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Author Topic: Freedom and Responsibility - or: why you FAILED if you lost money in MBC crash  (Read 9166 times)
joepie91
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August 02, 2011, 05:28:54 AM
 #1

Before I start, this topic is not intended as trolling. I am entirely serious, and I hope I can wake up some people and make them realize what they are doing.

Bitcoin is about freedom. Freedom to do with your funds what you want. To store them in a way you want, in a way you deem them secure, without having to rely on a third party.

With freedom comes responsibility. Responsibility to take care of the security of your own funds, or to pick a provider you trust and have them take care of it.

If the MyBitcoin crash was a responsibility test, and you lost any considerable amount of money in there, YOU FAILED THE TEST.

Please explain to me how you had the idea that it was a good idea to store considerable funds in a service that has a proven poor track record - remember how hundreds of accounts were cleaned out, all to the same address, and not a single automated red flag regarding fraud was triggered, letting through all the payments? How such an obvious fraudulent transaction went through, and was claimed to have been 'stopped manually', with no real security measures in place? Remember how noone actually appears to really be running the site, and how it is rather 'faceless'? Why would you store any considerable amount of money there? Why did you not store (the majority of) it in a properly secured wallet.dat file on a local machine?

Even if this was not intended as a test, it was a very good one, and you definitely failed it if you indeed lost serious funds.

Just something to think about.

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August 02, 2011, 05:41:34 AM
 #2

So... now you're gloating that lots of people lost their coins and you still have them? Do you feel proud? Do you feel lucky? Should we be laughing if you fail the next "test"?

It's already bad enough, there is no need for a zillion topics rubbing it in to them. It has already happened, and the people involved are obviously aware that they made a mistake.

There is no need for rude and unfriendly comments like yours. Can we at least pretend to keep the community a nice place?

Storing your wallet in a safe way (both against theft and loss) is not exactly easy nor user friendly at the moment. Even for the tech-savy it's hard. Please contribute to solving this problem instead of kicking dead horses...

Bitcoin Core developer [PGP] Warning: For most, coin loss is a larger risk than coin theft. A disk can die any time. Regularly back up your wallet through FileBackup Wallet to an external storage or the (encrypted!) cloud. Use a separate offline wallet for storing larger amounts.
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August 02, 2011, 05:46:29 AM
 #3

So... now you're gloating that lots of people lost their coins and you still have them? Do you feel proud? Do you feel lucky? Should we be laughing if you fail the next "test"?

It's already bad enough, there is no need for a zillion topics rubbing it in to them. It has already happened, and the people involved are obviously aware that they made a mistake.

There is no need for rude and unfriendly comments like yours. Can we at least pretend to keep the community a nice place?

Storing your wallet in a safe way (both against theft and loss) is not exactly easy nor user friendly at the moment. Even for the tech-savy it's hard. Please contribute to solving this problem instead of kicking dead horses...


+1
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August 02, 2011, 05:49:15 AM
 #4

So... now you're gloating that lots of people lost their coins and you still have them? Do you feel proud? Do you feel lucky? Should we be laughing if you fail the next "test"?

It's already bad enough, there is no need for a zillion topics rubbing it in to them. It has already happened, and the people involved are obviously aware that they made a mistake.

There is no need for rude and unfriendly comments like yours. Can we at least pretend to keep the community a nice place?

Storing your wallet in a safe way (both against theft and loss) is not exactly easy nor user friendly at the moment. Even for the tech-savy it's hard. Please contribute to solving this problem instead of kicking dead horses...


+1
agree +1
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August 02, 2011, 05:50:18 AM
 #5

So... now you're gloating that lots of people lost their coins and you still have them? Do you feel proud? Do you feel lucky? Should we be laughing if you fail the next "test"?

It's already bad enough, there is no need for a zillion topics rubbing it in to them. It has already happened, and the people involved are obviously aware that they made a mistake.

There is no need for rude and unfriendly comments like yours. Can we at least pretend to keep the community a nice place?

Storing your wallet in a safe way (both against theft and loss) is not exactly easy nor user friendly at the moment. Even for the tech-savy it's hard. Please contribute to solving this problem instead of kicking dead horses...


Yeah.

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August 02, 2011, 05:50:34 AM
 #6

+1 for joespie91 AND +1 for John Smith.  I feel that they both make some good points.

I think there are a whole lot of possible tests that each one of us would fail and there is a realistic possibility of any number of them coming to pass.

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August 02, 2011, 06:03:22 AM
 #7

So... now you're gloating that lots of people lost their coins and you still have them? Do you feel proud? Do you feel lucky? Should we be laughing if you fail the next "test"?

