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Author Topic: How to defend against asics or prove Metroid wrong  (Read 989 times)
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philipma1957
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March 31, 2018, 01:58:47 PM
Last edit: March 31, 2018, 03:32:24 PM by philipma1957
Merited by wheelz1200 (2), shibob (2), vapourminer (1), mindrust (1), Metroid (1)
 #1

I want to make Metroid wrong
he has  a thread
   
GPU mining will die in 2018!

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2786298.0

To all developers of the major money coins  here is my idea in a nut shell


Here is the deal  cpu/gpu developers can crush asics  with  a 4-6 month built in fork  system for their coin.

Other then LTC/scrypt and BTC/sha256 no algo has much hashpower

so an asic will crush that algo.

the defense  would be   4-6 month forks  and adding  a second or third algo

say
x16r  now
x20r   4-6 months later
x24r   4-6 months later
z28r   4-6 months later

I have contacted x16r dev on his thread

x16r now
x18r 4-6 months
x20r 4-6 months
x22r 4-6 months

maybe good enoguh












or
xmr1
xmr2
xmr3
xmr4

or
zec1
zec2
zec3
zec4

or
eth1
eth2
eth3
eth4


this  would defend  cpu/gpu coins  from the  attack  of asics

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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March 31, 2018, 02:26:32 PM
 #2

Let's support the idea guys or GPUs will really die and BITMAIN will dominate everything, centralization are coming

For RVN and X16r is easy to change the algo or improve, RVN born to fight against Asics

But for big coins it looks like devs are afraid to change anything

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March 31, 2018, 02:35:05 PM
 #3

Hi @philipma1957 ,


miners do secure blockchains,
it does not matter what device is used.

The value of a coin does not come out of "how" it is mined.

Use case and adoption gives value.


Cheesy PanneKopp

... please make an educated guess !
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March 31, 2018, 02:37:15 PM
 #4

say
x16r  now
x20r   4-6 months later
x24r   4-6 months later
z28r   4-6 months later

They are already talking about your idea.

Quote
Arachnid commented 34 minutes ago •

@pipermerriam You're suggesting we pick algorithms we know aren't difficult for ASICs, and instead rely on switching them regularly to deter ASICs being deployed?

I don't think that's a viable process, because algorithm design can't be automated, and doing it manually consumes a lot of resources and introduces risk every time you introduce a new algorithm.

I was critiquing @naure's proposal, too, which explicitly claimed to be ASIC-resistant.

https://github.com/ethereum/EIPs/issues/958

And for the record, I want to be wrong but in the end I'm never wrong. Greedy people make me right hehe

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March 31, 2018, 02:55:01 PM
 #5

Hi @philipma1957 ,


miners do secure blockchains,
it does not matter what device is used.

The value of a coin does not come out of "how" it is mined.

Use case and adoption gives value.


Cheesy PanneKopp

You are missing the point, he is not talking about value of a coin.  He is talking about keeping gpu mining alive, and yes miners secure the blockchain but not when asic mining is a mainly centralized venture.  Gpu miners allow for easy entry for people to mine crypto.




.




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TheYankeesWin!
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March 31, 2018, 02:59:24 PM
 #6

say
x16r  now
x20r   4-6 months later
x24r   4-6 months later
z28r   4-6 months later

They are already talking about your idea.

Quote
Arachnid commented 34 minutes ago •

@pipermerriam You're suggesting we pick algorithms we know aren't difficult for ASICs, and instead rely on switching them regularly to deter ASICs being deployed?

I don't think that's a viable process, because algorithm design can't be automated, and doing it manually consumes a lot of resources and introduces risk every time you introduce a new algorithm.

I was critiquing @naure's proposal, too, which explicitly claimed to be ASIC-resistant.

https://github.com/ethereum/EIPs/issues/958

And for the record, I want to be wrong but in the end I'm never wrong. Greedy people make me right hehe

Yes  but  greed  is also there for GPU builders and for intel and for mobo builders.

So if  they simply  push  for constant forks  asics go by by.
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March 31, 2018, 03:00:02 PM
 #7

It seems the f3 can do 1500 mhs, that is 50 x rx 580.

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philipma1957
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March 31, 2018, 03:02:11 PM
 #8

Hi @philipma1957 ,


miners do secure blockchains,
it does not matter what device is used.

The value of a coin does not come out of "how" it is mined.

Use case and adoption gives value.


