Wiping all copies of bitcoin blockchain VS bank's database

[uyjulian]

How hard would it be to wipe all copies of the bitcoin blockchain VS a bank's database ?

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[uyjulian]

There are more copies of blockchain than bank's database... but most likely bank's database is secured...

[pand70]

Wiping all copies of the blockchain is impossible but i haven't heard of a bank losing their database either...

[Dabs]

You see, a bank only has their database in a few locations. Maybe it is in their data center and all their backups are in all their different branches, and a few backups in remote locations. They will also accept printed hard copy bank statements and pass books in case of computer failure.

They have enterprise systems to take care of all this.

The bitcoin blockchain is in at least a few million locations by now, and synchronized across the world. Every country has a few hundred to a few thousand copies of the blockchain.

[uyjulian]

Hmm, no hard copies of the bitcoin blockchain?

[40-Pin]

I always wondered how many servers/databases are protected from EMPs? I would think they would build a Faraday cage into the walls but maybe not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage

[callem]

It's just not possible. As long as there's a single copy of the blockchain anywhere, on any hard drive in the world, the network will rebuild itself, even if every other node had been destroyed. It may seem unsettling, but there is actually nothing that can stop it, short of 'turning off the internet', which is of course impossible, since the internet itself was designed to reconfigure itself in the face of any disruption.

Bitcoin must prevail, its code does not permit any other outcome.

[callem]

I always wondered how many servers/databases are protected from EMPs? I would think they would build a Faraday cage into the walls but maybe not.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faraday_cage

Facilities with solid copper-sheet lined walls definitely exist (for EMP protection, etc). I've seen them first hand.

[BurtW]

Hmm, no hard copies of the bitcoin blockchain?

Nothing is stopping you from printing it out.  It would be a huge waste of paper and be out of date as soon as you stopped printing.

[uyjulian]

Hmm, no hard copies of the bitcoin blockchain?

Nothing is stopping you from printing it out.  It would be a huge waste of paper and be out of date as soon as you stopped printing.

So, no permanent copies of the Bitcoin blockchain on paper...

[BurtW]

Hmm, no hard copies of the bitcoin blockchain?

Nothing is stopping you from printing it out.  It would be a huge waste of paper and be out of date as soon as you stopped printing.

So, no permanent copies of the Bitcoin blockchain on paper...

There are thousands of copies of the blockchain distributed all over the planet.  If that is not good enough for you then please print out a copy.  Be sure to report back here how many pages it turns out to be.  Thanks!

[uyjulian]

Hmm, no hard copies of the bitcoin blockchain?

Nothing is stopping you from printing it out.  It would be a huge waste of paper and be out of date as soon as you stopped printing.

So, no permanent copies of the Bitcoin blockchain on paper...

There are thousands of copies of the blockchain distributed all over the planet.  If that is not good enough for you then please print out a copy.  Be sure to report back here how many pages it turns out to be.  Thanks!

Lol, like 10GB of paper...

[Dabs]

There is no EMP that is powerful enough to wipe out the entire planet all at once. For all you know, the blockchain is also on the International Space Station or the moon. And some submarines might have copies too, they are underwater and shielded.

[Lauda]

There are many torrents and backups, so it wouldn't be possible.
I didn't hear a banks database get wiped, ever.

[40-Pin]

I agree there is no EMP big enough to take out the whole world but its interesting that few people realize the HUGE EMP that can be created blowing up a nuclear bomb in the atmosphere.

"in July 1962 the Starfish Prime test damaged electronics in Honolulu and New Zealand (approximately 1,300 kilometers away), fused 300 street lights on Oahu (Hawaii), set off about 100 burglar alarms, and caused the failure of a microwave repeating station on Kauai, which cut off the sturdy telephone system from the other Hawaiian islands."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-altitude_nuclear_explosion

Granted still not enough to take out the world but really interesting if you think of the economic shutdown effect this would have on a small countries economy. Which is why I am unsure why the US has never used an EMP in general (not just the nuke generated kind) to cripple a enemy nations economy, and then swoop in and complete a mission while the communications and infrastructure is down.

