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Author Topic: The price of gas is still 20 cents, in 90% silver dimes.  (Read 6623 times)
MoonShadow
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August 18, 2011, 02:06:33 PM
 #61


Not really.  Mostly it means highly liquid investments, such as money markets.  That said, the 'cash' position of any particular corporation; or even all of them taken together, is only part of the equation.  You have to consider their debts as well.  Although most large corporations are net positive, they aren't by much.  They tend to own each others' debts via money markets, which are basicly mutual funds for corporate bonds.  This is very similar to how the banks all seem to owe each other money.  The idea that there is corporate cash sitting on the sidelines, or even private investor cash, waiting for the right moment to jump into the market is a sad myth.  That money doesn't, for the most part, actually exist.  And what doesn't exist can't be traded for gold.

Again you've sidestepped the quesiton.

No, I didn't.  You just didn't understand it.
Quote


As stated above, mostly because it doesn't really exist.  And for that which does exist, much of it is invested in bullion, either directly or indirectly via the 'paper' metal funds. 

Claim not evidenced.  Citation required.
I don't feel obliged to provide evidence to you.  You wouldn't accept anything I provided anyway.  You just want to see me expend time and effort in a futile effort.  If anyone besides yourself actually cared, I might consider it.  Otherwise, google is your friend.
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With value levels at the top of the corporate food chain, it would be unprofessional for the CFO to invest all of the net 'cash' of the company in any single commodity, no matter how wise that particular investment might be.


Totally contradicts your statement that gold and silver are the ultimate stores of value.  If that claim was true, it would be criminal to NOT store all the company's excess cash in gold and silver.

I don't think you understand what is going on.  If gold were the ultimate store of value, it'd be worth something like $1700 per ounce!  Just because something is the best choice overall, (and historicly) doesn't mean that it's still the best choice for a particular person or corporation.  A company that has a lot of production inputs in oil or steel would be wise to invest reserves into those commodities, by either futures contracts, storage facilities or outright purchase of companies that produce those commodities.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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AyeYo
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August 18, 2011, 04:42:13 PM
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The same tune just keeps playing over and over again... sidestep sidestep sidestep, avoid avoid avoid... sing it with me!


So you refuse to answer my question, you refuse to provide evidence to support your bold claim, and you continue to contradict yourself by saying gold and silver are the best stores of value but companies choose cash as their value store of choice because gold and silver are not the best stores of value.


Just to recap, the question is: why do major corporations not convert their cash stores into gold?  

This has nothing to do with investments in oil and steel, we're talking about CASH RESERVES AND VALUE STORE, not investments.  If gold and silver are THE BEST and MOST STABLE stores of value (which is exactly you claim) then it would be absolutely criminal for any responsible money manager to not take full advantage of them with every last penny of reserve cash.

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August 19, 2011, 12:51:08 AM
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MOPEDE TIME!

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August 19, 2011, 03:39:36 AM
 #64

The same tune just keeps playing over and over again... sidestep sidestep sidestep, avoid avoid avoid... sing it with me!


So you refuse to answer my question, you refuse to provide evidence to support your bold claim, and you continue to contradict yourself by saying gold and silver are the best stores of value but companies choose cash as their value store of choice because gold and silver are not the best stores of value.


Yes, I do refuse to play your game.

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Just to recap, the question is: why do major corporations not convert their cash stores into gold?  


And a summary of my answer...

Some do, some don't.  We can't really know to what degree that those who do, do so; nor can we know if those that we don't think do, actually don't.  For either of us to speculate on which do or do not, would be a particularly futile form of mental masturbation.  Again, I'm not willing to play in the dirt with you.  Not again.

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This has nothing to do with investments in oil and steel, we're talking about CASH RESERVES AND VALUE STORE, not investments.


There is no defining distinction.  Not one that can be agreed upon by all players, anyway.  The differences are both personal to the observer and temporal.

