's no point putting effort into improving this coin to only make a few hundred bucks. I'm glad we've heard from you and that you haven't abandoned Skeincoin, Red Kendra.

Yes, it is like Namecoin merge mining with Bitcoin.

We will have to make a hard-fork in Skeincoin to add aux-pow. It can then be merge mined with any coin that uses the Skein hashing algorithm, so we won't be tied to one coin. We can actually merge mine with multiple coins at the same time, as long as they all use the Skein hash. People will still be able to mine Skeincoin without merge mining if they choose to do so, but the difficulty will be higher than it is now.

We won't need to implement any of the multi-algo features of Myriadcoin, we see Myriadcoin as just another Skein coin and ignore the other algorithms.

[gielbier]

If we decide to merge mine with Myriad coin, we will only merge mine with the Skein algorithm of Myriadcoin, so in that sense it won't be much different from other merge mining.

I'm going to hold off on the rest of my response (I still have concerns), but can you give me (and probably others on here) a better idea of how the merge mining would work?

I assume you're talking about Namecoin-style merge mining (http://dot-bit.org/Merged_Mining) where SKC is the auxiliary blockchain.

Would we have to choose in advance which coin(s) will be the parent blockchain? If so, can this be changed in the future without a new hard fork?

From a quick reading, it looks like it might be possible for solo miners to use *any* coin as the parent coin, as long as that coin has the same basic structure and POW algorithm. This is why there's no need to put all the intricacies of Myriad into the Skeincoin code - the validity of the parent header isn't checked. Do I have this right or am I off base?

I know I said I'd hold off on the rest of my response, but as a preview I want to add this: I want Skeincoin to be a great coin, not just get a short term boost. There's no point putting effort into improving this coin to only make a few hundred bucks. I'm glad we've heard from you and that you haven't abandoned Skeincoin, Red Kendra.

Yes, it is like Namecoin merge mining with Bitcoin.

We will have to make a hard-fork in Skeincoin to add aux-pow. It can then be merge mined with any coin that uses the Skein hashing algorithm, so we won't be tied to one coin. We can actually merge mine with multiple coins at the same time, as long as they all use the Skein hash. People will still be able to mine Skeincoin without merge mining if they choose to do so, but the difficulty will be higher than it is now.

We won't need to implement any of the multi-algo features of Myriadcoin, we see Myriadcoin as just another Skein coin and ignore the other algorithms.

To be honest, i'm a bit hesitant on merged mining with myriad-skein. If ppl don't care about skeincoin and they merge mine skc and blatantly dump on the market, it could pose some problems on profitability, but it might solve the distribution problem. I'm currently still working on something to get distribution going (geofaucets) but thats still not at the level i want it to be to release it.

I propose a meeting on the subject

[chiguireitor]

If we decide to merge mine with Myriad coin, we will only merge mine with the Skein algorithm of Myriadcoin, so in that sense it won't be much different from other merge mining.

I'm going to hold off on the rest of my response (I still have concerns), but can you give me (and probably others on here) a better idea of how the merge mining would work?

I assume you're talking about Namecoin-style merge mining (http://dot-bit.org/Merged_Mining) where SKC is the auxiliary blockchain.

Would we have to choose in advance which coin(s) will be the parent blockchain? If so, can this be changed in the future without a new hard fork?

From a quick reading, it looks like it might be possible for solo miners to use *any* coin as the parent coin, as long as that coin has the same basic structure and POW algorithm. This is why there's no need to put all the intricacies of Myriad into the Skeincoin code - the validity of the parent header isn't checked. Do I have this right or am I off base?

I know I said I'd hold off on the rest of my response, but as a preview I want to add this: I want Skeincoin to be a great coin, not just get a short term boost. There's no point putting effort into improving this coin to only make a few hundred bucks. I'm glad we've heard from you and that you haven't abandoned Skeincoin, Red Kendra.

Yes, it is like Namecoin merge mining with Bitcoin.

We will have to make a hard-fork in Skeincoin to add aux-pow. It can then be merge mined with any coin that uses the Skein hashing algorithm, so we won't be tied to one coin. We can actually merge mine with multiple coins at the same time, as long as they all use the Skein hash. People will still be able to mine Skeincoin without merge mining if they choose to do so, but the difficulty will be higher than it is now.

We won't need to implement any of the multi-algo features of Myriadcoin, we see Myriadcoin as just another Skein coin and ignore the other algorithms.

To be honest, i'm a bit hesitant on merged mining with myriad-skein. If ppl don't care about skeincoin and they merge mine skc and blatantly dump on the market, it could pose some problems on profitability, but it might solve the distribution problem. I'm currently still working on something to get distribution going (geofaucets) but thats still not at the level i want it to be to release it.

I propose a meeting on the subject

Although market price is important (and i fully understand and support your reasoning), network security is #1 priority. I prefer SKC @ 30 sats with diff 2000 than 1 BTC == 1 SKC and 0 difficulty (because the network would be dead).