[jeppe]

It would nearly be impossible even if you would be able to spread a virus that would infect every online computer with the blockchain and deleted it there would still be offline software wallets that would have the blockchain or most of it

[StarfishPrime]

Hmm, no hard copies of the bitcoin blockchain?

If all the other copies are lost (by EMP, supernova, etc.) who's going to type it in to a computer, even if you're able to cart your singed copy of the paper blockchain across the apocalyptic wasteland to find a PC?

You'd likely have far bigger worries than your BTC balance.

[Lauda]

What if we get hit by a massive solar flare, that could leave us without electricity, computers, internet for a prolonged time.
Would Bitcoin die?

[StarfishPrime]

What if we get hit by a massive solar flare, that could leave us without electricity, computers, internet for a prolonged time.
Would Bitcoin die?

No. Nothing can kill it unless every last copy of the blockchain, everywhere in the world is destroyed. If that ever happens, bitcoin will be the least of anyone's worries.

As long as the internet exists and there is one copy of the blockchain left, the bitcoin network will rebuild itself. It's not going anywhere.

[Lauda]

What if we get hit by a massive solar flare, that could leave us without electricity, computers, internet for a prolonged time.
Would Bitcoin die?

No. Nothing can kill it unless every last copy of the blockchain, everywhere in the world is destroyed. If that ever happens, bitcoin will be the least of anyone's worries.

As long as the internet exists and there is one copy of the blockchain left, the bitcoin network will rebuild itself. It's not going anywhere.

Did you just read what I said. A massive one would take out everything.
It's true bitcoin wouldn't be among the priority list of worries, but I'm asking for it specific.
What would happen to the network if it was down for a month, no miners, no users, no nodes, no nothing?

[protokol]

What if we get hit by a massive solar flare, that could leave us without electricity, computers, internet for a prolonged time.
Would Bitcoin die?

No. Nothing can kill it unless every last copy of the blockchain, everywhere in the world is destroyed. If that ever happens, bitcoin will be the least of anyone's worries.

As long as the internet exists and there is one copy of the blockchain left, the bitcoin network will rebuild itself. It's not going anywhere.

Did you just read what I said. A massive one would take out everything.
It's true bitcoin wouldn't be among the priority list of worries, but I'm asking for it specific.
What would happen to the network if it was down for a month, no miners, no users, no nodes, no nothing?

Then we'd have to live with dirty fiat cash until things got sorted out. You know, IOUs 

[Lauda]

What would happen to the network if it was down for a month, no miners, no users, no nodes, no nothing?

Then we'd have to live with dirty fiat cash until things got sorted out. You know, IOUs 
[/quote]
That doesn't really answer the question.
I asked what would happen to the network, not with us.

[jbreher]

I guess you've never heard of packet radio. There are octogenarians in your very community that are prepared to restore a low-bandwidth version of the internet over the airwaves. With equipment stored in faraday cages to escape the initial EMP issue.

[oakpacific]

What if we get hit by a massive solar flare, that could leave us without electricity, computers, internet for a prolonged time.
Would Bitcoin die?

No. Nothing can kill it unless every last copy of the blockchain, everywhere in the world is destroyed. If that ever happens, bitcoin will be the least of anyone's worries.

As long as the internet exists and there is one copy of the blockchain left, the bitcoin network will rebuild itself. It's not going anywhere.

Did you just read what I said. A massive one would take out everything.
It's true bitcoin wouldn't be among the priority list of worries, but I'm asking for it specific.
What would happen to the network if it was down for a month, no miners, no users, no nodes, no nothing?

Microfilms could be utilized to store the blockchain I believe.

[Lauda]

I guess you've never heard of packet radio. There are octogenarians in your very community that are prepared to restore a low-bandwidth version of the internet over the airwaves. With equipment stored in faraday cages to escape the initial EMP issue.

No I haven't heard of such things.