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 If gold and silver are THE BEST and MOST STABLE stores of value (which is exactly you claim)


In general, and over long periods, yes.  Local, and near term conditions can render such a statement overly broad, and thus false for a particular set of conditions.  Not knowing any particulars, or not caring enough to do the research, any particular individual investor (saver) or company is likely to do as well or better with gold than anything else.  However, there are many companies with enough 'cash' to manage that hiring a finance manager to do the research is worthwhile.  This is one reason that companys might not (again, we can't really know what they do if they don't really want to tell us) invest liquid reserves into gold while the general statement that gold is history's overall greatest store of value remains true.  Another possible reason is that said finance manager is, in fact, criminally irresponsible and his employer simply doesn't understand that (yet).  Bernie Maddof was considered one of the greatest investment gurus in the country up until a few years ago.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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August 19, 2011, 12:46:40 PM
 #65

Some do, some don't.  We can't really know to what degree that those who do, do so; nor can we know if those that we don't think do, actually don't.  For either of us to speculate on which do or do not, would be a particularly futile form of mental masturbation.  Again, I'm not willing to play in the dirt with you.  Not again.

You don't have to speculate.  You claim has now change to: "some do, some don't".  Provide a sitation for that claim.


I know damn well they don't and I don't have to speculate because I can simply look at the publically available financial statements.  Gold and silver are NOT included in cash figures, therefore money in cash is money NOT in gold and silver.





There is no defining distinction.  Not one that can be agreed upon by all players, anyway.  The differences are both personal to the observer and temporal.


There's absolutely a defining distriction and if you knew even one iota about accounting you'd know exactly what that defining distinction is: liquidity.

Corporate paper can be offed in a matter of minutes through totally electronic means with little change in value.  Oil and steel require massive infrastructure and physical containment areas.  They require finding scarce buyers for the large quantities and slow transportation.  Physical investments are NOT liquid which is, again, why gold and silver are NOT part of the "cash" figure.



This is one reason that companys might not (again, we can't really know what they do if they don't really want to tell us) invest liquid reserves into gold while the general statement that gold is history's overall greatest store of value remains true. 


Boils down to: gold is the best store of value, but it might not be the best store of value.

Got it.


I'll let you in a little secret.  Large corporations do not hold their cash reserves in gold because gold is NOT a good store of value.  Gold is a speculative investment that has a history of sharp rises and falls based on panic situations.  Gold does well when times are bad and does terrible when times are good.  It is not a measure of absolute value; it is merely a measure of fear.

Enjoying the dose of reality or getting a laugh out of my posts? Feel free to toss me a penny or two, everyone else seems to be doing it! 1Kn8NqvbCC83zpvBsKMtu4sjso5PjrQEu1
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August 19, 2011, 12:48:45 PM
 #66

I wouldn't trade my silver dollar for five gallons of gas, I'll tell you that.  Also a nickel is now worth six cents and will be soon made of zinc.  Right now they're 25% nickel and 75% copper.  Collecting nickels is a risk free metals play, but where do you put em all?
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August 20, 2011, 12:16:17 AM
 #67

Some do, some don't.  We can't really know to what degree that those who do, do so; nor can we know if those that we don't think do, actually don't.  For either of us to speculate on which do or do not, would be a particularly futile form of mental masturbation.  Again, I'm not willing to play in the dirt with you.  Not again.

You don't have to speculate.  You claim has now change to: "some do, some don't".  Provide a sitation for that claim.


I have.

Quote

I know damn well they don't and I don't have to speculate because I can simply look at the publically available financial statements.  Gold and silver are NOT included in cash figures, therefore money in cash is money NOT in gold and silver.


You seem to assume that the publicly available financial statements honestly reflect reality.  Any rational review of the past statements from such corporations such as GM, Enron and half of the Fortune 500 should expose the lie in this belief for even yourself.  As for gold not being listed as cash, this is true, if it's listed at all.  However, generally speaking anything that the Powers that be (tm) consider to be a "cash equivalent"; such as money markets and government bonds (and basicly anything else with a highly active secondary trade market, such as oil futures within certain constraints) can be reported upon such summary statements as "cash reserves" even though they most certainly are not sitting on cash.  That cash is already back out in the market, because the finance managers don't want to be in a true cash position any more than anyone else does in an inflationary environment.

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There is no defining distinction.  Not one that can be agreed upon by all players, anyway.  The differences are both personal to the observer and temporal.


