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Author Topic: Bitcoin - how to protect its value  (Read 3408 times)
nightwatch
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February 10, 2011, 10:35:47 PM
 #21

wow sounds like Cryptonomicon
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kiba
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February 10, 2011, 11:00:50 PM
 #22

It's a Neal Stephenson plot device!

marcus_of_augustus
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February 10, 2011, 11:12:34 PM
 #23

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wow sounds like Cryptonomicon

Actually, after the megabanks dissolve into smoking piles of crappy over-clocked IBM hardware and dilettante quants in suits jump out of windows taking corrupt national govt.s pollies with them .... I was thinking more like a "Snowcrash" crossed with "Cryptonomicon" post crypto-currency war type of world ...

grondilu
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February 10, 2011, 11:16:14 PM
 #24

Currencies don't inflate one another.

When Bernanke print USD, he doesn't hurt EUR or JPY
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February 10, 2011, 11:58:01 PM
 #25

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Currencies don't inflate one another.

When Bernanke print USD, he doesn't hurt EUR or JPY

The megabanks are explicitly global in nature now and have been covertly for much longer. When they went bust in 2007 credit market seizure the taxpayers of the world were put on the hook on the order of 10 trillion dollars when national debt was created to bail them out, see Fed. Res. balance sheet for details.  Since there is no way out of the global fiat-digital currency scam and paying taxes into the corrupted system where megabank banksters are raping it out the top, one is as good (and culpable) as the other. An alternative credit digital currency like bitcoin comes along and the whole fiat debt puffball could collapse in favour of unencumbered digital crypto-currencies.

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February 11, 2011, 12:08:20 AM
 #26

I think the problem with your comparison is that Bitcoin is not like gold - you can't create gold but you can create any number of Bitcoin clones and they are just as good as original Bitcoin.
Ruthenium is a metal similar to gold, just as rare and would be just as good as money. Still, only gold is used as a medium of exchange. There is no particular reason for that other than tradition and expectations because gold was first.
bitk
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February 11, 2011, 12:34:07 AM
 #27

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2c/Ruthenium_a_half_bar.jpg/434px-Ruthenium_a_half_bar.jpg
Ruthenium isn't yellow! Tongue
That's a major problem I guess.

Good for us that the bitcoin symbol is gold-yellowish, otherwise we would be in big troubles for the future.

Bitcoin to prepaid phone credit - http://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3620.0
(Italy preferred, but if you are from the rest of the world, PM me and we might find a deal!)
imanikin
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February 11, 2011, 01:35:28 AM
 #28


Ruthenium is a metal similar to gold, just as rare and would be just as good as money. Still, only gold is used as a medium of exchange. There is no particular reason for that other than tradition and expectations because gold was first.


If you actually look at the numbers and do the math, it looks to me that Ruthenium is actually 20-40 times more rare than gold, and its production is 100's of times lower than gold.

Gold was naturally chosen historically as "money", because it was just rare enough among the "precious metals." Given current population and trade volume, gold has become impractical as a medium of exchange also.

It's a hassle to handle even as 1 gram bullion. Calculate how many grams of gold you could give to each member of just the adult population of China, if you used all the estimated worldwide gold reserves. Looks to me like less than 200 grams. That's not to mention all the gold used in jewelry, industry, etc. There would be nothing left for B2B trade, etc.

So, gold didn't become the traditional medium of exchange because it was first; there were certain market forces that made it so. Those same forces removed it as a primary medium of exchange, imho, when population and trade increased. Now, it's just a great value store, and impractical as money.

Seems to me that if superior cryptocurrencies appear, being first will not preserve Bitcoin's value indefinitely.



   

marcus_of_augustus
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February 11, 2011, 01:36:58 AM
 #29

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Ruthenium isn't yellow! Tongue
That's a major problem I guess.

Good for us that the bitcoin symbol is gold-yellowish, otherwise we would be in big troubles for the future.

Lol. Go to the dark side Luke, buy ruthenium.

Maybe the next cryptocoinage will have a silver icon and the network will making them in the 15:1 ratio that silver:gold appears to gravitate towards .... i.e. 315 million silverbitcoins!