[Red Kendra]

Lets have a discussion on IRC tomorrow (Sunday) around 12:00 UTC.

[nzsquirrell]

Hi All.

You've not seen me around these parts, but I'm involved with MyriadCoin - I run a p2pool "network" that is working towards supporting other coins via merge mining - see http://myriad.p2pool.geek.nz/merge for which coins we currently operate.

We utilise P2Pool for mining as opposed to traditional pools - to ensure decentralisation of the network. For all our merged coins we do not send to an exchange and convert - instead we allow each miner to register their own payout addresses for their share of the merged funds to be sent to.

Right now we have about 4.4 GH/s of Skein hash rate that could be thrown directly at your coin, if you were to enable merged mining. This would go a long way to securing your network. Not only that, but your miners would also be able to earn MYR at the same time as SKC.

Merged coins will only flourish in the current environment if they have some unique features - take a look at Syscoin (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=757255.0) for an example of what can be achieved with a secure network.

I'm happy to help should you choose to enable merged mining - I can ensure you'd instantly gain a good sized audience of Myriadcoin miners and holders.

Thanks.

[bolvan]

With current price of 30 (lets say 100) sat mining with diff 2000 would be worthless for miners. Additional benefit of mining not just myriad but myriad+skc would be 1 cent per day. Even doesn't worth the time spent on changing configs. If the price for some mystic reason rises enough then we expect dump of 1 year premine - up to 8 mln SKC.

[chiguireitor]

With current price of 30 (lets say 100) sat mining with diff 2000 would be worthless for miners. Additional benefit of mining not just myriad but myriad+skc would be 1 cent per day. Even doesn't worth the time spent on changing configs. If the price for some mystic reason rises enough then we expect dump of 1 year premine - up to 8 mln SKC.

• Price is irrelevant until SKC has utility
• Diff is high when you have a secure network, this is priority #1 for any altcoin
• "Additional benefit of mining not just myriad but myriad+skc" is not some arbitrary price on a given fiat currency, is just the network security
• This coin doesn't has a premine, dunno understand your reasoning on that respect. I know who has almost 10% of the currency and he won't dump

[gielbier]

With current price of 30 (lets say 100) sat mining with diff 2000 would be worthless for miners. Additional benefit of mining not just myriad but myriad+skc would be 1 cent per day. Even doesn't worth the time spent on changing configs. If the price for some mystic reason rises enough then we expect dump of 1 year premine - up to 8 mln SKC.

• Price is irrelevant until SKC has utility
• Diff is high when you have a secure network, this is priority #1 for any altcoin
• "Additional benefit of mining not just myriad but myriad+skc" is not some arbitrary price on a given fiat currency, is just the network security
• This coin doesn't has a premine, dunno understand your reasoning on that respect. I know who has almost 10% of the currency and he won't dump

That was also the reasoning in the meeting, last sunday. At a difficulty of < 10 there would to be much need for frequent checkpoints. And merging with the myriad-skein chain would help distribution for both coins. But it would also help the use of skeinbased chains.

Also there is no premine, Bolvan bringing that up is rather funny. [bolvan    56508    1,465,047 skc] ( https://www2.coinmine.pl/skc/index.php?page=statistics&action=blockfinder  ). At the time of this post there is 9,131,744 Skein mined. (sold some he )

<RedKendra> i'll start on the merge mining changes. we'll set a hard fork point for say 2 weeks after the release. 2 weeks should be enough for everyone to upgrade i reckon

[sheepman]

With current price of 30 (lets say 100) sat mining with diff 2000 would be worthless for miners. Additional benefit of mining not just myriad but myriad+skc would be 1 cent per day. Even doesn't worth the time spent on changing configs. If the price for some mystic reason rises enough then we expect dump of 1 year premine - up to 8 mln SKC.

• Price is irrelevant until SKC has utility
• Diff is high when you have a secure network, this is priority #1 for any altcoin
• "Additional benefit of mining not just myriad but myriad+skc" is not some arbitrary price on a given fiat currency, is just the network security
• This coin doesn't has a premine, dunno understand your reasoning on that respect. I know who has almost 10% of the currency and he won't dump

Just to add.. surely you can't have utility without having the coin worth anything? Its a bit chicken and egg...

[sheepman]

With current price of 30 (lets say 100) sat mining with diff 2000 would be worthless for miners. Additional benefit of mining not just myriad but myriad+skc would be 1 cent per day. Even doesn't worth the time spent on changing configs. If the price for some mystic reason rises enough then we expect dump of 1 year premine - up to 8 mln SKC.

• Price is irrelevant until SKC has utility
• Diff is high when you have a secure network, this is priority #1 for any altcoin
• "Additional benefit of mining not just myriad but myriad+skc" is not some arbitrary price on a given fiat currency, is just the network security
• This coin doesn't has a premine, dunno understand your reasoning on that respect. I know who has almost 10% of the currency and he won't dump

Just to add.. surely you can't have utility without having the coin worth anything? Its a bit chicken and egg...