There's absolutely a defining distriction and if you knew even one iota about accounting you'd know exactly what that defining distinction is: liquidity.


Corporate paper can be offed in a matter of minutes through totally electronic means with little change in value.  Oil and steel require massive infrastructure and physical containment areas. 


Those facilities can, and generally are, provided by the oil companies as part of the futures contracts.  Thus oil and steel can be bought and sold as easily as corporate bonds, and thus are liquid assets.  I can buy a futures contract for vastly more oil than I can actually do anything with, with a built in delivery date three months out, and sell it to a refinery (or anyone else) two days before delivery confirmation.

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They require finding scarce buyers for the large quantities and slow transportation.  Physical investments are NOT liquid which is, again, why gold and silver are NOT part of the "cash" figure.


As noted above, yes they are liquid enough to be considered as part of the 'cash reserve' figure in a summary financial statement, if the trading of such commodities is not a fundamental part of the corporation's core business model.  You really should try this thing called Google, it's your friend.  If you work in this field, I feel sorry for your childrens' future.
Quote
This is one reason that companys might not (again, we can't really know what they do if they don't really want to tell us) invest liquid reserves into gold while the general statement that gold is history's overall greatest store of value remains true. 


Boils down to: gold is the best store of value, but it might not be the best store of value.

Got it.

This seems like a great place for a quote from a recent Wiskey & Gunpowder article (commodities traders, Wiskey & Gunpowder, get it?)

"Oh dear. The gold price in dollars is volatile because the US dollar is volatile. An ounce of gold has almost always bought you a nice suit at any time in history. The volatility in the gold/dollar exchange rate is all on the dollar’s end. And that’s because the supply of dollars is always increasing. Also, the futures exchanges have been pretty active boosting margin requirements on gold contracts. That’s made for some larger-than-normal price moves. But the value? Rock steady over time, baby.

And that’s the point. Gold isn’t really an investment. It’s money. And it’s money that holds value well over time. You only worry about capital gains if you’re investing in gold. If you’re buying money, you’re more focused on preserving purchasing power."

http://whiskeyandgunpowder.com/you-can%e2%80%99t-eat-asset-allocation-either/
Quote


I'll let you in a little secret.  Large corporations do not hold their cash reserves in gold because gold is NOT a good store of value.  Gold is a speculative investment that has a history of sharp rises and falls based on panic situations.  Gold does well when times are bad and does terrible when times are good.  It is not a measure of absolute value; it is merely a measure of fear.

Yeah, things are going to get bad in the next couple of years.  I don't think you're going to make it.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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August 20, 2011, 12:44:30 AM
 #68

You seem to assume that the publicly available financial statements honestly reflect reality.  Any rational review of the past statements from such corporations such as GM, Enron and half of the Fortune 500 should expose the lie in this belief for even yourself. 

Again again, your lack of accounting knowledge shows.  Enron didn't lie.  GM definitely didn't lie.  Half the Fortune 500 companies don't lie.

Enron used created accounting that isn't allowed anymore.  It wasn't lies, it just took an intelligent person knowing what they're looking for to find out what condition the company was actually in.  Everyone was too busy being greedy and getting rich off the stock that no one gave enough of a shit to give the financials any more than a quick glance - not at all unlike the Madoff scheme.

GM didn't lie, they just sucked.  Everyone knew and acknowledged they sucked except the management, which is why they went down the shitter.  There was no false financial statements involved.

Get your facts straight before attempting to BS.





Those facilities can, and generally are, provided by the oil companies as part of the futures contracts.  Thus oil and steel can be bought and sold as easily as corporate bonds, and thus are liquid assets.  I can buy a futures contract for vastly more oil than I can actually do anything with, with a built in delivery date three months out, and sell it to a refinery (or anyone else) two days before delivery confirmation.


Holding futures contracts with absolutely no intent of taking delivery != holding physical oil.  That type of activity is used for hedging and doesn't have a goddamn thing to do with what you were talking about.  Keep trying to rationalize it though, if you travel down enough irrelevant roads you might be able to salavage your grossly incorrect original statement.



As noted above, yes they are liquid enough to be considered as part of the 'cash reserve' figure in a summary financial statement, if the trading of such commodities is not a fundamental part of the corporation's core business model. 