[callem]

I guess you've never heard of packet radio. There are octogenarians in your very community that are prepared to restore a low-bandwidth version of the internet over the airwaves. With equipment stored in faraday cages to escape the initial EMP issue.

No I haven't heard of such things.

Well - they exist- which is why none of these  "no more blockchain" scenarios can ever actually happen in real life.

The blockchain is almost certainly the data most likely to survive any apocalyptic event by it's unprecedented ubiquity alone. Especially now that a forum member is apparently busy printing a paper copy for backup...

[franky1]

That doesn't really answer the question.
I asked what would happen to the network, not with us.

EMP make electronics fail.. EG your power supply mainboard will blow. this will not do much to the hard drive or the USB key that is not plugged in..
so you would buy a new PSU and maybe a new mainboard. then plug in your hard drive /USB key and away you go again.

for a solar flare to cause this, it would only in reality even at the most deadliest flare imaginable, affect electronics on the side of the planet in daylight at the time (side facing the sun) if it were an EMP from a nuclear explosion that was able to reach around the whole of the planet. then the radioactive puss filled blisters all over your body that will slowly kill you in hours would be more of a concern then the wealth you held back for retirement

[Lauda]

EMP make electronics fail.. EG your power supply will blow. this will not do much to the hard drive or the USB key that is not plugged in..

so you would buy a new PSU and maybe a new mainboard. then plug in your hard drive and away you go again.

for a solar flare to cause this, it would only in reality even at the most deadliest flare imaginable, affect electronics on the side of the planet in daylight at the time (side facing the sun) if it were an EMP from a nuclear explosion that was able to reach around the whole of the planet. then the radioactive puss filled blisters all over your body that will slowly kill you in hours would be more of a concern then the wealth you held back for retirement

Interesting. I was actually thinking about this: what if the internet stopped working for a day, would the network just resume normal operations as soon as people started coming back online?

[Gabi]

If we go back to middle age then we will start use gold again 

[callem]

EMP make electronics fail.. EG your power supply will blow. this will not do much to the hard drive or the USB key that is not plugged in..

so you would buy a new PSU and maybe a new mainboard. then plug in your hard drive and away you go again.

for a solar flare to cause this, it would only in reality even at the most deadliest flare imaginable, affect electronics on the side of the planet in daylight at the time (side facing the sun) if it were an EMP from a nuclear explosion that was able to reach around the whole of the planet. then the radioactive puss filled blisters all over your body that will slowly kill you in hours would be more of a concern then the wealth you held back for retirement

Interesting. I was actually thinking about this: what if the internet stopped working for a day, would the network just resume normal operations as soon as people started coming back online?

Yes.

[Lauda]

Yes.

You know this how?
What stops the first person coming online from doing a 51%?

[40-Pin]

You could just burn it to a Blu-Ray disc or a few DVDs. If you want it to last longer then try an M-Disc. All of them are EMP-proof. Any optical media really.

[oakpacific]

Yes.

You know this how?
What stops the first person coming online from doing a 51%?

That's not how 51% attack works, you need to have a main blockchain you don't work on first to pull off a 51% attack.

[Lauda]

Yes.

You know this how?
What stops the first person coming online from doing a 51%?

That's not how 51% attack works, you need to have a main blockchain you don't work on first to pull off a 51% attack.

Use your brain.
If you came on first wouldn't you start mining (lets say the diff. adjusted)? Then you'd be 100% hashrate.

[jdbtracker]

as far as I know the banking system uses a 5 back-up system, you find the locations of all the servers emp blast those and you reset the entire credit system for that individual bank... they'd never be able to recover, not without serious back-tracking, only money that could be traced to other banks would be safe. But that would still mean a large chunk of the inflationary money supply would be destroyed.

over a wide area a orbital detonation could wipe out all the servers in North America, all those banks would be destroyed... the blockchain would go on.

[StarfishPrime]

Yes.

You know this how?
What stops the first person coming online from doing a 51%?

That's not how 51% attack works, you need to have a main blockchain you don't work on first to pull off a 51% attack.