It's already bad enough, there is no need for a zillion topics rubbing it in to them. It has already happened, and the people involved are obviously aware that they made a mistake.

There is no need for rude and unfriendly comments like yours. Can we at least pretend to keep the community a nice place?

Storing your wallet in a safe way (both against theft and loss) is not exactly easy nor user friendly at the moment. Even for the tech-savy it's hard. Please contribute to solving this problem instead of kicking dead horses...


I beg to differ based on the first amendment. He can say whatever he chooses and I suggest you reread his first sentence.

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theymos
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August 02, 2011, 06:07:00 AM
 #8

They did earn some amount of trust for existing so long, but it would have been crazy for anyone to store more than 50 BTC there. Why would you trust so much money to some anonymous service with a bad reputation?

There is a strong demand for a reputable Bitcoin bank. If I wasn't busy with other projects, I would definitely gather investments and start one. There's a lot of money to be made.

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joepie91
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August 02, 2011, 06:11:15 AM
 #9

So... now you're gloating that lots of people lost their coins and you still have them? Do you feel proud? Do you feel lucky? Should we be laughing if you fail the next "test"?

It's already bad enough, there is no need for a zillion topics rubbing it in to them. It has already happened, and the people involved are obviously aware that they made a mistake.

There is no need for rude and unfriendly comments like yours. Can we at least pretend to keep the community a nice place?

Storing your wallet in a safe way (both against theft and loss) is not exactly easy nor user friendly at the moment. Even for the tech-savy it's hard. Please contribute to solving this problem instead of kicking dead horses...

Not at all. I am being critical. I have told many people over the time to not rely on ewallets, especially not on MyBitcoin after a load of accounts got cleared out, and pretty much everyone had the same response: "it won't be that bad". I am not talking to the people who got their funds stolen in the first place (they could not possible have known that something like that could happen), I am talking to those who *despite* that STILL stored a considerable amount of funds with MyBitcoin after it has been PROVEN to be unsafe.

If a situation would occur where I could have known that something would go wrong, and I ignored that situation and got burnt - you and everyone else has all the right to tell me that. Sometimes things go wrong, but if you *know* that something is going on, or that something does not have proper security measures, and you are still blindly trusting it, you are making a massive mistake. People just shake it off and say "it won't happen again" or "it can't get that bad", completely ignore all warning signs, and go on with their business. I hope that this kind of message will actually make people think about it and realize what they are doing, and I hope that in the process it saves a few 'victims'.

And yes, I am being extremely offensive in my way of typing at times, but only if I have a good reason for that - in this case that reason is that I hope that people will actually realize what they are doing, rather than forgetting about it and making the same mistakes over and over again. Trust me, I'm really not doing this because I like to 'make myself feel superior' or anything along those lines.

I have already contributed to the problem several times by advising people over and over to NOT rely on webwallets as all of the current solutions lack proper security (two factor auth anyone? - excluding Mt. Gox on this one), and by helping people to secure their stuff.

Like my post(s)? 12TSXLa5Tu6ag4PNYCwKKSiZsaSCpAjzpu Smiley
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August 02, 2011, 06:14:04 AM
 #10

I beg to differ based on the first amendment. He can say whatever he chooses and I suggest you reread his first sentence.
My point is that it is better to be constructive.

His solution "keep it on a local machine" is just as bad advice (at least for most people). What if your  hdd crashes? Do you make backups? After every send? Are they stored safe enough or can other people find it there? Do you encrypt it? What if you lose the key?

And so on. This is a hard problem.

Most solutions that work against loss do not work against theft, and vice verse.

To prevent losing your wallet you want to mirror and distribute it to as many places as possible. However, to keep it from being stolen/hacked you want to put it only in one place and heavily encrypt it.

Bitcoin Core developer [PGP] Warning: For most, coin loss is a larger risk than coin theft. A disk can die any time. Regularly back up your wallet through FileBackup Wallet to an external storage or the (encrypted!) cloud. Use a separate offline wallet for storing larger amounts.
joepie91
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August 02, 2011, 06:18:35 AM
 #11

I beg to differ based on the first amendment. He can say whatever he chooses and I suggest you reread his first sentence.
Hey it's not like I'm censoring him so stop your "first amendment" pedantry.

My point is that it is better to be constructive.

