WA state is getting tougher on cryptomining, shuts down some miners

[ggbtctalk000]

https://www.coindesk.com/washington-state-county-shuts-unauthorized-crypto-miners/

They shut down concerning the fire safety. It is always concern for me as I am looking in Arizona for possible purchase of site due to abundance of sunlight.

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[Max Likelihood]

Yeah, nothing to stoke up the neophobic populace like the accusing people doing something new of being dangers to the community. All those data centers, it's ok for them to use electricity, because "cloud computing" sounds good. Hopefully efficiency will improve, but until then maybe we should just rebrand. 

[ggbtctalk000]

Yeah, nothing to stoke up the neophobic populace like the accusing people doing something new of being dangers to the community. All those data centers, it's ok for them to use electricity, because "cloud computing" sounds good. Hopefully efficiency will improve, but until then maybe we should just rebrand. 

yes i dont like being too much regulated but on the other hand fire safety is definitely a concern, always back of my mind. I am also considering to purchase a parcel of land and get some container or metal barn to do the mining. As such I am trying to find less fire-prone terrain and as away as possibel from  civilization and densely populated area. Definitely not in or near multi-family residential area.

[Rasanders22]

https://www.coindesk.com/washington-state-county-shuts-unauthorized-crypto-miners/

They shut down concerning the fire safety. It is always concern for me as I am looking in Arizona for possible purchase of site due to abundance of sunlight.

Remember heat is bad for computers. Last summer I saw it hit 124 degrees one day. It was a bad day to not put up the reflector in my windshield and to park facing the sun

[jstefanop]

Yeah, nothing to stoke up the neophobic populace like the accusing people doing something new of being dangers to the community. All those data centers, it's ok for them to use electricity, because "cloud computing" sounds good. Hopefully efficiency will improve, but until then maybe we should just rebrand. 

You read the article? Sounds to me like they are shutting down a bunch of residential customers that think its fine to load an apartment or makeshift shed full of miners and think they can tap 200kw from a residential grid. I warned of this before, but no one took it seriously. A couple rigs in your house is fine an no one will bother you, but if your going to try and stick a couple dozen in a residential area and think no one will notice think again.

[ggbtctalk000]

Yeah, nothing to stoke up the neophobic populace like the accusing people doing something new of being dangers to the community. All those data centers, it's ok for them to use electricity, because "cloud computing" sounds good. Hopefully efficiency will improve, but until then maybe we should just rebrand.  

You read the article? Sounds to me like they are shutting down a bunch of residential customers that think its fine to load an apartment or makeshift shed full of miners and think they can tap 200kw from a residential grid. I warned of this before, but no one took it seriously. A couple rigs in your house is fine an no one will bother you, but if your going to try and stick a couple dozen in a residential area and think no one will notice think again.

I agree, fire risk should be taken seriously and one should tap the power way below its maximum rated, i learnt thrlere is something called continuois duty cycle rated about 70% below the max rated output for around the clock operation, not sure what other consoderation should be taken to make it safe, i am also keen on getting to know the ordinance in regards to what precautions to take even though ot does not apply to my area.

[Metroid]

Mining should never be done in apartments. People doing it are looking a way to be burned alive and want to take their neighbors with them.

[NateDoggETH]

Mining should never be done in apartments. People doing it are looking a way to be burned alive and want to take their neighbors with them.

I can agree with this.

Putting people who have no idea what others are doing in danger should be grounds to get kicked out of the apartments.

I am sure everyone here has been or lived in a crappy apartment before. Think about your neighbors maxing out every breaker with extension cords because they don't understand how electrical works.

But in my home, I should be able to use 100% of the electricity the way I want to. If I want to cool or heat the neighborhood, as long as I pay the bill and I am not stealing electricity, I don't think people should be messed with.

[Vann]

Yeah, nothing to stoke up the neophobic populace like the accusing people doing something new of being dangers to the community. All those data centers, it's ok for them to use electricity, because "cloud computing" sounds good. Hopefully efficiency will improve, but until then maybe we should just rebrand.  

You read the article? Sounds to me like they are shutting down a bunch of residential customers that think its fine to load an apartment or makeshift shed full of miners and think they can tap 200kw from a residential grid. I warned of this before, but no one took it seriously. A couple rigs in your house is fine an no one will bother you, but if your going to try and stick a couple dozen in a residential area and think no one will notice think again.