Use your brain.
If you came on first wouldn't you start mining (lets say the diff. adjusted)? Then you'd be 100% hashrate.

And precisely what could you accomplish, all alone on your private network with 100% of the hashing power?

Exactly. Nothing.

Why wait for an EMP? - go ahead, unplug your internet connection and give it a go!

[oakpacific]

Yes.

You know this how?
What stops the first person coming online from doing a 51%?

That's not how 51% attack works, you need to have a main blockchain you don't work on first to pull off a 51% attack.

Use your brain.
If you came on first wouldn't you start mining (lets say the diff. adjusted)? Then you'd be 100% hashrate.

There has to be two competing blockchains, or there is no way to do double-spending, thus no 51% attack.

You simply have no idea what 51% attack is, read more, talk less.

[drawingthesun]

It's just not possible. As long as there's a single copy of the blockchain anywhere, on any hard drive in the world, the network will rebuild itself, even if every other node had been destroyed. It may seem unsettling, but there is actually nothing that can stop it, short of 'turning off the internet', which is of course impossible, since the internet itself was designed to reconfigure itself in the face of any disruption.

Bitcoin must prevail, its code does not permit any other outcome.

A single copy of the blockchain is open to manipulation.

[oakpacific]

It's just not possible. As long as there's a single copy of the blockchain anywhere, on any hard drive in the world, the network will rebuild itself, even if every other node had been destroyed. It may seem unsettling, but there is actually nothing that can stop it, short of 'turning off the internet', which is of course impossible, since the internet itself was designed to reconfigure itself in the face of any disruption.

Bitcoin must prevail, its code does not permit any other outcome.

A single copy of the blockchain is open to manipulation.

Not really, you need hundreds of millions of dollar of hardware and electricity to work months for you to recreate another one.

[drawingthesun]

It's just not possible. As long as there's a single copy of the blockchain anywhere, on any hard drive in the world, the network will rebuild itself, even if every other node had been destroyed. It may seem unsettling, but there is actually nothing that can stop it, short of 'turning off the internet', which is of course impossible, since the internet itself was designed to reconfigure itself in the face of any disruption.

Bitcoin must prevail, its code does not permit any other outcome.

A single copy of the blockchain is open to manipulation.

Not really, you need hundreds of millions of dollar of hardware and electricity to work months for you to recreate another one.

Except for the latest few weeks or maybe a month, most miners could recreate most of the early stuff with ease. Especially if you have a farm.

[oakpacific]

It's just not possible. As long as there's a single copy of the blockchain anywhere, on any hard drive in the world, the network will rebuild itself, even if every other node had been destroyed. It may seem unsettling, but there is actually nothing that can stop it, short of 'turning off the internet', which is of course impossible, since the internet itself was designed to reconfigure itself in the face of any disruption.

Bitcoin must prevail, its code does not permit any other outcome.

A single copy of the blockchain is open to manipulation.

Not really, you need hundreds of millions of dollar of hardware and electricity to work months for you to recreate another one.

Except for the latest few weeks or maybe a month, most miners could recreate most of the early stuff with ease. Especially if you have a farm.

Remember the last blockhash of a recent date and you will really give them some big headaches.

[callem]

It's just not possible. As long as there's a single copy of the blockchain anywhere, on any hard drive in the world, the network will rebuild itself, even if every other node had been destroyed. It may seem unsettling, but there is actually nothing that can stop it, short of 'turning off the internet', which is of course impossible, since the internet itself was designed to reconfigure itself in the face of any disruption.

Bitcoin must prevail, its code does not permit any other outcome.

A single copy of the blockchain is open to manipulation.

Not really, you need hundreds of millions of dollar of hardware and electricity to work months for you to recreate another one.

Yes. Satoshi's paper is right there at bitcoin.org - surprising how few people seem to have actually read it.

HAL: "Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye. "

[fendlestick]

Bitcoin must prevail, its code does not permit any other outcome.

That's a great quote +1