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Author Topic: Mike Hearn, Foundation's Law & Policy Chair, is pushing blacklists right now  (Read 84322 times)
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November 16, 2013, 01:19:03 AM
 #361

How about we vote him off the foundation?

For an error in judgment, describing a tracking/taint method as a response to tackling crypolocker? No.

Why not?

Because that just seems over-the-top. Giving up the chair in the legal forum should be sufficient. He has done fantastic work for Bitcoin over years.


He should be made an example of. So that no one might suggest any centralization again.
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November 16, 2013, 01:43:55 AM
 #362

How about we vote him off the foundation?

For an error in judgment, describing a tracking/taint method as a response to tackling crypolocker? No.

Why not?

Because that just seems over-the-top. Giving up the chair in the legal forum should be sufficient. He has done fantastic work for Bitcoin over years.


He should be made an example of. So that no one might suggest any centralization again.

To do this who votes and what is the mechanism to vote?

Bitcoin was designed so that it is the miners who vote. If 51% of the miners agree to a rule change, then that rule change happens. Yes pools may become somewhat cetralized, but they are comprised of individuals who can move to different pools.

This is why it is critical for mining to remain comprised of individual miners and not a few centralized operators.
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November 16, 2013, 01:48:30 AM
 #363

How stupid are these people?  Don't they know that every dollar bill has traces of cocaine on it?  They've ALL been used for illegal activity, and yet we trade them around every day.

Still, the more "bad" coins that are taken out of circulation, the more my (hopefully clean) coins will be worth.

The percentages vary, but overall it appears that 90% or more of a sample of US bills tested positive for  cocaine residue. Let's use Mr. Hearn's proposal to "redlist" those bills. When someone attempts to pay with their US bill at a merchant, the merchant scans the serial number of the bill and if cocaine residue shows up on the bill, the consumer has to follow the policy proposed by Mr. Hearn.

Article from 2009
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=cocaine-contaminates-majority-of-american-currency

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cocaine Contaminates Majority of U.S. Currency

And it's not just the U.S.: Canada and Brazil have a preponderance of the drug powder on their bills, too

By David Biello

U.S. banknotes dollar bills

COKED UP CURRENCY: An average of 90 percent of 234 U.S. banknotes of varying denominations tested positive for traces of cocaine in a new study. Image: © American Chemical Society

    The Best Science Writing Online 2012

    Showcasing more than fifty of the most provocative, original, and significant online essays from 2011, The Best Science Writing Online 2012 will change the way...

    Read More »

For cocaine users, a rolled up $20 bill may be the most convenient tool for snorting the powder form of the drug. Or so it would seem from a new analysis of 234 banknotes from 18 U.S. cities that found cocaine on 90 percent of the bills tested.

Perhaps that's not surprising given that the U.S. Office of National Drug Control Policy reports that more than 2 million Americans used cocaine in 2007, which has been linked to ill effects ranging from debilitating addiction to heart attacks. The United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, for its part, reported in the same year that 6 million Americans admit using cocaine annually, consuming a total of as much as 457 metric tons in a year.

"Cocaine is a powerfully addictive stimulant and one of the most commonly abused illicit drugs in the world," says chemist Yuegang Zuo of the University of Massachusetts Dartmouth, who conducted the tests and presented the findings today at the biannual meeting of the American Chemical Society, which is taking place in Washington, D.C. That city ranked highest in the survey—95 percent of the sampled bills there bore cocaine contamination—along with Baltimore, Boston and Detroit. Salt Lake City had the lowest average levels of contamination. "The examination of cocaine contamination on paper money can provide objective and timely epidemiological information about cocaine abuse in individual communities," Zuo argues.

What might be more surprising is the fact that the percentage of contaminated bills seems to be rising; just two years ago, Zuo did a similar study that found cocaine on only 67 percent of banknotes in Massachusetts. "It is too early to draw a conclusion about why," Zuo says. "The economic downturn may partly contribute to the jump."

But the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) notes that other measures, such as pretrial urine samples from defendants accused of crimes, show that drug use, at least in the D.C. area, has gone down slightly—only 29 percent of adult arrestees had traces of cocaine in their urine in the first six months of 2009, the lowest level since 1985. "We know that cocaine prices have gone up significantly in the last two years, which usually deters use of that drug," says special agent Melissa Bell of the Washington, D.C., division office of the DEA. "Junkies go on to use something cheaper."

Levels of cocaine ranged from .006 micrograms to more than 1,240 micrograms—the equivalent of 50 grains of sand—on U.S. bills, and $5, $10 and $20 bills on average carried more contamination than $1 or $100 bills.