His solution "keep it on a local machine" is just as bad advice (at least for most people). What if your  hdd crashes?
That is what (encrypted) backups are for, something I explain to everyone who cares enough. And some of those who don't.
Quote
Do you make backups? After every send?
As far as I am aware you need to make a backup 'every 100 addresses' because the Bitcoin client pregenerates 100 bitcoin addresses and always makes sure there are 100 in reserve. This is perfectly feasible, especially for a beginning user who doesn't use it a lot yet.
Quote
Are they stored safe enough or can other people find it there?
That is always an issue - in fact, while if you are running Bitcoin on your own computer you can just keep it in an encrypted unmounted volume while not in use, for an exchange or ewallet the wallet file is always accessible because otherwise the site wouldn't function.
Quote
Do you encrypt it?
Yes.
Quote
What if you lose the key?
What if you lose your ewallet password?
Quote
And so on. This is a hard problem.

Not really. It just takes some time and effort to properly help people in setting it up.

Like my post(s)? 12TSXLa5Tu6ag4PNYCwKKSiZsaSCpAjzpu Smiley
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I just can't wait for fall/winter. My furnace never generated money for me before. I'll keep mining until my furnace is more profitable.
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August 02, 2011, 06:21:15 AM
 #12

I beg to differ based on the first amendment. He can say whatever he chooses and I suggest you reread his first sentence.
My point is that it is better to be constructive.

His solution "keep it on a local machine" is just as bad advice (at least for most people). What if your  hdd crashes? Do you make backups? After every send? Are they stored safe enough or can other people find it there? Do you encrypt it? What if you lose the key?

And so on. This is a hard problem.


Yes I made backups.  I have a Mac and I backup via TimeMachine every few days.

Plus

I have my wallet.dat encrypted via Truecrypt and the resulting file copied to several places, including burnt CDs.

What boggles my mind is that anyone with more that 10 BTC doen't also do this.

Are you idiots?

Make 1 deposit and earn BTC for life! http://bitcoinpyramid.com/r/345
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August 02, 2011, 06:24:21 AM
 #13

I beg to differ based on the first amendment. He can say whatever he chooses and I suggest you reread his first sentence.
My point is that it is better to be constructive.

His solution "keep it on a local machine" is just as bad advice (at least for most people). What if your  hdd crashes? Do you make backups? After every send? Are they stored safe enough or can other people find it there? Do you encrypt it? What if you lose the key?

And so on. This is a hard problem.

Most solutions that work against loss do not work against theft, and vice verse.

To prevent losing your wallet you want to mirror and distribute it to as many places as possible. However, to keep it from being stolen/hacked you want to put it only in one place and heavily encrypt it.

AGREED! I too believe people need to be smart about their investments and if they are not smart enough to find someone they trust to be smart enough for them to secure their investment.

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           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
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                   ²²²                 
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. ★☆ WWW.LEALANA.COM        My PGP fingerprint is A764D833.        SMOOTHIE'S HEALTH AND FITNESS JOURNAL          History of Monero development Visualization ★☆ .
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August 02, 2011, 06:24:40 AM
 #14

That is what (encrypted) backups are for, something I explain to everyone who cares enough. And some of those who don't.
Encrypted backups work against loss (as long as you don't lose the key), but not hacking the PC and stealing the coins when in memory.

Quote
Do you make backups? After every send?
As far as I am aware you need to make a backup 'every 100 addresses' because the Bitcoin client pregenerates 100 bitcoin addresses and always makes sure there are 100 in reserve. This is perfectly feasible, especially for a beginning user who doesn't use it a lot yet.
That's extremely confusing to a new user. If you forget it, and have done 101 sends, you might have lost everything.

Quote
What if you lose your ewallet password?
If you lose your ewallet password you can request it back. The money is not lost forever.

Quote
Not really. It just takes some time and effort to properly help people in setting it up.
For a lot of people, it is very hard to set up. That it's easy for you doesn't mean it's easy or intuitive for everyone.

AGREED! I too believe people need to be smart about their investments and if they are not smart enough to find someone they trust to be smart enough for them to secure their investment.
If you only hoard it's easy.

But the idea of bitcoin is not to be an investment. It is to send and receive payments. If you are actively using your coins (like if you have a store) it is very hard to keep all the backups up to date, bother with decrypting/encrypting all the time, mounting volumes, and so on.




Bitcoin Core developer [PGP] Warning: For most, coin loss is a larger risk than coin theft. A disk can die any time. Regularly back up your wallet through FileBackup Wallet to an external storage or the (encrypted!) cloud. Use a separate offline wallet for storing larger amounts.
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August 02, 2011, 06:27:00 AM
 #15

Thanks for this thread, I completely agree with you. Storing Bitcoins with a third party is not storing Bitcoins. It’s only trusting that the third party stores them for you.

