Sold 0.008 btc for over 11,000 USD at mtgox [Updated]

[Xiong Zhuang]

Withdrawn successfully from mtgox to dwolla.

Now I am worried about if mtgox will charge back the money...



And 2 day before this crazy thing happened I withdrawn 2,000 usd from mtgox to my LR account and it still in progress, I hope they won't cancel my withdrawal...

Now my balance in mtgox is -1540.17492

Updated: Mtgox canceled my withdraw request to LR of 2000$, now my balance is positive again.



 

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[Andris]

Of course mtGox will charge back the money. He has six months to do so. If you spend it, you are on the hook. I would highly suggest leaving it where it is so it goes smoothly for Dwolla.

[airdata]

Reminds me of when I withdrew $2000 from my bank account and their automated podium didn't have enough, so they had to cancel and re run the transaction.  They gave me $2000 and credited me $2000 to my account.


Took them a month or 2 to find and correct the error.

[qikaifu]

Of course mtGox will charge back the money. He has six months to do so. If you spend it, you are on the hook. I would highly suggest leaving it where it is so it goes smoothly for Dwolla.

He is chinese name. If he is in china, you have to spend at least 10k usd to got him.

[Andris]

He is chinese name. If he is in china, you have to spend at least 10k usd to got him.

1) Dwolla is US only
2) Dwolla transactions are subject to ACH reversal.

Doesn't matter if he's in China or not.

[kiwiasian]

Dwolla doesn't do chargebacks...you can't reverse the transaction.

[Xiong Zhuang]

Of course mtGox will charge back the money. He has six months to do so. If you spend it, you are on the hook. I would highly suggest leaving it where it is so it goes smoothly for Dwolla.

He is chinese name. If he is in china, you have to spend at least 10k usd to got him.

I do live in China, and if Mtgox cancel my LR withdraw which still in progress, I have to give the money back.

[John (John K.)]

They do chargebacks. But he could launder the money quick and fast  

[elggawf]

Dwolla doesn't do chargebacks...you can't reverse the transaction.

Someone doesn't pay attention to current events it seems.

Dwolla's marketing speak is a bunch of shit, everywhere they said "no chargeback concerns" is a lie.

[John (John K.)]

Prolly the last money transferring system without chargebacks are LR 

[Xiong Zhuang]

They do chargebacks. But he could launder the money quick and fast  

I can't do that, can you teach me?

[bitbot]

i believe that legally he should be able to keep the money

he sold bitcoins and got the money

[Andris]

Dwolla doesn't do chargebacks...you can't reverse the transaction.

Considering they seem to have a very close relationship, my guess is that anyone with a negative balance is going to see a reversal.

[John (John K.)]

They do chargebacks. But he could launder the money quick and fast  

I can't do that, can you teach me?

That is illegal and unless you're behind some strong proxies chances are you're gonna face the problems later.

[Xiong Zhuang]

Dwolla doesn't do chargebacks...you can't reverse the transaction.

Considering they seem to have a very close relationship, my guess is that anyone with a negative balance is going to see a reversal.

I doubt it's only me have a negative balance. I curious about how the reputation of mtgox and dwolla will go after this issue.

[bitbot]

should have used liberty reserve

[bitbot]

and since you are in negative you may find it impossible to withdraw any bitcoins you may own until you put your account into green again

[Xiong Zhuang]

They do chargebacks. But he could launder the money quick and fast  

I can't do that, can you teach me?

That is illegal and unless you're behind some strong proxies chances are you're gonna face the problems later.

Easy dude, I am not going anywhere.

[kiwiasian]

Dwolla doesn't do chargebacks...you can't reverse the transaction.

Someone doesn't pay attention to current events it seems.

Dwolla's marketing speak is a bunch of shit, everywhere they said "no chargeback concerns" is a lie.

And yet everyone loves Dwolla but hates Paypal.

[John (John K.)]

should have used liberty reserve

+1 But the problem is LR is currently on hold on mtgox due to outage of lr funds. That sucks  
Anyhow, prepare for another rollback  

[Andris]

I doubt it's only me have a negative balance. I curious about how the reputation of mtgox and dwolla will go after this issue.

mtGox? I don't know. Dwolla has called me personally and listened to my concerns and desire for features, I'm fairly confident about their future.