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February 11, 2011, 04:10:52 AM
 #30

Then you would see exchanges springing up trading between all the currencies much as they do for everything else.
steken
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February 11, 2011, 06:22:56 AM
 #31


When Bernanke print USD, he doesn't hurt EUR or JPY


Are you really sure about this ?
nightwatch
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February 11, 2011, 06:50:50 AM
 #32


When Bernanke print USD, he doesn't hurt EUR or JPY


Are you really sure about this ?

The reality shows that to keep the economy going if one major currency is devalued all other must be too. Don't know why, probably because it creates a huge imbalance in trade and business competivity.
cryptofo
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February 11, 2011, 08:05:37 AM
 #33

If Google or Facebook created a digital currency they would probably completely wipe Bitcoin out just by creating a market million times bigger than current BTC market.

A friend of mine asked me this the other day.  I think it's important to remind ourselves what the attributes of bitcoin are that make it actually have inherent value and are the reasons why a conglomerate or big brother would not want to touch it with a 10 foot pole.

1.  Transactions are, or at least can be, 100% anonymous
2.  There will only ever be 29 mil ever issued
3.  It is distributed and decentralized


  The big boys (facebook, google, the fed, blah blah etc.) want to control or profit or both.  There is no way that any large organization would or could adopt a bitcoin clone as a model or anything even similar.  Facebook has their credit system they the call a virtual currency (lol),
http://www.facebook.com/help/?page=1038
but I don't think you can sell them or trade them so it's not really a currency but rather a way for you to give them money so it really doesn't count.  Google has their google checkout which I really don't know too much about, but seems to be their answer to paypal.  Paypal on the other hand is the closest thing to a corporately owned digital currency.  We buy paypal dollar credits with our national currency.  Paypal digital currency is of course pegged to the national currency, but we can then buy things with them online, much like we can with bitcoin, admittedly limited at this point, but theoretically exactly the same.  Paypal is however

1.  Not anonymous
2.  Just as suseptable to inflation and helicoptor ben as any fiat currency
3.  100% centralized

Anonymity is not something that is encouraged in the financial industry at least not when it comes to the "little people".  Trust me I work at a bank.  It's also not something the sec or any regulatory system would stand by.  Any profit seeking corporation is going to want to sell their currency to grow the volume to increase their profits and any large entity by definition is not decentralized or distributed or at least not amongst the people.  

It is, to my best understanding, the way that bitcoin is written that makes it so genius genius genius.  I can't think of any way to improve it's design.  At least not to the degree that it would make it obsolete or even worth any less.  If, for instance, a big dog were to step on the scene introducing to the broader general public, "Bitcoin 2 inc." now with a marketing and publicity budget to inform the world on the advantages of an anonymous digital curruncy, insusceptible to inflation and completely decentralized, it would only contribute to the acceptance of an idea I don't think most people have or could wrap their head around yet.  Oh and by the way there is an original bitcoin community that has been establishing itself independently, but pay no mind to the man behind the curtain.  

Bitcoin is something completely new for a completely new era, an era we don't completely understand yet.  Things develop faster than we can understand them.  There was probably a point when someone said "are you stupid, why would I give you my saber tooth tiger coat for a little piece of shiny yellow rock?"

There are other digital currencies out there with different attributes.  OpenTransact, I think will serve to a great degree when it comes to developing local currencies with a hard backing, but bitcoin is unique.  In my opinion it actually resembles some of the great ideas of some of the largest corporations.  Microsoft and Google.  There was a time when people said "why would anyone want a computer in their house?" and "what I don't get it, it's just a search engine?".  Bitcoin is actually a company.  It is an open source, distributed anti-corporation.  It's a company truly owned by the people.  As bitcoin gains in popularity so will the value of the bitcoin.  Bitcoins are the stock and we the people are the stock holders.

If you haven't seen this yet watch it.

RSA-the suprising truth about what motivates us
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc    

      
caveden
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February 11, 2011, 08:18:29 AM
 #34


When Bernanke print USD, he doesn't hurt EUR or JPY


Are you really sure about this ?

The reality shows that to keep the economy going if one major currency is devalued all other must be too. Don't know why, probably because it creates a huge imbalance in trade and business competivity.