Cheesy PanneKopp

You are missing the point, he is not talking about value of a coin.  He is talking about keeping gpu mining alive, and yes miners secure the blockchain but not when asic mining is a mainly centralized venture.  Gpu miners allow for easy entry for people to mine crypto.

Yes  and what  most people do not realize is every home in the world  should have  a good pc with a good card.

[That is my fuck you to Apple iPad and iPhone and no good pc option. which is why I ended up with  cryptocoins in the first place]



I still propose this and gpu mining  becomes a slightly more complex rebate for your machine/pc.

This makes adoption   worldwide
below is a 1750 usd pc if it earns 4 dollars a day

1 year later it earned 1460

pretty good rebate  and many  can go this route  we need this it is important

https://store.hp.com/us/en/cv/omen-gaming?jumpid=ma_dt_featured_na_2_171115#desktops



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I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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March 31, 2018, 03:03:26 PM
 #9


But for big coins it looks like devs are afraid to change anything

They have already considered on doing forks, XMR in a few weeks, ETH got a high votes for a fork to brick asics, X16r also can do forks

Hi @philipma1957 ,


miners do secure blockchains,
it does not matter what device is used.




It does matter as  Cryptos considered and supposedly a "decentralized" coin, imagine a large hashing power only owns by the big whales as they are the only one who can afford to buy the large portion of machines.

Quote
The value of a coin does not come out of "how" it is mined.


And the mining profitability suffered which leads to small miners also give up
philipma1957
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March 31, 2018, 03:19:18 PM
 #10


But for big coins it looks like devs are afraid to change anything

They have already considered on doing forks, XMR in a few weeks, ETH got a high votes for a fork to brick asics, X16r also can do forks

Hi @philipma1957 ,


miners do secure blockchains,
it does not matter what device is used.




It does matter as  Cryptos considered and supposedly a "decentralized" coin, imagine a large hashing power only owns by the big whales as they are the only one who can afford to buy the large portion of machines.

Quote
The value of a coin does not come out of "how" it is mined.


And the mining profitability suffered which leads to small miners also give up


See value  does come from how it is mined.  Think of gaming  I was a little too old to ever be a gamer.

 I predate pong and space invaders.
 I was a pinball player in the early 70's

But  if you game  a 1080ti system is affordable if you mine while you sleep.
Which means  world wide adoption  of gpu mining  at the grassroots level.

It must be preserved.  
I fuck around with Metroid  but he called the shot that asic's  were attacking gpu mining far earlier then I did.

It was a valuable thread he started .

The x16r thread has value.

and I want this thread to have value

I would love to see the x16r developer

say right now he will do

x20r in 4-6 months

with plans for

x24r in another 4-6 months after that

which  fully  will fuck  asics

and of course make  the raven coin worth dead solid money.



raven dev thread here

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2752467.0

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2752467.msg33607577#msg33607577

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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March 31, 2018, 03:32:35 PM
 #11

Quote
krtschmr commented 7 minutes ago

Antminer F3 confirmed. First video of existence: https://i.imgur.com/fh5Z5gW.gifv

Based on the date it's 31st March which is today. So then, everybody RIP

either ETH Devs do something very very quick or crypto(mining) ompletely gets recked by china.

https://github.com/ethereum/EIPs/issues/958#issuecomment-377700697

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L-1iG6mdJ8

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March 31, 2018, 03:37:12 PM
 #12

I support the idea of protecting coin algorithms from the use of asics. But how can we force developers to do that. For them, it does not matter who will be able to mining. But for decentralization mining and survivability of the coin is of great importance. How to explain this to the developers, I don't know.
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March 31, 2018, 03:48:39 PM
 #13

I support the idea of protecting coin algorithms from the use of asics. But how can we force developers to do that. For them, it does not matter who will be able to mining. But for decentralization mining and survivability of the coin is of great importance. How to explain this to the developers, I don't know.

If we don't get enough  developers  to sign on  for this idea  cpu and gpu mining does  die.

If that dies  we are fully dependent on Asic's  which means  centralized mining.

I don't  dislike  centralized mining.  My signature mentions  BTC as a highway  for trucks, bus's , cars, taxi's

I am certainly willing to have  'good' highways.

But with no one to travel on them they become worthless.

It maybe  that ETH  + BTC  + LTC  end up  as the centralized structure for cryptocoins fine that  works only if  the other coins  are

decentralized.

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
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March 31, 2018, 03:57:04 PM
 #14

I support the idea of protecting coin algorithms from the use of asics. But how can we force developers to do that. For them, it does not matter who will be able to mining. But for decentralization mining and survivability of the coin is of great importance. How to explain this to the developers, I don't know.