"Hey, have you heard of this new p2p currency? Noone can seize any funds or revert transactions!
You should buy some and if you’re too lazy to actually handle them, just store them on a shady e-wallet site."

Storing your wallet in a safe way (both against theft and loss) is not exactly easy nor user friendly at the moment. Even for the tech-savy it's hard. Please contribute to solving this problem instead of kicking dead horses...

I think it would have been clever to ask/pay someone to create an actually secure wallet for them, or even put up some bounties for easier solutions or whatever. We are not talking about negligible sums here, I have heard a figure of 25k BTC on NPR with regard to what Bruce Wagner had stored their.

PS: I store considerable funds at MtGox, but they have real identities who I trust attached to them, and I feel comfortable with the security measure in form of a Yubikey.
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August 02, 2011, 06:51:37 AM
 #16

That is what (encrypted) backups are for, something I explain to everyone who cares enough. And some of those who don't.
Encrypted backups work against loss (as long as you don't lose the key), but not hacking the PC and stealing the coins when in memory.
And how does this in any way describe a scenario that could not happen to a proven insecure service again?
Quote
Quote
Do you make backups? After every send?
As far as I am aware you need to make a backup 'every 100 addresses' because the Bitcoin client pregenerates 100 bitcoin addresses and always makes sure there are 100 in reserve. This is perfectly feasible, especially for a beginning user who doesn't use it a lot yet.
That's extremely confusing to a new user. If you forget it, and have done 101 sends, you might have lost everything.


Quote
Not really. It just takes some time and effort to properly help people in setting it up.
For a lot of people, it is very hard to set up. That it's easy for you doesn't mean it's easy or intuitive for everyone.
That is what my entire point about helping people was about - helping them do exactly that. I am not just giving them a link to some tutorial and saying 'good luck with it' - no, I am actually helping them.
Quote
Quote
What if you lose your ewallet password?
If you lose your ewallet password you can request it back. The money is not lost forever.
So because someone could possibly potentially manage to forget his encryption password... encrypting your wallet.dat is a bad idea? Seriously?
Quote

AGREED! I too believe people need to be smart about their investments and if they are not smart enough to find someone they trust to be smart enough for them to secure their investment.
If you only hoard it's easy.

But the idea of bitcoin is not to be an investment. It is to send and receive payments. If you are actively using your coins (like if you have a store) it is very hard to keep all the backups up to date, bother with decrypting/encrypting all the time, mounting volumes, and so on.

Security vs. Convenience.

Like my post(s)? 12TSXLa5Tu6ag4PNYCwKKSiZsaSCpAjzpu Smiley
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August 02, 2011, 06:52:07 AM
 #17

Thanks for this thread

Agreed. If it wasn't for this thread I wouldn't have known I was so quotable as to be part of a sig file.

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August 02, 2011, 06:52:39 AM
 #18


...

PS: I store considerable funds at MtGox, but they have real identities who I trust attached to them, and I feel comfortable with the security measure in form of a Yubikey.

The (potential) trouble is that you cannot get blood from a turnip.  The exchanges are one screw-up away from being insolvent, and your Yubikey is only partial protection against one form of possible problem.  Should any one of a number of possible problems happen it will not matter what the disposition of the operators might be.

For my part, if I have excess funds in the form of BTC, I take them home ASAP.  And put them in encrypted storage wallets with backups and all that jazz.  If/when I want to sell, I'll crack some of the savings wallets open and transfer them right back.  I limit what cash I store with the exchange (Tradhill primarily in my case) to a realistic minimum.

If an exchange wants to hold my BTC, they can pay me interest.  In fact I would be happy to let them hold a portion of my stash to perform futures operations and what-not...but I want a cut of the action.  And at this point none of them are even close to meeting my criteria for confidence in this part of the game.

But, of course, do as you see best.  These are just the ways I do things.

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August 02, 2011, 07:04:16 AM
 #19

So... now you're gloating that lots of people lost their coins and you still have them? Do you feel proud? Do you feel lucky? Should we be laughing if you fail the next "test"?

It's already bad enough, there is no need for a zillion topics rubbing it in to them. It has already happened, and the people involved are obviously aware that they made a mistake.

There is no need for rude and unfriendly comments like yours. Can we at least pretend to keep the community a nice place?

Storing your wallet in a safe way (both against theft and loss) is not exactly easy nor user friendly at the moment. Even for the tech-savy it's hard. Please contribute to solving this problem instead of kicking dead horses...