Zuo and his colleagues also tested banknotes from Brazil, Canada, China and Japan, and found that Asians appear to use the drug less—only 20 percent of the 112 Chinese renminbi notes tested had traces, and only 12 percent of 16 Japanese yen notes tested bore the drug.

But Canadians seem to be just as fond and, perhaps, a bit sloppier in their consumption or dealing. More than 2,350 micrograms of cocaine were found on some of the Canadian bills, 85 percent of which had some level of contamination, while 80 percent of Brazilian reals also bore traces of the drug.

Whether this means drug use is on the rise or that ATMs and other bulk cash-handling machines—where one contaminated bill can spread powder to many others—are ever more ubiquitous cannot be discerned. "It is still difficult to tell quantitatively how much is due to primary contamination, such as during a drug deal or [use], and how much is due to secondary contamination, such as interaction between contaminated and uncontaminated bills," Zuo says. "Both may contribute ... [but] it seems clear that the banknotes containing 1,240 micrograms of cocaine were used directly during a drug deal or uptake [drug use]."

Previous studies, stretching as far back as 1987, have found varying levels of cocaine contamination, some even higher than the new finding. But Zuo is the first to analyze foreign banknotes for contamination and the first to employ a new method of gas chromatography, which detects the chemical signature of the drug without damaging the actual money, to do the analysis.

The finding might complicate an anti-drug dealing tactic used by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and other enforcement agencies, Zuo says. In some cases, the FBI compares the levels of cocaine contamination on seized bills to levels found on bills in general circulation, treating this as evidence. "Sometimes [drug dealers] use these studies to try to get their money back when we seize it," Bell notes. But the DEA's drug-sniffing dogs are not actually detecting cocaine; they are sensing a chemical used in its manufacture that dissipates more quickly. "So they don't get their money back," Bell says.

Regardless, it would seem, according to this research, that C-notes are not as popular with drug dealers (or users) as perhaps popularly depicted. "You rarely see them breaking out the hundreds unless they're buying kilos," Bell adds. "The user on the street is going to be breaking out the five, ten or twenty."


 
 
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November 16, 2013, 02:31:22 AM
 #364

What bothers me is if a scheme like redlisting was implemented, you couldn't get it cleaned up as easy as calling up and saying "I'm Mike Herns, make mine white..."
You would be calling a Law Enforcement Agency.
You would need to prove who you are - SS# or such.
Then our Ameri-centric omnipotent government will come back to haunt you...

Dear taxpayer, 3 years ago when you sold your $30,000 car for bitcoins, it was worth $200usd
1 year ago when you put a down payment on your home with these bitcoins they were worth $400usd.
It appears that you did not include this profit as capital gains on your tax return..."
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November 16, 2013, 02:46:13 AM
 #365

What bothers me is if a scheme like redlisting was implemented, you couldn't get it cleaned up as easy as calling up and saying "I'm Mike Herns, make mine white..."
You would be calling a Law Enforcement Agency.
You would need to prove who you are - SS# or such.
Then our Ameri-centric omnipotent government will come back to haunt you...

Dear taxpayer, 3 years ago when you sold your $30,000 car for bitcoins, it was worth $200usd
1 year ago when you put a down payment on your home with these bitcoins they were worth $400usd.
It appears that you did not include this profit as capital gains on your tax return..."


Why couldn't they just accept your digital signature as proof of identity?
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November 16, 2013, 02:59:05 AM
 #366

You guys seem to think regulation is some kind of option. It is not. There will be regulation no matter how you feel about it. If you feel that destroys bitcoin, then sell yours to a grown up.
Of course regulation is going to happen.

That's why we should work to nullify it via code - design our systems to be immune to regulatory attack just like the filesharing space did successfully.

I personally oppose most regulation and use all manor of privacy software, however once you involve fiat money you run into existing law. There is the rub. You don't "own" dollars, you have the right to use them. And there are all sorts of laws about how you may use them.

We could choose to not engage with government, but what would happen? Countries around the world would try banning it's use and eventually it may be seen as simply a tool for crime. I think it is much wiser to develop our own approach to address their concerns and shape future regulation.

I support anyone's right to disagree. Anyone could form a group of like-minded peers and make an attempt to give bitcoin a special legal status that can disregard laws. A status that allows you to receive stolen goods or transfer money around the world with no need to obey international agreements. But I don't think it will work.    

EDIT: @NorbyTheGeek   Well said sir.