Actually if you follow the link provided in the article, it's in reference to a new city ordinance limiting bitcoin mining firms, which means it's a larger scale operation they are talking about shutting down. Not somebody with a couple of rigs in their house or apartment. LOL

https://www.coindesk.com/washington-states-chelan-county-moves-limit-new-bitcoin-mining-firms/

[ggbtctalk000]

Well fire does not give a sh## about whether it is large scale or residential, it just know how to spread and cause destruction. u got ta think about common sense.

[NateDoggETH]

Yeah, nothing to stoke up the neophobic populace like the accusing people doing something new of being dangers to the community. All those data centers, it's ok for them to use electricity, because "cloud computing" sounds good. Hopefully efficiency will improve, but until then maybe we should just rebrand.  

You read the article? Sounds to me like they are shutting down a bunch of residential customers that think its fine to load an apartment or makeshift shed full of miners and think they can tap 200kw from a residential grid. I warned of this before, but no one took it seriously. A couple rigs in your house is fine an no one will bother you, but if your going to try and stick a couple dozen in a residential area and think no one will notice think again.

Actually if you follow the link provided in the article, it's in reference to a new city ordinance limiting bitcoin mining firms, which means it's a larger scale operation they are talking about shutting down. Not somebody with a couple of rigs in their house or apartment. LOL

https://www.coindesk.com/washington-states-chelan-county-moves-limit-new-bitcoin-mining-firms/

I didn't read this article, Ill be honest.

But I have seen this being talked about for a few weeks now across the USA in different cities.

[Rasanders22]

Mining should never be done in apartments. People doing it are looking a way to be burned alive and want to take their neighbors with them.

Thats one way to keep your neighbors from stomping around at 2am when you need to wake up at 5am.

[TheBottomTurtle]

What the article fails to mention is that Chelan County PUD actively tries to block cryptomining facilities (be it small scale, in-home or large scale industrial.)  Their regulations for new service are convoluted, excessively expensive and clearly designed to discourage new data-center style business.  Even when you attempt to meet their ridiculous requirements they create new red tape out of thin air and attempt to block you anyway.  I ended up setting up shop in Douglas County, the next county over.

After a few discussions with local business owners (and now a bit of experience myself) the consensus is that the governing bodies in Chelan County are essentially a bunch of retired farmers.  They're happy with the area the way it is and it's no coincidence that their actions make it nearly impossible for small or medium scale tech businesses to move into the area.  Evidently a while back the state wanted to build a university in Chelan (a proposition that would have brought in a huge influx of capital and residents) and the city council blocked the university for the very same reason.

Full disclosure:  Douglas County now has a similar moratorium on new electrical service in the area but at least they're upfront and honest about it.  Also, while I was getting setup they were pleasant to do business with and welcoming.

-TBT

[Vann]

Yeah, nothing to stoke up the neophobic populace like the accusing people doing something new of being dangers to the community. All those data centers, it's ok for them to use electricity, because "cloud computing" sounds good. Hopefully efficiency will improve, but until then maybe we should just rebrand.  

You read the article? Sounds to me like they are shutting down a bunch of residential customers that think its fine to load an apartment or makeshift shed full of miners and think they can tap 200kw from a residential grid. I warned of this before, but no one took it seriously. A couple rigs in your house is fine an no one will bother you, but if your going to try and stick a couple dozen in a residential area and think no one will notice think again.

Actually if you follow the link provided in the article, it's in reference to a new city ordinance limiting bitcoin mining firms, which means it's a larger scale operation they are talking about shutting down. Not somebody with a couple of rigs in their house or apartment. LOL

https://www.coindesk.com/washington-states-chelan-county-moves-limit-new-bitcoin-mining-firms/

I didn't read this article, Ill be honest.

But I have seen this being talked about for a few weeks now across the USA in different cities.