And yet everyone loves Dwolla but hates Paypal.

Oh yes, Paypal is so much better when it comes to chargebacks. /sarcasm

[elggawf]

Oh yes, Paypal is so much better when it comes to chargebacks. /sarcasm

Paypal is what it is - everyone using it now should fully comprehend that until you get your money safely into a real banka ccount it it's not really your money... they should fully understand that Paypal is chargeback hell, particularly if you're selling "high risk" things/services.

Dwolla on the other hand claimed cash-like transactions, no chargeback concerns, etc... and it turned out to be bullshit. I'm almost willing to bet that the 25c transactions is bullshit too. I'm wondering if it's below-cost, that they're operating on venture capital and that they're just hoping to reach critical mass before the VC runs out and they have to up their charges.

Note that some parts of their site still say "no chargeback concerns" yet their support/PR people will happily tell you they've always had a process for filing disputes. Until they do something to demonstrate that their marketing hasn't been 100% bullshit, I'm not going to waste my time implementing their payment system into my billing system, though I do still use them for turning BTC into USD.

[Andris]

Dwolla has stated up front from when I first heard about them that ACH chargebacks were possible.

[wumpus]

huh, since when are bitcoins $137500?

[John (John K.)]

huh, since when are bitcoins $137500?

Either you're referring to the one  like 1 hour ago or you meant like 10 years later

[elggawf]

Dwolla has stated up front from when I first heard about them that ACH chargebacks were possible.

... and yet all their marketing stuff says the opposite. Landing them firmly in the bullshit, "as seen on TV" category.

I don't have a problem with chargebacks, or anything Dwolla has done. I actually like the service, and I still use it (sparingly). But you have to call bullshit when you see it.

[bitbot]

why dont you setup a transfer from dwolla to your bank and hope it clears tomorrow

[oakpacific]

I have never got it, are you guys using Dwolla for the fear of disclosing your bank details to Mt.Gox? I am in UK and Gox would process my bank wire transfer(they have a domestic bank account) within 1-2 days.

[elggawf]

I have never got it, are you guys using Dwolla for the fear of disclosing your bank details to Mt.Gox? I am in UK and Gox would process my bank wire transfer(they have a domestic bank account) within 1-2 days.

I don't think there's a bank transfer option on MtGox, and SEPA transfers are 2% fees. Depending on what you transfer, 25c might be less than 2%.

[joulesbeef]

i believe that legally he should be able to keep the money

he sold bitcoins and got the money

you cant "legally" sell on a glitch.
Had an individual been a fool and accidently bought for that much.. he might have a case but not on a glitch, the money isnt his and he can be prosecuted.

[Tasty Champa]

As far as I can tell no one has anything to be concerned about with dwolla and mtgox unless they go do some silly shit like what OP is stating having done. 

[oakpacific]

I have never got it, are you guys using Dwolla for the fear of disclosing your bank details to Mt.Gox? I am in UK and Gox would process my bank wire transfer(they have a domestic bank account) within 1-2 days.

I don't think there's a bank transfer option on MtGox, and SEPA transfers are 2% fees. Depending on what you transfer, 25c might be less than 2%.

Hmmm.....GBP deposits are free in UK.

[TiagoTiago]

Wow!!! If only you had a whole bitcoin to sell at that moment instead of just 8 millies 0.0


Why did your balance go negative though?

[stsbrad]

i believe that legally he should be able to keep the money

he sold bitcoins and got the money

you cant "legally" sell on a glitch.
Had an individual been a fool and accidently bought for that much.. he might have a case but not on a glitch, the money isnt his and he can be prosecuted.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 100% Correct. Glitches don't mean you can get rich legally. I work for a large financial institution and recently one of our ATM's had a 20 dollar bill cassette in the 5's slot and 5's in the 20. The customer hit the machine for an hour and took out THOUSANDS. Police were sent to his house, DA's office threatened prosecution and money was instantly returned. I think the same would apply here.

[Xiong Zhuang]

I will wait mtgox to post there announcement about the glitch.

[MagicalTux]

I will wait mtgox to post there announcement about the glitch.

https://support.mtgox.com/entries/20323996-mt-gox-system-update-troubles

[TiagoTiago]

So if someone pays for a BigMac with a 100 bill without the person nor the cashier noticing McDonald's must hold the extra change waiting to return it whenever the person presents themself?