We do need to self regulate. We have to do it in the way which preserves the most freedom and privacy.
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November 16, 2013, 03:02:54 AM
 #367

blacklisting/redlisting will destroy Bitcoin.

the real question is, can it even been done?

It could - but within a short period of time most coins would end up being some shade of gray/pink so it would accomplish nothing in the end except possibly as bad PR for bitcoin since everything would be traceable to some kind of questionable transaction at some point in history.

If it were such a great idea we'd all be checking serial numbers on our banknotes - just in case they were from a bank heist xx years ago.

A far better solution would be to just track down criminals and prosecute them. Just like any other crime using any other currency.




So we need to build tools to help facilitate that without tracking and marking the coins themselves. The Bitcoin identity protocol is a start. Keyhotee also may solve the problem.

Basically reputation networks which can be tracked back to a real world identity if there is a warrant. Refuse to trade with or accept anyone who doesn't have a certain number or reputation points or who isn't part of the right reputation network.

Criminals will still exist but they wont have an easy time doing business with people who aren't criminals if they have no reputation for doing normal business.
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November 16, 2013, 03:08:37 AM
 #368

How stupid are these people?  Don't they know that every dollar bill has traces of cocaine on it?  They've ALL been used for illegal activity, and yet we trade them around every day.

Still, the more "bad" coins that are taken out of circulation, the more my (hopefully clean) coins will be worth.

The percentages vary, but overall it appears that 90% or more of a sample of US bills tested positive for  cocaine residue. Let's use Mr. Hearn's proposal to "redlist" those bills. When someone attempts to pay with their US bill at a merchant, the merchant scans the serial number of the bill and if cocaine residue shows up on the bill, the consumer has to follow the policy proposed by Mr. Hearn.

Article from 2009
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=cocaine-contaminates-majority-of-american-currency

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cocaine Contaminates Majority of U.S. Currency

And it's not just the U.S.: Canada and Brazil have a preponderance of the drug powder on their bills, too

By David Biello

U.S. banknotes dollar bills

COKED UP CURRENCY: An average of 90 percent of 234 U.S. banknotes of varying denominations tested positive for traces of cocaine in a new study. Image: © American Chemical Society

    The Best Science Writing Online 2012

    Showcasing more than fifty of the most provocative, original, and significant online essays from 2011, The Best Science Writing Online 2012 will change the way...

    Read More »

For cocaine users, a rolled up $20 bill may be the most convenient tool for snorting the powder form of the drug. Or so it would seem from a new analysis of 234 banknotes from 18 U.S. cities that found cocaine on 90 percent of the bills tested.

Perhaps that's not surprising given that the U.S. Office of National Drug Control Policy reports that more than 2 million Americans used cocaine in 2007, which has been linked to ill effects ranging from debilitating addiction to heart attacks. The United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, for its part, reported in the same year that 6 million Americans admit using cocaine annually, consuming a total of as much as 457 metric tons in a year.

"Cocaine is a powerfully addictive stimulant and one of the most commonly abused illicit drugs in the world," says chemist Yuegang Zuo of the University of Massachusetts Dartmouth, who conducted the tests and presented the findings today at the biannual meeting of the American Chemical Society, which is taking place in Washington, D.C. That city ranked highest in the survey—95 percent of the sampled bills there bore cocaine contamination—along with Baltimore, Boston and Detroit. Salt Lake City had the lowest average levels of contamination. "The examination of cocaine contamination on paper money can provide objective and timely epidemiological information about cocaine abuse in individual communities," Zuo argues.

What might be more surprising is the fact that the percentage of contaminated bills seems to be rising; just two years ago, Zuo did a similar study that found cocaine on only 67 percent of banknotes in Massachusetts. "It is too early to draw a conclusion about why," Zuo says. "The economic downturn may partly contribute to the jump."

But the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA) notes that other measures, such as pretrial urine samples from defendants accused of crimes, show that drug use, at least in the D.C. area, has gone down slightly—only 29 percent of adult arrestees had traces of cocaine in their urine in the first six months of 2009, the lowest level since 1985. "We know that cocaine prices have gone up significantly in the last two years, which usually deters use of that drug," says special agent Melissa Bell of the Washington, D.C., division office of the DEA. "Junkies go on to use something cheaper."

Levels of cocaine ranged from .006 micrograms to more than 1,240 micrograms—the equivalent of 50 grains of sand—on U.S. bills, and $5, $10 and $20 bills on average carried more contamination than $1 or $100 bills.

Zuo and his colleagues also tested banknotes from Brazil, Canada, China and Japan, and found that Asians appear to use the drug less—only 20 percent of the 112 Chinese renminbi notes tested had traces, and only 12 percent of 16 Japanese yen notes tested bore the drug.