See above.  Contracts for the purpose of hedging are not physical assets.  Physical assets are not liquid.




This seems like a great place for a quote from a recent Wiskey & Gunpowder article (commodities traders, Wiskey & Gunpowder, get it?)

"Oh dear. The gold price in dollars is volatile because the US dollar is volatile. An ounce of gold has almost always bought you a nice suit at any time in history.


Good thing I bought a suit last month, because their prices have shot up over $300 since then.   Roll Eyes


The gold/suit example is the most ridiculous, not to mention untrue, (and most often used by the gold bugs) of all.  I didn't realize that suits were the best (or even a good) reference for comparative value.  Someone tell the Fed to stop using a large basket of goods to calculate CPI and just use the average price of a suit.

Enjoying the dose of reality or getting a laugh out of my posts? Feel free to toss me a penny or two, everyone else seems to be doing it! 1Kn8NqvbCC83zpvBsKMtu4sjso5PjrQEu1
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August 20, 2011, 02:47:22 AM
 #69

You seem to assume that the publicly available financial statements honestly reflect reality.  Any rational review of the past statements from such corporations such as GM, Enron and half of the Fortune 500 should expose the lie in this belief for even yourself.  

Again again, your lack of accounting knowledge shows.  Enron didn't lie.  GM definitely didn't lie.  Half the Fortune 500 companies don't lie.


I didn't say that they lied.  Don't try and put words in my mouth.  I said that their financial statements don't reflect the reality.  A lie implies the intent to deceive, which I don't believe that most corporate auditors participate in.  They simply don't know all the details themselves, because those individuals within the corporation that oversee those datasets have many incentives (personal, professional and political) to not share them.  The financial statements often don't reflect reality, in part, because you believe that you can interpret them.  But you can't, and neither can I.  No one really can, outside of the insiders who helped to create them.  They exist to blow sunshine up the skirts of regulators and mutual fund managers alike, and they work very well at this.  The only detail of any value that I've ever been able to grok from any of those statements is, whenever those things are all sunshine and happiness, it's often because the dark clouds are so dark that even the insiders don't have a viable avoidance stragedy and are afraid to put it into ink for fear of making it too real.  I exited from a strong position in GE common stock, based mostly on the overly optimistic annual report, the Thursday prior to a rumor about the sale of GE core manufacturing plants (such as Louisville Appliance Park) sent the stock price from over $30 to $12 over the following several weeks around May of 2008.  That one annual report saved me quite a tidy sum.  It's what those financial statements don't say that is the most valuable.

Quote
Enron used created accounting that isn't allowed anymore.


They also used creative accounting that most certainly still is allowed.  Encouraged, in fact.  Feel free to search for the term, "Marked to market accounting" and compare that to what is actually allowed.

Quote
It wasn't lies, it just took an intelligent person knowing what they're looking for to find out what condition the company was actually in.  Everyone was too busy being greedy and getting rich off the stock that no one gave enough of a shit to give the financials any more than a quick glance - not at all unlike the Madoff scheme.

That is exactly the point.  Enron was an extreme example of the practice, but they did it because they were a company in decline, and they knew it.  What they did, whether it's 'legal' or not, is still standard practice with regard to public reports.  The companies that are doing well, have no incentive to resort to such actions; but because some reports cannot be trusted at face value, the rational investor cannot trust any such reports at face value.  If, for no other reason, he is not an insider and cannot possiblely know when a viable company has crossed the rubicon headed for ultimate failure.

Quote

GM didn't lie, they just sucked.  Everyone knew and acknowledged they sucked except the management, which is why they went down the shitter.  There was no false financial statements involved.

Get your facts straight before attempting to BS.


Get your's straight before calling someone else a liar.  Don't forget who you are talking to, either.  You continue to express your "opinions", about my character and my viewpoints, by my own leave.  I will only suffer such abuse for so long before you cease to have a vioce at all.

Quote

Those facilities can, and generally are, provided by the oil companies as part of the futures contracts.  Thus oil and steel can be bought and sold as easily as corporate bonds, and thus are liquid assets.  I can buy a futures contract for vastly more oil than I can actually do anything with, with a built in delivery date three months out, and sell it to a refinery (or anyone else) two days before delivery confirmation.


