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Author Topic: Somalia  (Read 2110 times)
NghtRppr
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July 28, 2011, 08:55:21 PM
 #1

With government:



Without government:



Whatever shall we do without the magical blessings of government?!

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July 28, 2011, 09:05:20 PM
 #2

Somalia is a perfect example of a state with no government at all.
NghtRppr
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July 28, 2011, 11:27:30 PM
 #3

Somalia is a perfect example of a state with no government at all.

It's fallacious reasoning to argue that all stateless regions would end up like Somalia.
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July 28, 2011, 11:51:14 PM
 #4

So anarchism is the same of government?
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July 29, 2011, 12:01:27 AM
 #5

So anarchism is the same of government?
Do us all a favor:
Click this link: https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism
Scroll down, and on the left side, find your native language, and click on that.
Read.
Then come back and debate the flaws.

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The Script
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July 29, 2011, 06:56:34 AM
 #6

Actually, Bitcoin2cash, your pictures aren't even that accurate.  The second one should show the telephone wires repaired and the house rebuilt.  Somalia has improved a lot under anarchy, even though it remains poor on most levels of measurement.  What these strawmanning trolls need to realize (yes, Josell, that's you) is that it takes time for countries to grow economically after many years of being raped by a dictatorship.  Prosperity doesn't happen overnight.  Furthermore the prosperity of Somalia is being hindered (at least in the South) by the government trying to hang onto power.  The civil war that is happening in and around Mogadishu is happening because people don't want a government.

For you "tl;dr" people scroll down to page 12 of the link to see the stats comparison.
myrkul
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July 29, 2011, 07:25:28 AM
 #7

Actually, Bitcoin2cash, your pictures aren't even that accurate.  The second one should show the telephone wires repaired and the house rebuilt.  Somalia has improved a lot under anarchy, even though it remains poor on most levels of measurement. 

Most telling statistic:

Quote
Life expectancy (years) 46.0 => 48.47

Not bad for a 'Warzone'.

Edit: reading on, all I can say is... Holy shit! If this keeps up, in a decade or two all that "move to Somalia, then, you kooky Anarchist" stuff might actually sound tempting. They already have "the cheapest, clearest cell phone calls on the continent (The Economist 2005)" (Page 20).

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rainingbitcoins
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July 29, 2011, 07:43:34 AM
 #8

Not bad for a 'Warzone'.

No, that's pretty bad for any kind of zone. It's one of the lowest life expectancies in the world and most of the countries below it have rates of AIDS infection that go up to nearly 40% of the population. Well, them and Afghanistan. But even Iraq beats Somalia out by a solid 11 years.

Another fun fact about life expectancies: the U.S. and Cuba are exactly the same in that category - 78.3 years, tied for #36 in the world.
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July 29, 2011, 07:48:34 AM
 #9

Not bad for a 'Warzone'.

No, that's pretty bad for any kind of zone. It's one of the lowest life expectancies in the world and most of the countries below it have rates of AIDS infection that go up to nearly 40% of the population. Well, them and Afghanistan. But even Iraq beats Somalia out by a solid 11 years.

Another fun fact about life expectancies: the U.S. and Cuba are exactly the same in that category - 78.3 years, tied for #36 in the world.

I meant that the life expectancy went up by 2.47 years during a time of governmental collapse. It's casual to the most obvious of observers that the place is still comparatively a shithole, but it's a better shithole than it started.

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July 29, 2011, 09:59:25 AM
 #10

Somalia has improved on several economic indicators but suffered on none under lawlessness. It seems many of the major problems with Somalia are to do with religious extremists and outside forces.

However many Somalis themselves are supportive of having a central government. You can read accounts of people talking about lack of safety .etc So I don't know. Smiley
Anonymous
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July 29, 2011, 12:31:45 PM
 #11

Actually, Bitcoin2cash, your pictures aren't even that accurate.  The second one should show the telephone wires repaired and the house rebuilt.  Somalia has improved a lot under anarchy, even though it remains poor on most levels of measurement.  What these strawmanning trolls need to realize (yes, Josell, that's you) is that it takes time for countries to grow economically after many years of being raped by a dictatorship.  Prosperity doesn't happen overnight.  Furthermore the prosperity of Somalia is being hindered (at least in the South) by the government trying to hang onto power.  The civil war that is happening in and around Mogadishu is happening because people don't want a government.

For you "tl;dr" people scroll down to page 12 of the link to see the stats comparison.

Have you ever met a Somalian? Have you ever read the news from Somalia? It's a raging wars be with roaming warlords killing indiscriminately, like most states that end up anarchic.
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July 29, 2011, 03:32:19 PM
 #12

Now we just need some gutsy, heavily armed libertarians to move over there and establish some businesses to get things going.

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July 29, 2011, 04:07:36 PM
 #13

Now we just need some gutsy, heavily armed libertarians to move over there and establish some businesses to get things going.
+1

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July 29, 2011, 06:33:10 PM
 #14

No, that's pretty bad for any kind of zone. It's one of the lowest life expectancies in the world and most of the countries below it have rates of AIDS infection that go up to nearly 40% of the population. Well, them and Afghanistan. But even Iraq beats Somalia out by a solid 11 years.

And yet Somalia, despite being an open borders African country has a 0.2% adult AIDS prevelance.