But Canadians seem to be just as fond and, perhaps, a bit sloppier in their consumption or dealing. More than 2,350 micrograms of cocaine were found on some of the Canadian bills, 85 percent of which had some level of contamination, while 80 percent of Brazilian reals also bore traces of the drug.

Whether this means drug use is on the rise or that ATMs and other bulk cash-handling machines—where one contaminated bill can spread powder to many others—are ever more ubiquitous cannot be discerned. "It is still difficult to tell quantitatively how much is due to primary contamination, such as during a drug deal or [use], and how much is due to secondary contamination, such as interaction between contaminated and uncontaminated bills," Zuo says. "Both may contribute ... [but] it seems clear that the banknotes containing 1,240 micrograms of cocaine were used directly during a drug deal or uptake [drug use]."

Previous studies, stretching as far back as 1987, have found varying levels of cocaine contamination, some even higher than the new finding. But Zuo is the first to analyze foreign banknotes for contamination and the first to employ a new method of gas chromatography, which detects the chemical signature of the drug without damaging the actual money, to do the analysis.

The finding might complicate an anti-drug dealing tactic used by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and other enforcement agencies, Zuo says. In some cases, the FBI compares the levels of cocaine contamination on seized bills to levels found on bills in general circulation, treating this as evidence. "Sometimes [drug dealers] use these studies to try to get their money back when we seize it," Bell notes. But the DEA's drug-sniffing dogs are not actually detecting cocaine; they are sensing a chemical used in its manufacture that dissipates more quickly. "So they don't get their money back," Bell says.

Regardless, it would seem, according to this research, that C-notes are not as popular with drug dealers (or users) as perhaps popularly depicted. "You rarely see them breaking out the hundreds unless they're buying kilos," Bell adds. "The user on the street is going to be breaking out the five, ten or twenty."

Only criminals use cash. The rest use plastic. Wink
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November 16, 2013, 03:17:36 AM
 #369

Only criminals use cash. The rest use plastic. Wink

In actual fact, the highest tiers of criminality just use the regular, recorded banking system. They evade law enforcement agencies through being connected to corrupt high-level banking types, as well as to corrupt politicians. We live in a world of at least 2 prominent cases of city mayors that have been linked to crack cocaine use. Try to take less lessons on reality from TV, movies and the stereotypes they both propagate throughout typical chat.

Only low-level criminals use cash exclusively.

Vires in numeris
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November 16, 2013, 06:46:32 AM
 #370

Only criminals use cash. The rest use plastic. Wink

In actual fact, the highest tiers of criminality just use the regular, recorded banking system. They evade law enforcement agencies through being connected to corrupt high-level banking types, as well as to corrupt politicians. We live in a world of at least 2 prominent cases of city mayors that have been linked to crack cocaine use. Try to take less lessons on reality from TV, movies and the stereotypes they both propagate throughout typical chat.

Only low-level criminals use cash exclusively.

Not quite they all agree to retire at the same age
Write themselves off the books
And give the company to the younger generation
The income they earn is then just from the interest of their legal investments Wink

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November 16, 2013, 07:51:18 AM
 #371

Only criminals use cash. The rest use plastic. Wink

In actual fact, the highest tiers of criminality just use the regular, recorded banking system. They evade law enforcement agencies through being connected to corrupt high-level banking types, as well as to corrupt politicians. We live in a world of at least 2 prominent cases of city mayors that have been linked to crack cocaine use. Try to take less lessons on reality from TV, movies and the stereotypes they both propagate throughout typical chat.

Only low-level criminals use cash exclusively.
Well said. This is correct. What you see in the TV is probably what's happening around the world, secretly.

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November 16, 2013, 04:57:37 PM
 #372

Bitcoin was designed so that it is the miners who vote. If 51% of the miners agree to a rule change, then that rule change happens. Yes pools may become somewhat cetralized, but they are comprised of individuals who can move to different pools.

So? How to do this? When the Foundation is building shit, for example putting something in the official client that the community doesnt like, and i believe the foundation practically controls the client because the coders are in the foundation too, then how should the 51% react?

And would 51% react at all? Or simply download the newest client and live with it?

But even when... so how to fork? I mean the official client has no functionality included to fork the chain isnt it? But all miners and all wallets need to switch to the fork... otherwise they still would use the official chain.

