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GideonGono
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August 09, 2011, 06:49:23 PM
 #21

I somewhat agree. I prefer decentralization and certainly don't see a need for states as large as they are. Rather than traditional elected representatives, I support direct democracy, albeit limited by a constitution and only to provide the utility function for a futarchy. I don't think any single person should be "in charge".

Way I look at it, if a little decentralization is good, then complete is best.
Interesting.  So does that mean that you believe in any case where some system having an element which can be decentralized for some particular benefit then further decentralization of that element will always result in a more optimal case for that benefit?

Can you show me instances where it does not?

Corporations have some degree of centralization, usually with a CEO on top. If complete decentralization was always better, then corporations would not exist; everyone would work for themselves.

I think the key difference is that as far as corporations are concerned the centralization is voluntary as opposed to involuntary centralization whenever the state is concerned.

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August 09, 2011, 10:40:48 PM
 #22

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If complete decentralization was always better, then corporations would not exist; everyone would work for themselves.

I don't care what's "better". What's right? Stealing from people or not stealing from people?
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August 09, 2011, 11:55:38 PM
 #23

I somewhat agree. I prefer decentralization and certainly don't see a need for states as large as they are. Rather than traditional elected representatives, I support direct democracy, albeit limited by a constitution and only to provide the utility function for a futarchy. I don't think any single person should be "in charge".

Way I look at it, if a little decentralization is good, then complete is best.
Interesting.  So does that mean that you believe in any case where some system having an element which can be decentralized for some particular benefit then further decentralization of that element will always result in a more optimal case for that benefit?

Can you show me instances where it does not?
Is that an implied yes? (I kind of expect you to bow out now...but let see what happens)
Is that an implied no? (I kind of expect you to bow out now...but let's see what happens)

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Explodicle
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August 10, 2011, 12:10:21 AM
 #24

GideonGono - exactly. I think we can agree that in the case of corporations, radical decentralization above all else would be bad.

bitcoin2cash - myrkul did not ask about "right", but to answer your question, obviously I agree that stealing is wrong. Would you please elaborate?
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August 10, 2011, 02:04:45 PM
 #25

I somewhat agree. I prefer decentralization and certainly don't see a need for states as large as they are. Rather than traditional elected representatives, I support direct democracy, albeit limited by a constitution and only to provide the utility function for a futarchy. I don't think any single person should be "in charge".

Way I look at it, if a little decentralization is good, then complete is best.
Interesting.  So does that mean that you believe in any case where some system having an element which can be decentralized for some particular benefit then further decentralization of that element will always result in a more optimal case for that benefit?

Can you show me instances where it does not?
Is that an implied yes? (I kind of expect you to bow out now...but let see what happens)
Is that an implied no? (I kind of expect you to bow out now...but let's see what happens)
Oh hey, it's the argumentation of fifteen year olds! (parroting).

Lulz, No it's not a "no" but it's kind of amusing how you've just become rather cagey about a point you made sound, at least to me as if it was pretty clear cut.  What's the point in me  dragging out examples if this isn't what you are saying?   I thought Atlas was the only person who demanded people attack strawmen for his amusement.  If you've just realized you've said something stupid then just fess up.  It happens.

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August 10, 2011, 04:02:07 PM
 #26

Lulz, No it's not a "no" but it's kind of amusing how you've just become rather cagey about a point you made sound, at least to me as if it was pretty clear cut.  What's the point in me  dragging out examples if this isn't what you are saying?   I thought Atlas was the only person who demanded people attack strawmen for his amusement.  If you've just realized you've said something stupid then just fess up.  It happens.

It's a fairly simple request. Give me one example where the efficiency/decentralization curve reverses.

I'll freely admit that there are organizations where decentralization would hurt efficiency. That's not what I'm talking about. I am saying, if a little decentralization is good, then more is better, and complete is best.

If you can't find one example to refute it, then fess up yourself. I don't feel like dancing today.

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August 10, 2011, 05:01:24 PM
 #27

Lulz, No it's not a "no" but it's kind of amusing how you've just become rather cagey about a point you made sound, at least to me as if it was pretty clear cut.  What's the point in me  dragging out examples if this isn't what you are saying?   I thought Atlas was the only person who demanded people attack strawmen for his amusement.  If you've just realized you've said something stupid then just fess up.  It happens.

It's a fairly simple request. Give me one example where the efficiency/decentralization curve reverses.

I'll freely admit that there are organizations where decentralization would hurt efficiency. That's not what I'm talking about. I am saying, if a little decentralization is good, then more is better, and complete is best.

If you can't find one example to refute it, then fess up yourself. I don't feel like dancing today.

Do you consider corporations to be completely centralized, partially decentralized, completely decentralized, or not applicable? I might be misunderstanding you, because corporations already optimize themselves for efficiency.
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August 10, 2011, 05:35:27 PM
 #28

Lulz, No it's not a "no" but it's kind of amusing how you've just become rather cagey about a point you made sound, at least to me as if it was pretty clear cut.  What's the point in me  dragging out examples if this isn't what you are saying?   I thought Atlas was the only person who demanded people attack strawmen for his amusement.  If you've just realized you've said something stupid then just fess up.  It happens.