That's just due to stupid mercantilist believes of governments worldwide. When the dollar devaluates, they devaluate their own currencies in order to subsidize their exporters (at the expense of the rest of the society, but don't expect them to understand/care).

But what grondilu said is only applicable to national currencies like government currencies, which have their own market. USD doesn't impact EUR because mostly they are not used by the same people. An international alternative to bitcoins might take part of its share if it's really better than bitcoins. Simple clones wouldn't.

18rZYyWcafwD86xvLrfuxWG5xEMMWUtVkL
nightwatch
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February 11, 2011, 08:24:27 AM
 #35

If Google or Facebook created a digital currency they would probably completely wipe Bitcoin out just by creating a market million times bigger than current BTC market.

A friend of mine asked me this the other day.  I think it's important to remind ourselves what the attributes of bitcoin are that make it actually have inherent value and are the reasons why a conglomerate or big brother would not want to touch it with a 10 foot pole.

1.  Transactions are, or at least can be, 100% anonymous
2.  There will only ever be 29 mil ever issued
3.  It is distributed and decentralized


  The big boys (facebook, google, the fed, blah blah etc.) want to control or profit or both.  There is no way that any large organization would or could adopt a bitcoin clone as a model or anything even similar.  Facebook has their credit system they the call a virtual currency (lol),
http://www.facebook.com/help/?page=1038
but I don't think you can sell them or trade them so it's not really a currency but rather a way for you to give them money so it really doesn't count.  Google has their google checkout which I really don't know too much about, but seems to be their answer to paypal.  Paypal on the other hand is the closest thing to a corporately owned digital currency.  We buy paypal dollar credits with our national currency.  Paypal digital currency is of course pegged to the national currency, but we can then buy things with them online, much like we can with bitcoin, admittedly limited at this point, but theoretically exactly the same.  Paypal is however

1.  Not anonymous
2.  Just as suseptable to inflation and helicoptor ben as any fiat currency
3.  100% centralized

Anonymity is not something that is encouraged in the financial industry at least not when it comes to the "little people".  Trust me I work at a bank.  It's also not something the sec or any regulatory system would stand by.  Any profit seeking corporation is going to want to sell their currency to grow the volume to increase their profits and any large entity by definition is not decentralized or distributed or at least not amongst the people.  

It is, to my best understanding, the way that bitcoin is written that makes it so genius genius genius.  I can't think of any way to improve it's design.  At least not to the degree that it would make it obsolete or even worth any less.  If, for instance, a big dog were to step on the scene introducing to the broader general public, "Bitcoin 2 inc." now with a marketing and publicity budget to inform the world on the advantages of an anonymous digital curruncy, insusceptible to inflation and completely decentralized, it would only contribute to the acceptance of an idea I don't think most people have or could wrap their head around yet.  Oh and by the way there is an original bitcoin community that has been establishing itself independently, but pay no mind to the man behind the curtain.  

Bitcoin is something completely new for a completely new era, an era we don't completely understand yet.  Things develop faster than we can understand them.  There was probably a point when someone said "are you stupid, why would I give you my saber tooth tiger coat for a little piece of shiny yellow rock?"

There are other digital currencies out there with different attributes.  OpenTransact, I think will serve to a great degree when it comes to developing local currencies with a hard backing, but bitcoin is unique.  In my opinion it actually resembles some of the great ideas of some of the largest corporations.  Microsoft and Google.  There was a time when people said "why would anyone want a computer in their house?" and "what I don't get it, it's just a search engine?".  Bitcoin is actually a company.  It is an open source, distributed anti-corporation.  It's a company truly owned by the people.  As bitcoin gains in popularity so will the value of the bitcoin.  Bitcoins are the stock and we the people are the stock holders.

If you haven't seen this yet watch it.

RSA-the suprising truth about what motivates us
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6XAPnuFjJc    

      

yes, the idea behind Bitcoin is genius (genial? how to say it in English?) and it has all the properties that an ideal currency should have, being decentralized and escaping any attempts to manipulate or take over by a big enough organization. But this makes it undesirable for the big fish out there, just like gold has very undesirable properties for governments and banks. It makes me wonder if such currency can gain enough acceptance to be considered real money, or if it can survive without acceptance of banks and governments.
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