Please ALWAYS contact me through bitcointalk pm before sending someone coins.
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November 16, 2013, 05:12:23 PM
 #373

Bitcoin was designed so that it is the miners who vote. If 51% of the miners agree to a rule change, then that rule change happens. Yes pools may become somewhat cetralized, but they are comprised of individuals who can move to different pools.

So? How to do this? When the Foundation is building shit, for example putting something in the official client that the community doesnt like, and i believe the foundation practically controls the client because the coders are in the foundation too, then how should the 51% react?

And would 51% react at all? Or simply download the newest client and live with it?

But even when... so how to fork? I mean the official client has no functionality included to fork the chain isnt it? But all miners and all wallets need to switch to the fork... otherwise they still would use the official chain.

This isn't even remotely close to being true.  Miners do not vote on rule changes.

No one, not the developers, not the foundation, not the miners, not anyone, can force a rule change on you.

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November 16, 2013, 05:15:05 PM
 #374

Bitcoin was designed so that it is the miners who vote. If 51% of the miners agree to a rule change, then that rule change happens. Yes pools may become somewhat cetralized, but they are comprised of individuals who can move to different pools.

So? How to do this? When the Foundation is building shit, for example putting something in the official client that the community doesnt like, and i believe the foundation practically controls the client because the coders are in the foundation too, then how should the 51% react?

And would 51% react at all? Or simply download the newest client and live with it?

But even when... so how to fork? I mean the official client has no functionality included to fork the chain isnt it? But all miners and all wallets need to switch to the fork... otherwise they still would use the official chain.

This isn't even remotely close to being true.  Miners do not vote on rule changes.

No one, not the developers, not the foundation, not the miners, not anyone, can force a rule change on you.

Thats the theory. So how can this practically work?

Please ALWAYS contact me through bitcointalk pm before sending someone coins.
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November 16, 2013, 06:26:59 PM
 #375



This isn't even remotely close to being true.  Miners do not vote on rule changes.


One of the recent videos Vessenes in one of his public talks said people should mine because it allows them to vote on protocol changes. 

Kill all (centralized?) mining pools and that might be true. Right now it's like the fake democracy that plagues most western countries. 5 or 6 clowns to choose from with only 2 having a real chance of winning. Pick your poison.
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November 16, 2013, 07:34:16 PM
 #376



This isn't even remotely close to being true.  Miners do not vote on rule changes.


One of the recent videos Vessenes in one of his public talks said people should mine because it allows them to vote on protocol changes. 

Vessenes is correct in practice, and somewhat correct in theory. SPV clients, which many expect the majority of Bitcoin users will use, do no validation of transactions, leaving the protocol rules up to miners to decide by majority vote.

In practice even users of full clients can be forced to follow whatever protocol rules miners decide upon, because without a majority of miners the blockchain isn't secure.

Now would the people with mining hardware make a protocol change that the economic majority were opposed too? If they did, what would happen? We don't really know - that's a political, sociological and economic question, not a technical question.

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November 16, 2013, 09:18:50 PM
Last edit: November 16, 2013, 09:19:19 PM by Raoul Duke
 #377

Quote
Satoshi would neither have proposed nor supported any form of black/red listing.

The determination of what constitutes illegal activity and enforcement thereof is in the realm of national governments, not payment systems. And certainly not a payment system that has no borders or national affiliation.

Each country has laws and mechanisms to deal with what it considers to be illegal. Bitcoin does not belong to any nation, and definitely not to any single foundation, regardless of what it calls itself.

Bitcoin belongs to its user-base alone, no one else can or should speak for it.


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November 16, 2013, 09:21:35 PM
 #378

And for the last time I don't give a fuck about Bitcoin's legal status, and neither should anyone else. In fact, we should assume that's illegal and make sure our infrastructure is robust enough that it doesn't matter.

Engrave this in stone. Somewhere stony.

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November 16, 2013, 09:24:58 PM
 #379

And for the last time I don't give a fuck about Bitcoin's legal status, and neither should anyone else. In fact, we should assume that's illegal and make sure our infrastructure is robust enough that it doesn't matter.

Engrave this in stone. Somewhere stony.

Being simply ignorant of all these changes will end you nowhere.
You can bury your head in the sand and pretend nothing happens, until your pretty ostrich ass is fucked hard.


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November 16, 2013, 10:17:40 PM
 #380

The Bitcoin Foundation: Because if there's one thing Satoshi Nakamoto approved and endorsed, it was private forums protected by pay walls participated in by easily identifiable individuals supporting institutional bureaucracy and false authority to the detriment of all bitcoin stakeholders.

He would be so proud.

Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
Visit www.thevenusproject.com and www.theZeitgeistMovement.com.
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