[Andris]

So if someone pays for a BigMac with a 100 bill without the person nor the cashier noticing McDonald's must hold the extra change waiting to return it whenever the person presents themself?

I know this is how it worked when I was in retail.

[Mt.Fun]

So if someone pays for a BigMac with a 100 bill without the person nor the cashier noticing McDonald's must hold the extra change waiting to return it whenever the person presents themself?

I'm sure McDonald's would give the person their change if the cashier made a mistake.

[TiagoTiago]

What if they had an automated vending machine like cashier and the person didn't noticed a hundred bill fell into the slot folded in such a way that it skipped the bill reader?

[Bobnova]

Lets be realistic here.
McDonalds would fire the checker for screwing up, and then demand concrete proof from the customer that the customer doesn't have, and then keep the change.

If you-an-individual screwed up like that bank did you wouldn't find the police or the DA very useful at all.

Gox will get Gox's money back, because Gox is bigger than you.

[Dansko]

So if someone pays for a BigMac with a 100 bill without the person nor the cashier noticing McDonald's must hold the extra change waiting to return it whenever the person presents themself?

I think they would give it back up until the register was counted down. After that your SOL.

[kwukduck]

Nice price!
I completely fail to see why anyone is still using Gox when there are other exchanges that seem to do a much better job at less cost for the customers..

[SmokeAndMirrors]

Reminds me of the time my bank credited my account with $150,000. If MTGox is anything like my bank, they will charge your for every penny withdrawn.

[koin]

I will wait mtgox to post there announcement about the glitch.

https://support.mtgox.com/entries/20323996-mt-gox-system-update-troubles

so to understand this correctly.

mt. gox performs a major upgrade live, and rather than bringing the exchange down for maintenance relies simply on mysql table locks to prevent the processing of live activity.

even though this was a major update, and the date was known for weeks, the exchange didn't put even the basic protection of halting dwolla withdrawals for a few hours so that if anything went haywire (which it did, of course), all of the funds held by the exchange would still be under the control of the exchange?

does this accurately describe the situation?

[phantomcircuit]

I will wait mtgox to post there announcement about the glitch.

https://support.mtgox.com/entries/20323996-mt-gox-system-update-troubles

so to understand this correctly.

mt. gox performs a major upgrade live, and rather than bringing the exchange down for maintenance relies simply on mysql table locks to prevent the processing of live activity.

even though this was a major update, and the date was known for weeks, the exchange didn't put even the basic protection of halting dwolla withdrawals for a few hours so that if anything went haywire (which it did, of course), all of the funds held by the exchange would still be under the control of the exchange?

does this accurately describe the situation?

yes

[jondecker76]

i think that if someone got away with a trade, they should get to keep the money. Mtgox sure didn't give a shit about a lot of us (myself included) who had btc stolen from their database compromise.  that would be a bit if a double standard, now wouldn't it?

[BitPay Business Solutions]

somewhere, someone actually BOUGHT your BTC for $11,000.  Has anyone admitted to being that fat finger?

[koin]

Has anyone admitted to being that fat finger?

yes, tux admitted it was he (or, more specifically, that there was a problem during the migration).

apparently the mysql table lock was released, unexpectedly, during the migration.  activity occurred such that the api code was probably then mismatched against the underlying tables.  that is why the trades had to be rolled back -- they weren't real, nobody was buying at $11k per btc.

[JoelKatz]

Dwolla has stated up front from when I first heard about them that ACH chargebacks were possible.

We all know ACH chargebacks between the depositor and Dwolla are possible. That wasn't the issue. The issue is whether Dwolla will pass on the chargeback to the merchant if an ACH chargeback occurs. They specifically said they would not:

Remember, these are cash-based transactions! No credit card fees, chargeback concerns, or signing necessary!

http://www.dwolla.org/blog/retail-merchants-rejoice-web-kiosk-online/

And they had, and still have, no legal grounds to do so. The transfer from Dwolla to the merchant was approved by Dwolla. So they cannot claim the transfer to the merchant was unauthorized by the originator of that transfer.