Well, they are worth something, and at least as long as they stay on a trustworthy exchange they'll continue to be worth something. They're not going to go below one satoshi so long as nothing is broken and they are on a trustworthy exchange. Should I put in a buy order for 17 million @ 1 satoshi to prove that?

As for the chicken and egg thing, I think you've got it backwards. If I could pick up a few million SKC for 2 satoshi each, I'd be *more* likely to work on a project to improve its utility, not less.

Guess that depends on perspective... for the general masses it needs to have some value before they will bother spending any time on it. Theres plenty of coins that are worth more so why not focus your time on them?

[bolvan]

I treat 9 mln already mined coins in this situation as premine.
Someone have them and will dump if price rises.

[gielbier]

Geofaucets preview.
(if you want to see more, pm me  or visit #skeincoin once in a while)

I treat 9 mln already mined coins in this situation as premine.
Someone have them and will dump if price rises.

Why? Skc was always mineable publicly. And I for one won't sell my skc, because I need it as a security against eventual loss of coins.

[sheepman]

Guess that depends on perspective... for the general masses it needs to have some value before they will bother spending any time on it. Theres plenty of coins that are worth more so why not focus your time on them?

Because I don't own as high a percentage of them.

I also would dispute that many of them are "worth more". Skeincoin has a good name, an interesting algorithm, a great dev, a good time between blocks, a good total number of coins, a great logo...

There's a (small, but non-negligible) chance that skein (*) will one day be one of a small handful of POW algorithms popular enough for people to make ASICs, and if that happens there's a very good chance that Skeincoin will be the king of that algorithm. What other coins can say that? Some, but not that many, and as far I know none that can be bought up as cheaply as SKC. My initial "no" about merge-mining was because I was under the impression that merge-mining with MYR would mean Skeincoin would always have to play second fiddle to MYR, but after further research I realize not only is that not true, but it potentially can be used as an advantage.

The only real problem is that there's currently only one exchange. That's something that hopefully can be fixed, in time.

(*) Skein-sha, unfortunately. I'm not sure why the choice was made to add sha to the mix (maybe for a good reason), but that is perhaps a second problem, in that it presumably makes ASICs somewhat harder to make, and FPGAs less cost-effective, due to the need to implement two algorithms instead of one.

I agree with 90% of that, don't get me wrong I love Skeincoin I think its great with many pro's as you suggest.

We obviously sit on either side of the fence so lets attack this problem together instead of politely arguing our different views.... What can we do to get this coin really going? I'm looking for ideas and opinions people

[sheepman]

Geofaucets preview.
(if you want to see more, pm me  or visit #skeincoin once in a while)

Great work! Keep it up buddy 

[chiguireitor]

What can we do to get this coin really going? I'm looking for ideas and opinions people

These are small things, but an open-source android wallet (https://github.com/chiguireitor/skeincoin-wallet doesn't seem to work), an open-source iOS wallet, and an open-source web wallet in the style of blockchain.info would all be nice.

It'd also be nice if people contributed to the wiki at wiki.skeincoin.info. It's pretty slow right now but if there is interest in it I can move it to a better server.

I have some bigger ideas, but they're not fleshed out enough to share them just yet. Also, the wallet ideas are ideas, not something I'm volunteering to do myself. Contributing to the wiki is something I'm going to be working on, though I haven't touched it in months. Some company would certainly help spur me into action.

I'm the one that forked the Bitcoin wallet to create the Android wallet. I'm pretty busy atm and haven't been able to get my android development tools working correctly (need to clean install stuff).

[Red Kendra]

Happy first birthday Skeincoin!

Merge mining is now integrated into Skeincoin.

This is a required update. Merge mining will be enabled starting at block 331440 which should be mined around Friday 7 November. Please update before then.

Github updated and new QT wallet available:

Windows QT wallet
Version 0.8.99.14 - 1 November 2014
Allows merged mining
Update before 7 November
MD5 file hash = 2C5625DB6F1A845651CBAB0E8C804559
http://www.skeincoin.org/skeincoinwin089914.zip
https://mega.co.nz/#!stQDhBIa!v55n1WANk2WWK6v-aSnHIGRLpULvOM49uhBAIVzTgTc
https://www.dropbox.com/s/rhfzhjgdfdps7mw/skeincoinwin089914.zip?dl=0

RK

[gielbier]

Nice!
Happy skeinniversary !
 
(tipbot is updated)

[nzsquirrell]

Great work Red Kendra, happy to have helped you achieve this change

The P2Pool Geeks @ http://myriad.p2pool.geek.nz will have SKC merge mining via Myriadcoin P2Pool running from the moment you guys pass block 331440. You are all welcome to come and join us, I also hope you join in the Myriad community at http://www.reddit.com/r/myriadcoin. With both communities working together, both coins will be stronger.

[sheepman]

explorer.skeincoin.org updated too