You cannot force anyone to do anything.

In fact, a great many developers are ASIC pro, not against, due to the high volume of hashrate that can be achieved to secure network through PoW.

My firm belief is that GPU mining will ALWAYS have a place, and that the largest component to this is the home user. However, for assurance that this will be the future, there needs to be stability in the GPU mining systems, and the current state of affairs in the GPU market is abhorrent. Almost NO decent GPU can be had, and the manufacturing giants are elevating the prices of GPU's much higher than they are actually worth. This is a side effect, and a negative one at that, of the market at play here. We know, we buy and supply the GPU's. Shortages are not the only problem, though price is a major one.

So ASIC's become much more attractive in that case, as they come close to the price of GPU's in the medium level ASIC market.

What does this mean on an overall level?

Simply that NO ONE can kill ASIC's, just like NO ONE can kill GPU's.

I believe there will be a balance of all mining hardware, and that this balance will be maintained WELL into the future of mining. The fact that the head of nVidia himself believes that mining will be a core aspect of the business proves that the GPU mining will be alive and well MUCH deeper into the future than what anyone can conceive.

As for the Algo change, that is not difficult at all. We know, we have designed a few ourselves which will appear shortly in our coins. Getting around an adaptive ASIC/FPGA miner is!

#crysx

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March 31, 2018, 04:07:51 PM
 #15

I support the idea of protecting coin algorithms from the use of asics. But how can we force developers to do that. For them, it does not matter who will be able to mining. But for decentralization mining and survivability of the coin is of great importance. How to explain this to the developers, I don't know.

You cannot force anyone to do anything.

In fact, a great many developers are ASIC pro, not against, due to the high volume of hashrate that can be achieved to secure network through PoW.

My firm belief is that GPU mining will ALWAYS have a place, and that the largest component to this is the home user. However, for assurance that this will be the future, there needs to be stability in the GPU mining systems, and the current state of affairs in the GPU market is abhorrent. Almost NO decent GPU can be had, and the manufacturing giants are elevating the prices of GPU's much higher than they are actually worth. This is a side effect, and a negative one at that, of the market at play here. We know, we buy and supply the GPU's. Shortages are not the only problem, though price is a major one.

So ASIC's become much more attractive in that case, as they come close to the price of GPU's in the medium level ASIC market.

What does this mean on an overall level?

Simply that NO ONE can kill ASIC's, just like NO ONE can kill GPU's.

I believe there will be a balance of all mining hardware, and that this balance will be maintained WELL into the future of mining. The fact that the head of nVidia himself believes that mining will be a core aspect of the business proves that the GPU mining will be alive and well MUCH deeper into the future than what anyone can conceive.

As for the Algo change, that is not difficult at all. We know, we have designed a few ourselves which will appear shortly in our coins. Getting around an adaptive ASIC/FPGA miner is!

#crysx

Dont have the misconception that high hashpower = secure.  I for one would rather a lower hashrate but many more people on the network.  And hashrate is reletive to the machines available to mine. 




.




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March 31, 2018, 04:10:17 PM
 #16

I support the idea of protecting coin algorithms from the use of asics. But how can we force developers to do that. For them, it does not matter who will be able to mining. But for decentralization mining and survivability of the coin is of great importance. How to explain this to the developers, I don't know.

You cannot force anyone to do anything.

In fact, a great many developers are ASIC pro, not against, due to the high volume of hashrate that can be achieved to secure network through PoW.

My firm belief is that GPU mining will ALWAYS have a place, and that the largest component to this is the home user. However, for assurance that this will be the future, there needs to be stability in the GPU mining systems, and the current state of affairs in the GPU market is abhorrent. Almost NO decent GPU can be had, and the manufacturing giants are elevating the prices of GPU's much higher than they are actually worth. This is a side effect, and a negative one at that, of the market at play here. We know, we buy and supply the GPU's. Shortages are not the only problem, though price is a major one.

So ASIC's become much more attractive in that case, as they come close to the price of GPU's in the medium level ASIC market.

What does this mean on an overall level?

Simply that NO ONE can kill ASIC's, just like NO ONE can kill GPU's.

I believe there will be a balance of all mining hardware, and that this balance will be maintained WELL into the future of mining. The fact that the head of nVidia himself believes that mining will be a core aspect of the business proves that the GPU mining will be alive and well MUCH deeper into the future than what anyone can conceive.