I'm going to cross post my wall of text from the other thread:

Somalia is such a horribly flawed argument that I don't even know where to begin. First of all, I guess, the best idea would probably be some context.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that you can't compare a East African nation which has been at constant civil war with would-be governments for the past two decades with a thriving developed state, so let's start by drawing our comparison between Somalia now and Somalia in 1991 when it had a state.

What's changed? Well according to this article, much has changed. This table is sourced with data from the BBC article linked:

Index19912011
Life Expectancy46 years50 years
Death Rate1916
GDP per capita$210$600
Infant Mortality116/1000109/1000
Access to Safe Water35%29%
Adult Literacy24%38%

Aside from the drop in access to safe water which is clearly a bad thing, I would say that Somalia has actually improved in its stateless condition. The average citizen is three times wealthier than he was in 1991, even accounting for inflation, he is twice as wealthy. He will live four years longer than he would have in 1991, he is 50% more likely to be able to read and write than he was in 1991. These are not signs of a country on the decline.

Here are some other choice quotes about Somalia from the article:

1. "Common sense dictates that security and stability are the necessary preconditions to economic development.

Since 26 January 1991, most of Somalia has had neither, yet the economy has not only been resilient, some sectors have shown remarkable growth."


2. "now someone can make a mobile call from anywhere in the country.

There are nine networks to choose from and they offer services from texting to mobile internet access."


Peter Little, in his 2003 book 'Somalia', notes that "there are still fees to be paid to greedy faction leaders and militia at ports and roadblocks, but levels of taxation and trade restrictions are considerably below what they were pre-1991".

Amoud University, set up in 1997, now employs 45 teachers, has 1,000 students and a library of over 100,000 books. It is respected as one of the best Universities in the Horn of Africa.

This table is produced from data from the Independent Institute's paper, comparing Somalia amongst 42 sub-Saharan countries. Statistic is a rank so higher is better (bold indicates improvement, or top 50% on a new measure):

Index20051990
Life Expectancy1837
Death Rate (per 1000)1737
Child Malnutrition20aN/A
Telephone Main Lines (per 1000)829b
Mobile Cellphones (per 1000)16N/A
Internet Users (per 1000)11N/A
Households with TV27cN/A
DPT Immunisation %4138d
Measles Immunisation %4238d
Access to Sanitation24N/A
Access to Clean Water41N/A
Tuberculosis Cases (per 1000)3140

a. Ranking out of 36
b. Ranking out of 41
c. Ranking out of 40
d. Ranking out of 39


Somalia does have private defense firms, you call them out as an extortion racket because they charge for their services? Last I checked, the government don't work for free. They have a working currency and a (primitive) legal system. The biggest issue with Somalia is inherent mistrust of the outside, their laws only extend to Somali citizens, so their chances of globalising are a flat zero. This is not consistent with libertarianism at all.

Having said that, there must be something the Somalians like about not having a state, or they wouldn't have successfully opposed every single one that tried to set itself up on their land in the past twenty years.

When you stop trying to compare imperfect anarchism with a perfect state, your arguments might make sense and have coherence. All forms of sociopolitical structure are imperfect, compare relevant shining beacons of the state like Kenya, Ethiopia, Rwanda and DR Congo with Somalia. Compare pre-1991 Somalia with Somalia.

I would recommend that people actually take the time to understand the situation there before jumping for joy when they find an 'anarcho-capitalist' state which happens to be performing in a less-than-stellar manner.

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myrkul
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July 29, 2011, 07:14:42 PM
 #15

Have you ever met a Somalian? Have you ever read the news from Somalia? It's a raging wars be with roaming warlords killing indiscriminately, like most states that end up anarchic.

Translation: "I did not read the paper you linked, nor did I even look at the discussion following it. I knee-jerk posted that Somalia is a shithole as soon as I saw you defending it"

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GideonGono
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July 29, 2011, 07:30:48 PM
 #16

Have you ever met a Somalian? Have you ever read the news from Somalia? It's a raging wars be with roaming warlords killing indiscriminately, like most states that end up anarchic.

I know plenty. I lived in Kenya for 2 1/2 years where there are lots of Somali immigrants. Even in Zimbabwe there is a sizable Somali immigrant population. So I know what I'm talking about. Most of them agree that things are better with no govt.  Those warlords are nothing but US proxies. As genjix said, most of their problems are because outside govts won't leave them the hell alone. Even extremism is a function of outside interference because the jihadists give them a chance to expel foreign interlopers, so they side with the CIC & Al Shahab.

FYI the demonym for Somalia is Somali not "Somalian," it's like calling people from Israel, "Israelians".

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July 29, 2011, 07:53:06 PM
 #17

Have you ever met a Somalian? Have you ever read the news from Somalia? It's a raging wars be with roaming warlords killing indiscriminately, like most states that end up anarchic.

Yeah, those anarchic shitholes are terrible. Nothing compared to statist utopias like Rwanda, Ethiopia, North Korea and Congo, where nobody ever dies for no good reason.

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July 29, 2011, 07:58:08 PM
 #18

Even extremism is a function of outside interference because the jihadists give them a chance to expel foreign interlopers, so they side with the CIC & Al Shahab.

The Islam extremism is the one thing that really worries me about Somalia, and may be the thing that keeps it from turning into Cayman Islands, and instead turns it into another Taliban-overrun Afghanistan Sad

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July 29, 2011, 08:00:44 PM
 #19

Now we just need some gutsy, heavily armed libertarians to move over there and establish some businesses to get things going.
+1
+1 more.

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July 29, 2011, 08:09:34 PM
 #20

Holy strawman argument bat man!
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