Dwolla still has not claimed the right to pass on chargebacks to indirect recipients. All they have said is that they can chargeback the sender and they can claw back funds prior to arbitration. So if I put $100 in my Dwolla account and then reverse that deposit, they can deduct $100 from my Dwolla account without going to arbitration. They have never claimed the right to deduct from other people's Dwolla accounts, yet they have done so.

The receiving party of a transaction may be subject to chargebacks occurring within the account if claims are made by the sending party or by the financial institution. In the event fraud occurs, funds may be reversed and arbitration will begin with both parties.

https://www.dwolla.com/dialogs/terms_and_conditions.aspx

This clearly says that it is about chargebacks within the account. It doesn't say anything about charging back Jack's account because Jeff issued a dispute. The last part also doesn't say they can charge back Jack because Jeff did something fraudulent.

[Clipse]

Xiong Zhuang, I can tell you now that you will not see a penny of that withdrawal since its mostly manually processed and specially after the stuffup.

What may happen is that you would lose that money (you clearly wanted to run with it) and probably have your account locked on mtgox.

[aandreas]

i vote for op. would love to see him come away with that. whom can u trust, if not the price of the biggest exchange?

[idev]

Dwolla doesn't do chargebacks...you can't reverse the transaction.

Someone doesn't pay attention to current events it seems.

Dwolla's marketing speak is a bunch of shit, everywhere they said "no chargeback concerns" is a lie.

And yet everyone loves Dwolla but hates Paypal.

Yep its just another glorified Paypal clone with a nicer web design.

[Mistafreeze]

i vote for op. would love to see him come away with that. whom can u trust, if not the price of the biggest exchange?

It has nothing to do with trust when someone obviously tries to take advantage of a glitch. Nobody is dumb enough to believe that the price went up to the point of geting $11,000 for .08BTC.

If you walked into your bank and told them you wanted $10.00 in cash, and they handed you $110,000, would you still think you're entitled to it?

Why does it seem this community is about screwing or scamming anyone so long as it gets you ahead?

[kwukduck]

i vote for op. would love to see him come away with that. whom can u trust, if not the price of the biggest exchange?

It has nothing to do with trust when someone obviously tries to take advantage of a glitch. Nobody is dumb enough to believe that the price went up to the point of geting $11,000 for .08BTC.

If you walked into your bank and told them you wanted $10.00 in cash, and they handed you $110,000, would you still think you're entitled to it?

Why does it seem this community is about screwing or scamming anyone so long as it gets you ahead?

Because that's what people do...? Like, all the time, everywhere...

[Jack of Diamonds]

Because that's what people do...? Like, all the time, everywhere...

Would you murder someone just because nobody was there to see or gather evidence?

Or rob an old lady just because you're in the middle of nowhere
and she has $2000 in her purse to buy expensive medicine & there are no cops around

No, that's not what "people do". That's what a wild animal would do.
What do you do with wild animals which can't control their behavior? You put them in cages.

[elggawf]

No, that's not what "people do". That's what a wild animal would do.
What do you do with wild animals which can't control their behavior? You put them in cages.

That's not even true at all - many monkeys and great apes exhibit social structured behavior and they're wild animals. People are just idiots looking for a way to justify their sociopath tendencies, so they say shit like this:

I genuinely think the free market would have wanted me to keep the ~$1M I got for that two thirds of a Bitcoin. I object to MtGox's interventionism!

[Jack of Diamonds]

Chimpanzees and gorillas can have very complex social systems just as humans do.

What do they do with members which keep breaking the system or attempt stealing the resources of other members?
They either expel or kill them. http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474976794596

That's of course a bit extreme for humans (and I genuinely don't advocate it), but I'm saying even they have a system for their own kind that can't control themselves

[MagicalTux]

Xiong Zhuang, I can tell you now that you will not see a penny of that withdrawal since its mostly manually processed and specially after the stuffup.

What may happen is that you would lose that money (you clearly wanted to run with it) and probably have your account locked on mtgox.

We won't lock the account, as nothing was lost. It is an interesting way of showing things. We did a fuck up with this update that didn't go right (we did a dozen during the past month and it's the first update causing a major problem, we have found why and modified the procedures to make sure it won't happen again).