Holding futures contracts with absolutely no intent of taking delivery != holding physical oil.  That type of activity is used for hedging and doesn't have a goddamn thing to do with what you were talking about.  Keep trying to rationalize it though, if you travel down enough irrelevant roads you might be able to salavage your grossly incorrect original statement.


Hedging is one rationalle, not the only rationalle.  That said, just what do you think that buying bonds are intenteded to do for a company, if not to hedge against inflation of the fiat currency? That's also what gold is good for, btw.
Quote
As noted above, yes they are liquid enough to be considered as part of the 'cash reserve' figure in a summary financial statement, if the trading of such commodities is not a fundamental part of the corporation's core business model.


See above.  Contracts for the purpose of hedging are not physical assets.  Physical assets are not liquid.


Who do you think that you are arguing here? Logically correct, but still irrelevant to the topic.  Try and focus.
Quote

This seems like a great place for a quote from a recent Wiskey & Gunpowder article (commodities traders, Wiskey & Gunpowder, get it?)

"Oh dear. The gold price in dollars is volatile because the US dollar is volatile. An ounce of gold has almost always bought you a nice suit at any time in history.


Good thing I bought a suit last month, because their prices have shot up over $300 since then.   Roll Eyes


The gold/suit example is the most ridiculous, not to mention untrue, (and most often used by the gold bugs) of all.  I didn't realize that suits were the best (or even a good) reference for comparative value.  Someone tell the Fed to stop using a large basket of goods to calculate CPI and just use the average price of a suit.

Of course you would focus on the bit about the suit, and ignore the point completely.  I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume that you simply didn't understand the point.

Gold isn't an investment.  Gold is money.  If you are buying gold, silver or even oil futures as a speculative investment, you are as likely as not to lose capital.  If you are seeking an alternative currency to the default, gold is (historicly and generally) the best choice for capital preservation.  I.e. hedging against currency risks.  Most people would simply call this "saving".

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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August 20, 2011, 01:22:25 PM
 #70

So you've still got no answer to the question, just a whole lot of reasons why you can't answer it.  Corporations are too dishonest (highly ironic, given that want you deregulate them to full power over the world), financials are too hard for you to understand, lots of baseless claims... but no actual answer to why corporations are not buying up gold like it's going out of style.

Enjoying the dose of reality or getting a laugh out of my posts? Feel free to toss me a penny or two, everyone else seems to be doing it! 1Kn8NqvbCC83zpvBsKMtu4sjso5PjrQEu1
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August 21, 2011, 04:51:07 AM
 #71

So you've still got no answer to the question, just a whole lot of reasons why you can't answer it. 


If that's all that you could understand from my responses, then I would guess that I can't answer it for you.

Quote

Corporations are too dishonest (highly ironic, given that want you deregulate them to full power over the world),


I'm a libertarian, not an anarchist.  Try and understand the differences in the ideologies before displaying your ignorance.  Corporations are a creation of the state, and thus the state has the right to regulate them.  I'm opposed to regulations without basis or merit, which just happens to be the majority of them in our modern world.  That said, not all companies are corporations.  Corporations exist for the purpose of limitation of liability, which wouldn't even be allowed in a true free market economy.  Private companies that do not seek to limit their liabilities by hiding behind the skirt of mama state should not have to deal with the false regulations imposed by that same state.

Quote
financials are too hard for you to understand, lots of baseless claims... but no actual answer to why corporations are not buying up gold like it's going out of style.

Yeah, I don't think you're going to make it.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
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August 21, 2011, 02:05:16 PM
 #72

That's awesome. It's not like you can legally melt down the coins though, which sucks.

There is no need to, and if there ever was a need to do so, that law is going to lack force without a functional government.
It's not illegal to melt silver coins in the US, hasn't been since a brief ban in the late 60's. Many refiners melt silver coins. There is currently a melt and export ban only on pennies and nickels (specifically exempting silver war nickels) which began in late 2006.
http://www.usmint.gov/pressroom/?action=press_release&ID=724.

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