That's right and it's mostly in cities where LARGE scale operations have setup, due to cheap electrical rates. Putting a strain on their electrical grid, some of which is subsidized by the city and it's causing the rates to rise for everyone. Plattsburgh, NY is another one.

http://www.wcax.com/content/news/Plattsburgh-considers-ban-on-bitcoin-mining-475877703.html

[QuintLeo]

A bit more SPECIFIC information from the PUD itself that instigated these shutdowns:

https://www.chelanpud.org/about-us/newsroom/news/2018/04/03/pud-board-acts-to-halt-unauthorized-bitcoin-mining

Apparently 2 of the folks they targeted were exceeding SAFE loads on the wiring for the locations involved, NOT just "mining without authorization", and the third failed to give required notice when they exceeded their allotment.


This is NOT an "action by the state" at all, it is one specific "local" PUD with a record of dislike for cryptocoin mining.

[NateDoggETH]

Yeah, nothing to stoke up the neophobic populace like the accusing people doing something new of being dangers to the community. All those data centers, it's ok for them to use electricity, because "cloud computing" sounds good. Hopefully efficiency will improve, but until then maybe we should just rebrand.  

You read the article? Sounds to me like they are shutting down a bunch of residential customers that think its fine to load an apartment or makeshift shed full of miners and think they can tap 200kw from a residential grid. I warned of this before, but no one took it seriously. A couple rigs in your house is fine an no one will bother you, but if your going to try and stick a couple dozen in a residential area and think no one will notice think again.

Actually if you follow the link provided in the article, it's in reference to a new city ordinance limiting bitcoin mining firms, which means it's a larger scale operation they are talking about shutting down. Not somebody with a couple of rigs in their house or apartment. LOL

https://www.coindesk.com/washington-states-chelan-county-moves-limit-new-bitcoin-mining-firms/

I didn't read this article, Ill be honest.

But I have seen this being talked about for a few weeks now across the USA in different cities.

That's right and it's mostly in cities where LARGE scale operations have setup, due to cheap electrical rates. Putting a strain on their electrical grid, some of which is subsidized by the city and it's causing the rates to rise for everyone. Plattsburgh, NY is another one.

http://www.wcax.com/content/news/Plattsburgh-considers-ban-on-bitcoin-mining-475877703.html

That is the one that I read about.

Thanks for reposting it for others to see Vann.

[Max Likelihood]

Yes, I agree that fire safety is obviously a concern. It looks bad for all of us when people run unsafe set ups. And of course fire hazard farms should be shut down.

My main concern, not well articulated on reflection, is that it also provides an easy meme for fearful local governments to brand the entire enterprise as dangerous. People cannot distinguish the good and the bad of any group very well. You will now hear critics saying that all mining, however carefully engineered, set up, and run, is not only destroying the planet with energy waste but also about to burn the neighborhood down.

The broader issue is the selective use of negative instances to delegitimate mining in the eyes of the public, by people who have no concept of its purpose or crypto in general. Probably they wouldn't push it to putting the little guy's mining farm on the level of a meth lab, but it will probably start to be looked at with the vague disfavor of growing pot in your basement. We'll see how it unwinds this year at the state and local level.

Too late to rebrand "mining" to "network security" or "transaction validation". That would go into people's "good" mental category.

[TheBottomTurtle]

Too late to rebrand "mining" to "network security" or "transaction validation". That would go into people's "good" mental category.

You know, I actually REALLY like this.  In the future when I talk to the uninformed about this I'm just going to start telling them I validate transactions on the Ethereum network.  It's far more descriptive, carries a positive connotation and it sounds way cooler.

-TBT

[CryptoWatcher420]

geeze I live in Washington state, this is some sad news to hear all because of people being super unsafe with electrical loads on the wires to the point its a serious fire hazard, a jerry rigged setup is just sooooooo danm unsafe its just stupid but theres always going to be people like that.

that said its stuff like this that ruins it for all of us that do our do diligence and set stuff up correctly taking into consideration as much as we can

[TheBottomTurtle]

this is some sad news to hear all because of people being super unsafe with electrical loads on the wires to the point its a serious fire hazard

The point I was trying to make is that's not the case.  It's just Chelan PUD trying to keep the county from modernizing.  You're not hearing about fires, people dying, etc...  You're hearing misleading figures and outright lies designed to further their agenda.

Consider this quote from https://www.chelanpud.org/about-us/newsroom/news/2018/04/03/pud-board-acts-to-halt-unauthorized-bitcoin-mining  Take note that the announcement is actually coming from Chelan PUD.  It's not them being misquoted or taking things out of context.  John Stoll, Customer Utilities managing director, when discussing the recent shutdown of a "scoundrel's" (their word, not mine) mining operation.