Anyway in this case Xiong Zhuang told us exactly how to get the funds back (cancelling the LR withdraw, thru crediting $2000 to his account, solving the negative balance and setting everything right). There is nothing else for us to do here.

We are auditing any account which got a negative balance following that bug. Yes, Dwolla can be reversed, and yes, we will ask for reversal if someone shows an intent to be evil. AML limits on withdraws prevent us from losing any significant amount, anyway.

[Vod]

Lets be realistic here.
McDonalds would fire the checker for screwing up, and then demand concrete proof from the customer that the customer doesn't have, and then keep the change.

I did retail many many moons ago, and I was taught to put the customers bill on top of the cash drawer, not in it.  Then you count your change and present it.  If the customer says he gave me $100, I can point to the $50 sitting there and say no you didn't.

Once the customer accepts the change and walks away, I put their bill in my cash drawer.  That transaction is committed and could not be reversed.

[Xiong Zhuang]

Xiong Zhuang, I can tell you now that you will not see a penny of that withdrawal since its mostly manually processed and specially after the stuffup.

What may happen is that you would lose that money (you clearly wanted to run with it) and probably have your account locked on mtgox.

We won't lock the account, as nothing was lost. It is an interesting way of showing things. We did a fuck up with this update that didn't go right (we did a dozen during the past month and it's the first update causing a major problem, we have found why and modified the procedures to make sure it won't happen again).

Anyway in this case Xiong Zhuang told us exactly how to get the funds back (cancelling the LR withdraw, thru crediting $2000 to his account, solving the negative balance and setting everything right). There is nothing else for us to do here.

We are auditing any account which got a negative balance following that bug. Yes, Dwolla can be reversed, and yes, we will ask for reversal if someone shows an intent to be evil. AML limits on withdraws prevent us from losing any significant amount, anyway.

Don't tell me that you won't cancel my LR withdraw if I didn't post this topic. If that I will hate myself badly.

[Hawkix]

We won't lock the account, as nothing was lost. It is an interesting way of showing things. We did a fuck up with this update that didn't go right (we did a dozen during the past month and it's the first update causing a major problem, we have found why and modified the procedures to make sure it won't happen again).

Anyway in this case Xiong Zhuang told us exactly how to get the funds back (cancelling the LR withdraw, thru crediting $2000 to his account, solving the negative balance and setting everything right). There is nothing else for us to do here.

We are auditing any account which got a negative balance following that bug. Yes, Dwolla can be reversed, and yes, we will ask for reversal if someone shows an intent to be evil. AML limits on withdraws prevent us from losing any significant amount, anyway.

What if someone had tried that moment to convert his millions of USD into some Bitcoins and immediately withdrew them out of MtGox? Even if 100 BTC would be the limit, its still some money ...

[Clipse]

What if someone had tried that moment to convert his millions of USD into some Bitcoins and immediately withdrew them out of MtGox? Even if 100 BTC would be the limit, its still some money ...

Say what? Convert his USD into bitcoins ? the price per bitcoin went up which means he would have ended up with worthless bitcoins since he paid $11 000 per bitcoin lol

Dont think you quite understood the issue that occured, people got $11 000 per bitcoin thus if you sold bitcoins you could try jippo the system but obviously would get caught and if you bought bitcoins you got screwed out of money from the mtgox system and not real USD from user wallets(which also got correct)

[Hawkix]

At that time, my account got about 5 million USD accounted from some small BTC sale. Later, the MtGox ticker showed price at 14.10 USD per BTC. So, theoretically, I could buy plenty of BTC ... If I wanted.

Perhaps, MtGox had same safety blockage applied. But if not, anyone could rip the BTC out of it.

[Clipse]

At that time, my account got about 5 million USD accounted from some small BTC sale. Later, the MtGox ticker showed price at 14.10 USD per BTC. So, theoretically, I could buy plenty of BTC ... If I wanted.

Perhaps, MtGox had same safety blockage applied. But if not, anyone could rip the BTC out of it.

They picked up the issue as soon as it happened, you would have had to do the trading to BTC and withdrawing it within a few seconds at best.

Remember, as they patched and looked at system the issue occurred thus they could shutdown trading immediately.

[error]

Damn. And I'd had a standing sell order at $5 million, too. Unfortunately I canceled it a while back...