Quote
It's a fairly simple request.
So is buying milk but I won't bother doing that unless I'm out.   If you're not going to commit to a position then it's no skin off my nose.  I sure don't mind having meta-discussion. I'm pretty easy about these things.   Like I said you made it sound pretty clear cut but hey if it's not then I don't really have to argue to make my point.  Good job!  Grin

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I don't feel like dancing today.
Completely incorrect.  You instigated dancing around (what I assume) is your point.  Furthermore it's the only thing you are devoting any energy to (in this conversation).  Contradiction city! LOL!

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August 10, 2011, 10:31:42 PM
 #29

It's a fairly simple request. Give me one example where the efficiency/decentralization curve reverses.

In fact, organizations can suffer from extreme decentralization. For example, some analysts believe that the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) experiences some problems because all its structure and systems are based on the assumption that crime needs to be investigated after it happens. Over time, this assumption led to a situation where, instead of following an overarching strategy, each FBI unit is completely decentralized and field agents determine how investigations should be pursued. It has been argued that due to the change in the nature of crimes, the FBI needs to gather accurate intelligence before a crime is committed; this requires more centralized decision making and strategy development.

Brazil, J. J. (2007, April). Mission: Impossible? Fast Company, 114, 92–109.

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myrkul
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August 10, 2011, 10:54:19 PM
 #30

 I sure don't mind having meta-discussion. I'm pretty easy about these things.  

All I've ever seen you do. You don't discuss topics. You discuss discussing topics.

I'm So Meta Even This Acronym.

And I'm not looking for examples of organizations suffering from decentralization. I know that some organizations benefit with centralization. I'm looking for a single example of the curve reversing. 

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Explodicle
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August 11, 2011, 12:19:17 AM
 #31

And I'm not looking for examples of organizations suffering from decentralization. I know that some organizations benefit with centralization. I'm looking for a single example of the curve reversing. 

I'll assume that you are implicitly accepting that the FBI would be more efficient if it was more centralized. If so, then one of two things must be true:
A) More centralization would help, all the way up to complete centralization. The director should be hands-on at the expense of everything else. Field agents should have no autonomy, instead following orders from the top down.
B) More centralization would help, up to a point. Once this point is crossed, the curve "reverses".

Right? If I'm waaaaaay off, could you draw me a few of these curves you describe?
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August 11, 2011, 01:53:07 AM
 #32

And I'm not looking for examples of organizations suffering from decentralization. I know that some organizations benefit with centralization. I'm looking for a single example of the curve reversing. 

I'll assume that you are implicitly accepting that the FBI would be more efficient if it was more centralized. If so, then one of two things must be true:
A) More centralization would help, all the way up to complete centralization. The director should be hands-on at the expense of everything else. Field agents should have no autonomy, instead following orders from the top down.
B) More centralization would help, up to a point. Once this point is crossed, the curve "reverses".

Right? If I'm waaaaaay off, could you draw me a few of these curves you describe?

The problem is you're just using a vague term "centralization" without describing exactly what's being centralized. Would the FBI benefit if all of their people were centralized to a single (very large) room? No. Would the FBI benefit if all of their data was centralized to a single network? Yes. Centralization is good and bad, depending on what's being centralized. As long as you're being vague, you won't reach any meaningful conclusions.
myrkul
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August 11, 2011, 05:40:14 AM
 #33

The problem is you're just using a vague term "centralization" without describing exactly what's being centralized. Would the FBI benefit if all of their people were centralized to a single (very large) room? No. Would the FBI benefit if all of their data was centralized to a single network? Yes. Centralization is good and bad, depending on what's being centralized. As long as you're being vague, you won't reach any meaningful conclusions.

Good point.

Let me clarify: When I say "Centralization", I mean "Centralization of command structure" ie: there is a distinct "boss"
When I say "Decentralization", I mean "an increase in individual autonomy".

I hope this helps. I doubt it, but I still hope.

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Explodicle
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August 11, 2011, 12:59:14 PM
 #34

The problem is you're just using a vague term "centralization" without describing exactly what's being centralized. Would the FBI benefit if all of their people were centralized to a single (very large) room? No. Would the FBI benefit if all of their data was centralized to a single network? Yes. Centralization is good and bad, depending on what's being centralized. As long as you're being vague, you won't reach any meaningful conclusions.

Good point.

Let me clarify: When I say "Centralization", I mean "Centralization of command structure" ie: there is a distinct "boss"
When I say "Decentralization", I mean "an increase in individual autonomy".

I hope this helps. I doubt it, but I still hope.

myrkul - Unfortunately not, I have been using the same definition. Would you please draw one of these curves you have been talking about?
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August 11, 2011, 02:22:36 PM
 #35

 I sure don't mind having meta-discussion. I'm pretty easy about these things.  

All I've ever seen you do.
As is becoming your trademark.  You are completely incorrect.  I gave you a clear question about your position which you refuse to answer.  That is not discussing discussing topics.  However like I said I'm fine with having meta discussion but it's silly to whine about my doing so when you won't answer a question about your point.