They shutdown the mining operation because the power usage increased "to 11,000-plus kwH, far above what residential wiring is designed to carry."  Now at first glance that may sound like a lot but, as most of the people reading this forum already know, you need to break down the numbers to see what you're actually dealing with.  So, 11,000 kwH aggregated from a month of 24/7 mining.  11,000 kwH divided by 24*30=720 hours in a month.  That means 15.3kw per hour.  Divided by 240v = 63.75 amps.

63.75A??  That's what Chelan PUD considers "far above what residential wiring is designed to carry?"  What a joke!  Nearly all modern homes have at least 200A service and even the most ancient breaker I've ever seen is designed for 100A.  If it was the actual wiring from the breaker to the receptacles they're talking about that's just shitty wiring that's not up to code.  It has NOTHING to do with mining.  Anything you plug into an outlet with faulty wiring is going to cause a fire.

From a practical standpoint, I did some math about how much power was being pulled at my house while Easter dinner was being cooked.  Between my oven, range top, hot water heater, heat in the living room, etc...I was pulling WAY more power than that.  I pulled it for hours.  If you want to talk about fire hazard add to the raw power the fact that my oven was 350 degrees, I had four red-hot heating elements packed into a room with copious amounts of alcohol, all being piloted by a person who was far too intoxicated to legally drive.  Now THAT is a fire hazard but you don't see the PUD kicking down doors and pulling the plug on Nanna's Easter dinner.  The article even points out that when looking at the mining operation from the outside "they could see open windows and a balcony door open to the chilly spring air likely keeping the cryptocurrency mining equipment cool."  Far better than the single window open in my kitchen.

It has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with the PUD attempting to justify their stance.  Using the "Do it for the children!" argument is absolutely ridiculous.

-TBT

[NateDoggETH]

Too late to rebrand "mining" to "network security" or "transaction validation". That would go into people's "good" mental category.

You know, I actually REALLY like this.  In the future when I talk to the uninformed about this I'm just going to start telling them I validate transactions on the Ethereum network.  It's far more descriptive, carries a positive connotation and it sounds way cooler.

-TBT

This is exactly how I tell people what I do that do not understand mining. Once I say that to them it’s like a light bulb goes off and they get it that much faster.

[yrk1957]

this is some sad news to hear all because of people being super unsafe with electrical loads on the wires to the point its a serious fire hazard

The point I was trying to make is that's not the case.  It's just Chelan PUD trying to keep the county from modernizing.  You're not hearing about fires, people dying, etc...  You're hearing misleading figures and outright lies designed to further their agenda.

Consider this quote from https://www.chelanpud.org/about-us/newsroom/news/2018/04/03/pud-board-acts-to-halt-unauthorized-bitcoin-mining  Take note that the announcement is actually coming from Chelan PUD.  It's not them being misquoted or taking things out of context.  John Stoll, Customer Utilities managing director, when discussing the recent shutdown of a "scoundrel's" (their word, not mine) mining operation.

They shutdown the mining operation because the power usage increased "to 11,000-plus kwH, far above what residential wiring is designed to carry."  Now at first glance that may sound like a lot but, as most of the people reading this forum already know, you need to break down the numbers to see what you're actually dealing with.  So, 11,000 kwH aggregated from a month of 24/7 mining.  11,000 kwH divided by 24*30=720 hours in a month.  That means 15.3kw per hour.  Divided by 240v = 63.75 amps.

63.75A??  That's what Chelan PUD considers "far above what residential wiring is designed to carry?"  What a joke!  Nearly all modern homes have at least 200A service and even the most ancient breaker I've ever seen is designed for 100A.  If it was the actual wiring from the breaker to the receptacles they're talking about that's just shitty wiring that's not up to code.  It has NOTHING to do with mining.  Anything you plug into an outlet with faulty wiring is going to cause a fire.