As for the Algo change, that is not difficult at all. We know, we have designed a few ourselves which will appear shortly in our coins. Getting around an adaptive ASIC/FPGA miner is!

#crysx

Dont have the misconception that high hashpower = secure.  I for one would rather a lower hashrate but many more people on the network.  And hashrate is reletive to the machines available to mine.  

Wrong ...

That is where 51% attacks come from. Security is a hashrate phenomenon, whether you or I like it or not.

If the network is a GPU hashed PoW and has 25MH, while we come along with our 'theFARM' and thrash the network at 250MH, then the network has a massive issue.

MH or GH, the figures stand.

#crysx

Exchange - https://www.zapple.com/exchange/ . CWI-Thread - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1563601 . EMail - crysx@gnxs.com . CWI-WebSite - https://chainworksindustries.com/ . CWI-Mine - http://chrysolite.chainworksindustries.com/ . CWI-Pyroxene (theMine) - http://pyroxene.chainworksindustries.com/ . GRN - Gfz2cXMkhMZYWSFvLEMnM8bXk7X5Mtq2J2
philipma1957
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March 31, 2018, 04:17:00 PM
 #17

I support the idea of protecting coin algorithms from the use of asics. But how can we force developers to do that. For them, it does not matter who will be able to mining. But for decentralization mining and survivability of the coin is of great importance. How to explain this to the developers, I don't know.

You cannot force anyone to do anything.

In fact, a great many developers are ASIC pro, not against, due to the high volume of hashrate that can be achieved to secure network through PoW.

My firm belief is that GPU mining will ALWAYS have a place, and that the largest component to this is the home user. However, for assurance that this will be the future, there needs to be stability in the GPU mining systems, and the current state of affairs in the GPU market is abhorrent. Almost NO decent GPU can be had, and the manufacturing giants are elevating the prices of GPU's much higher than they are actually worth. This is a side effect, and a negative one at that, of the market at play here. We know, we buy and supply the GPU's. Shortages are not the only problem, though price is a major one.

So ASIC's become much more attractive in that case, as they come close to the price of GPU's in the medium level ASIC market.

What does this mean on an overall level?

Simply that NO ONE can kill ASIC's, just like NO ONE can kill GPU's.

I believe there will be a balance of all mining hardware, and that this balance will be maintained WELL into the future of mining. The fact that the head of nVidia himself believes that mining will be a core aspect of the business proves that the GPU mining will be alive and well MUCH deeper into the future than what anyone can conceive.

As for the Algo change, that is not difficult at all. We know, we have designed a few ourselves which will appear shortly in our coins. Getting around an adaptive ASIC/FPGA miner is!

#crysx

Dont have the misconception that high hashpower = secure.  I for one would rather a lower hashrate but many more people on the network.  And hashrate is reletive to the machines available to mine.  

Wrong ...

That is where 51% attacks come from. Security is a hashrate phenomenon, whether you or I like it or not.

If the network is a GPU hashed PoW and has 25MH, while we come along with our 'theFARM' and thrash the network at 250MH, then the network has a massive issue.

MH or GH, the figures stand.

#crysx

wrong but tricky to make this wrong

Phil16r

already has 
Phil18r
Phil20r
Phil22r
Phil24r

developed

and ready to fork  could do a fork every week

this means no asics can ever het a foothold

I see BTC as the super highway and alt coins as taxis and trucks needed to move transactions.
mindrust
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March 31, 2018, 04:24:14 PM
Merited by Metroid (1)
 #18

We definitely need complete ASIC immune algos to keep Bitmain out.

Bitmain is making ASICs for the coins which are designed to be ASIC resistant. These coins owes most of their value for being decentralized/ASIC immune/Home mining friendliness but Bitmain has no respect to any of us.

Think about it, Ethereum&Monero clearly advertised their coins for being ASIC resistant. They advertised this as a feature. Now that feature is cracked by Bitmain. That means Bitmain is clearly attacking those coins and they will attack anything they are able to.

What we need is to fuck them right up where it hurts.

Vote with your hashpower, do not buy ASICs.




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March 31, 2018, 04:27:30 PM
 #19

I support the idea of protecting coin algorithms from the use of asics. But how can we force developers to do that. For them, it does not matter who will be able to mining. But for decentralization mining and survivability of the coin is of great importance. How to explain this to the developers, I don't know.

You cannot force anyone to do anything.