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You don't discuss topics. You discuss discussing topics.
Primarily when instigated by other people (like what you are doing right now!) QED baby!  Grin

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And I'm not looking for examples of organizations suffering from decentralization. I know that some organizations benefit with centralization. I'm looking for a single example of the curve reversing.  
Your point is pretty horribly defined...Curve of what "betterness"?  What is the metric?
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When I say "Centralization", I mean "Centralization of command structure" ie: there is a distinct "boss"
Again a pretty terrible definition.  What does the boss do?  Provide information on what to work on?  So a centralized system has all work dolled out from a central source? Is any increase in worker autonomy - that is the worker is now able to choose their tasks - considered ...well...to increase whatever the metric is you think you are looking at?  Does any reduction in work being assigned from a single source decentralize an organization?  Does any amalgamation of work assignment into a single source centralize an organization?

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Would the FBI benefit if all of their data was centralized to a single network?

Even then, if you don't define your metric the answer is indeterminate.  For example, if you're trying to optimize security - information sequestering (which includes putting the information into separate networks) *is* beneficial.


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August 11, 2011, 03:45:36 PM
 #36

Ok, let us skip the semantics and just use this definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Decentralization&oldid=444266119

I feel like we've all been "dancing around" the contentious claim: if some decentralization helps, then complete is best. What about the FBI, whose intermediate decentralization goes too far? What about corporations, whose intermediate centralization already appears to be optimized? WTF does a curve "reversing" even look like?

If you've given up on meaningful conversation with another user, fine, don't bother. Everyone can see for themselves what has been written and personal attacks accomplish nothing.
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August 11, 2011, 04:06:59 PM
 #37

Ok, let us skip the semantics and just use this definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Decentralization&oldid=444266119

I feel like we've all been "dancing around" the contentious claim: if some decentralization helps, then complete is best. What about the FBI, whose intermediate decentralization goes too far? What about corporations, whose intermediate centralization already appears to be optimized? WTF does a curve "reversing" even look like?

If you've given up on meaningful conversation with another user, fine, don't bother. Everyone can see for themselves what has been written and personal attacks accomplish nothing.
Actually, I'd say that the Wiki makes the whole thing less clear but anyway.  If there exists organizations - that is groups of people who are attempting to accomplish some set of tasks - which can not benefit - that is increase (or decrease) some metric - from decentralization - that is pushing decision making toward the bottom of the organizational pyramid.  Then I'd say that the discussion is pretty much over.  As this would necessitate the existence of organizations for which decentralization would only benefit to a limited degree after which further decentralization would be to the organizations detriment. QED

But who knows what these guys/gals are actually talking about...maybe everyone is just referring to some set of trivial cases...wouldn't be the first time!  Grin

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myrkul
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August 11, 2011, 04:35:29 PM
 #38

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And I'm not looking for examples of organizations suffering from decentralization. I know that some organizations benefit with centralization. I'm looking for a single example of the curve reversing.  
Your point is pretty horribly defined...Curve of what "betterness"?  What is the metric?

Efficiency. I thought I made that clear here:
It's a fairly simple request. Give me one example where the efficiency/decentralization curve reverses.
You're an idiot.
Moving on:

I feel like we've all been "dancing around" the contentious claim: if some decentralization helps, then complete is best. What about the FBI, whose intermediate decentralization goes too far? What about corporations, whose intermediate centralization already appears to be optimized? WTF does a curve "reversing" even look like?

I don't feel like actually going to the trouble of breaking out the graphics program, so I'll describe it:
X Axis: Decentralization of command structure, 0 being hierarchical, endpoint being complete individual autonomy
Y Axis: Efficiency, as defined by either profit/costs or speed of response to changing conditions. 0 being inefficient, endpoint being maximum efficiency.
I contend that though the line may not start at (0,0) or (0,100), but that from the start point, the line is straight, and either direct or inverse, or that it looks like the bitcoin supply curve (or again, the inverse). The curve "reversing" would look like a parabola, starting out either direct or inverse, and switching at some point to the other.

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August 11, 2011, 04:38:50 PM
 #39

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And I'm not looking for examples of organizations suffering from decentralization. I know that some organizations benefit with centralization. I'm looking for a single example of the curve reversing.  
Your point is pretty horribly defined...Curve of what "betterness"?  What is the metric?

Efficiency. I thought I made that clear here:
It's a fairly simple request. Give me one example where the efficiency/decentralization curve reverses.
Same thing.  What's the unit of "efficiency"?  Anyway, as demonstrated above your point is pretty much moot.

I'm rather good with Linux.  If you're having problems with your mining rig I'll help you out remotely for 0.05.  You can also propose a flat-rate for some particular task.  PM me for details.
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August 11, 2011, 05:07:50 PM
 #40

Same thing.  What's the unit of "efficiency"?  Anyway, as demonstrated above your point is pretty much moot.

In your signature, you claim to be "rather good" with Linux. What's the unit of "goodness"?

Putz.

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