From a practical standpoint, I did some math about how much power was being pulled at my house while Easter dinner was being cooked.  Between my oven, range top, hot water heater, heat in the living room, etc...I was pulling WAY more power than that.  I pulled it for hours.  If you want to talk about fire hazard add to the raw power the fact that my oven was 350 degrees, I had four red-hot heating elements packed into a room with copious amounts of alcohol, all being piloted by a person who was far too intoxicated to legally drive.  Now THAT is a fire hazard but you don't see the PUD kicking down doors and pulling the plug on Nanna's Easter dinner.  The article even points out that when looking at the mining operation from the outside "they could see open windows and a balcony door open to the chilly spring air likely keeping the cryptocurrency mining equipment cool."  Far better than the single window open in my kitchen.

It has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with the PUD attempting to justify their stance.  Using the "Do it for the children!" argument is absolutely ridiculous.

-TBT

Maybe 240, but what if he was running at 120 with 100A service? That put’s it beyond 120. But then doesn’t the 100A meter trip?

[TheBottomTurtle]

But then doesn’t the 100A meter trip?

Exactly.  The PUD won't connect power to a panel bigger than what your service contract allows for.  It's theoretically possible to put in a bigger panel after the PUD had connected your service, without them cutting the feed.  Had that happened though 1) He'd probably be dead.  2) The PUD certainly would have mentioned it.  So either he was pulling 64A @ 240v from a 100A+ panel or he was pulling 128A @ 120v from a 200A+ panel.  Either way he was well within safe numbers and way below the power you pull when cooking a family dinner.

-TBT

[QuintLeo]

63.75A??  That's what Chelan PUD considers "far above what residential wiring is designed to carry?"  What a joke!  Nearly all modern homes have at least 200A service and even the most ancient breaker I've ever seen is designed for 100A.  If it was the actual wiring from the breaker to the receptacles they're talking about that's just shitty wiring that's not up to code.  It has NOTHING to do with mining.  Anything you plug into an outlet with faulty wiring is going to cause a fire.

It depends on the apartment - I've SEEN quite a few apartments in the area (I'm next door in Grant) that only have 50 amp service, and remember many others in other parts of the country.

If it was an apartment with 100 amp service, IMO the renter has grounds to file CRIMINAL charges for "making false accusations" as well as a big fat lawsuit for breach of contract and refusal to provide services.
If it was an apartment with 60 amp or less service, the renter should be in jail for criminal endangerment, in addition to facing a lawsuit and fines.


Power is NOT provided in the USA (except for a very few ancient LEGACY cases involving stuff that was originally DC powered and often close to a century old) at 117 VAC.
It's provided at 234 VAC "split phase" aka center tapped, and has been that way for decades.


The one that is still BOTHERING me *BIG TIME* is that one homeowner - who DOES seem to have grounds to sue based on what little has been reported on that case.
I also have to wonder if that homeowner has thought to file a complaint with the Washington State Utilities and Transportation Commission, or with the part of the state Office of the Attorney General that deals with utility issues, or BOTH.


The "power you pull when cooking a family dinner" is going to be somewhat less than 6 KW on average, as most electric ranges have 6 elements (one top one bottom in the range, 4 on the top for cooking with pans) at 1000 watts per element - and those elements turn OFF once they hit the "set point" temperature (more so on the oven, though the stovetop elements are easier to see).
That's assuming an electric range (a SAFE assumption in Central Washington except for places like Burger King due to the very low electric cost and lack of any local natural gas sources).


Most apartments have a "kill switch" somewhere before the panel for each apartment - it's POSSIBLE to replace a panel without shutting down the feed from the power company, but still a very UNSAFE idea as the wiring won't be sized correctly unless you are replacing the panel with a "same capacity" setup because the PANEL is going bad (it happens, but we're talking typically quite a few DECADES, or a panel that water wasn't kept away from and is rusting out).

[greyday]

I agree, fire risk should be taken seriously and one should tap the power way below its maximum rated, i learnt thrlere is something called continuois duty cycle rated about 70% below the max rated output for around the clock operation, not sure what other consoderation should be taken to make it safe, i am also keen on getting to know the ordinance in regards to what precautions to take even though ot does not apply to my area.

80% continuous load is code, but 70 or lower would definitely be safer unless you know what you're doing (and know for sure your wiring is modern and can handle the load).  Also keeping in mind that continuous load is defined as 3+ hours operation time, which means that if, for example, your tv, stereo, and PS4 are on the same circuit, you may end up having problems if you, say, watch Lord of the Rings.