In fact, a great many developers are ASIC pro, not against, due to the high volume of hashrate that can be achieved to secure network through PoW.

My firm belief is that GPU mining will ALWAYS have a place, and that the largest component to this is the home user. However, for assurance that this will be the future, there needs to be stability in the GPU mining systems, and the current state of affairs in the GPU market is abhorrent. Almost NO decent GPU can be had, and the manufacturing giants are elevating the prices of GPU's much higher than they are actually worth. This is a side effect, and a negative one at that, of the market at play here. We know, we buy and supply the GPU's. Shortages are not the only problem, though price is a major one.

So ASIC's become much more attractive in that case, as they come close to the price of GPU's in the medium level ASIC market.

What does this mean on an overall level?

Simply that NO ONE can kill ASIC's, just like NO ONE can kill GPU's.

I believe there will be a balance of all mining hardware, and that this balance will be maintained WELL into the future of mining. The fact that the head of nVidia himself believes that mining will be a core aspect of the business proves that the GPU mining will be alive and well MUCH deeper into the future than what anyone can conceive.

As for the Algo change, that is not difficult at all. We know, we have designed a few ourselves which will appear shortly in our coins. Getting around an adaptive ASIC/FPGA miner is!

#crysx

Dont have the misconception that high hashpower = secure.  I for one would rather a lower hashrate but many more people on the network.  And hashrate is reletive to the machines available to mine.  

Wrong ...

That is where 51% attacks come from. Security is a hashrate phenomenon, whether you or I like it or not.

If the network is a GPU hashed PoW and has 25MH, while we come along with our 'theFARM' and thrash the network at 250MH, then the network has a massive issue.

MH or GH, the figures stand.

#crysx

wrong but tricky to make this wrong

Phil16r

already has  
Phil18r
Phil20r
Phil22r
Phil24r

developed

and ready to fork  could do a fork every week

this means no asics can ever het a foothold

Well ...

I did mention that an Algo change would be easy, like you have just mentioned.

I also stated that an Adaptive ASIC/FPGA would be very difficult to get around. Key word here - Adaptive.

These hybrid systems are on the drawing boards, and I assure you will make life very difficult in this arena due to their upgradable flexibility in Algo change. If they are perfected, there will be almost no Algo they couldn't hash, unless they are built with limitations on RAM and capacity of processing. Otherwise, these Hybrids WILL be able to duplicate the vast majority of Algos.

It wasn't long ago that people said 'ASIC proof' then 'ASIC resistant'. Don't think this is science fiction when I mention that these Adaptable Hybrid Miners (I call them AHM - I am creative that way Wink ) are being developed right now. The moment the PHI algo is updated, a software update for the AHM will be available also shortly after.

I am off to bed now for a long drive for Family, so I will not be able to answer any more posts for the time being until I get back, but mark my words that this will happen sooner than you think.

Happy Easter All, and Nite Nite!

#crysx

Exchange - https://www.zapple.com/exchange/ . CWI-Thread - https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1563601 . EMail - crysx@gnxs.com . CWI-WebSite - https://chainworksindustries.com/ . CWI-Mine - http://chrysolite.chainworksindustries.com/ . CWI-Pyroxene (theMine) - http://pyroxene.chainworksindustries.com/ . GRN - Gfz2cXMkhMZYWSFvLEMnM8bXk7X5Mtq2J2
PanneKopp
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March 31, 2018, 04:31:40 PM
 #20

Hi @philipma1957 ,


miners do secure blockchains,
it does not matter what device is used.

The value of a coin does not come out of "how" it is mined.

Use case and adoption gives value.


Cheesy PanneKopp

You are missing the point, he is not talking about value of a coin.  He is talking about keeping gpu mining alive, and yes miners secure the blockchain but not when asic mining is a mainly centralized venture.  Gpu miners allow for easy entry for people to mine crypto.

Yes  and what  most people do not realize is every home in the world  should have  a good pc with a good card.

I still propose this and gpu mining  becomes a slightly more complex rebate for your machine/pc.

This makes adoption   worldwide
below is a 1750 usd pc if it earns 4 dollars a day

1 year later it earned 1460

pretty good rebate  and many  can go this route  we need this it is important


Dear Phil,


if you propagate the idea,
that mining has to come back to the roots,
the way that users mine on their node the coins that they use,
then I totally agree with you !


If it is about mining as a business, the ones with lowest energy costs will stand longest (not here).


 Roll Eyes PanneKopp

P.S. miners do not deliver adoption

... please make an educated guess !
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