Honestly, while he has been harsh the MyBitcoin debacle was something easily predictable. There were several threads in the forums warning about the bad service. Specially about not answering emails. Why would you keep a big part of your bitcoins in a place that does not even answer emails? I dont get it.

People need to understand Bitcoin is not reversable, therefore you need to secure them. Bitcoin has a lot of advantages, non-inflationary (when the first phase is done), decentralized, pseudo-anonymous and not reversable (which is an advantage for a lot of things). But in exchange it has its drawbacks, the main one that you really need to secure them. I try not to leave too much time bitcoins at a third party. I dont even have more than 50 bitcoins in the linux machine I have connected to the Internet all the time. The rest of my bitcoins are offline.

Its not that hard to secure your bitcoins.
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August 02, 2011, 07:56:21 AM
 #20


Storing your wallet in a safe way (both against theft and loss) is not exactly easy nor user friendly at the moment. Even for the tech-savy it's hard. Please contribute to solving this problem instead of kicking dead horses...


 I can provide backup of your wallet on 3 different dedicated server, hosted in 3 different datacenters ( wether you are an individual or an exchange ) .
 For trust concerns you can check my gpg Wot and my otc ratings

 more on my bitcoin services :
http://bitcointalk.org/?topic=1687.0

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August 02, 2011, 12:05:08 PM
 #21

So... now you're gloating that lots of people lost their coins and you still have them? Do you feel proud? Do you feel lucky? Should we be laughing if you fail the next "test"?

It's already bad enough, there is no need for a zillion topics rubbing it in to them. It has already happened, and the people involved are obviously aware that they made a mistake.

There is no need for rude and unfriendly comments like yours. Can we at least pretend to keep the community a nice place?

Storing your wallet in a safe way (both against theft and loss) is not exactly easy nor user friendly at the moment. Even for the tech-savy it's hard. Please contribute to solving this problem instead of kicking dead horses...

So false.

People who made this mistake made it for some reasons and these reasons are WHY they probably will make again that mistakes again and again.

Something bad happened, and? We must shut up about it and ignore and forget it?

Or maybe we should speak about it and analyze what went wrong and why people lost money? I think the latter is the better way to face the problem.

We have people who sent their money to an unknown guy and guess what? They lost everything. First time it happens? No, not in bitcoin and not in the world!

This remind me EVE Online and the epic IPO/investment/shares scam. People "invest" their ingame money in these things cause omg it give me like 5% interests each month omg. And guess what? Every some months one of them come out to be a scam. Huge lossess happened, one scam stole enouff ingame money to make like 170000$. And yet everytime you go read the forum another scam just happened and so on again and again

People KEEP repeating their mistakes.

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August 02, 2011, 12:11:13 PM
 #22

+1 for joespie91 AND +1 for John Smith.  I feel that they both make some good points.

I think there are a whole lot of possible tests that each one of us would fail and there is a realistic possibility of any number of them coming to pass.

+1

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August 02, 2011, 12:13:17 PM
 #23

It seems that being an early adopter really is brutal and harsh.

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August 02, 2011, 12:32:05 PM
 #24

It seems that being an early adopter really is brutal and harsh.

LOL.  and we have a bunch of whiners here on the forum always complaining about how early adopters assumed NO RISK.
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August 02, 2011, 12:56:33 PM
 #25

Using e-wallet runned by untrusted individual who even doesn't provide his real name is totally stupid. Who lost money here could only blame himself.
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August 02, 2011, 07:27:29 PM
 #26

...remember how hundreds of accounts were cleaned out, all to the same address, and not a single automated red flag regarding fraud was triggered, letting through all the payments? How such an obvious fraudulent transaction went through, and was claimed to have been 'stopped manually', with no real security measures in place?

Can you tell me more about this event?  Was it the one posted by "Todd Bethell"?


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August 02, 2011, 09:39:17 PM
 #27

His solution "keep it on a local machine" is just as bad advice (at least for most people). What if your  hdd crashes? Do you make backups? After every send? Are they stored safe enough or can other people find it there? Do you encrypt it? What if you lose the key?

And so on. This is a hard problem.

Most solutions that work against loss do not work against theft, and vice verse.

This is just wrong, wrong and wrong some more.

You only really need one to two backups. Both encrypted with a secure password.  One backup can be stored on site and one backup should be stored off site.  As long as you use common sense in choosing your password (passphrase) for encryption and use a suitable encryption mechanism; I suggest Truecrypt or 7zip.  You are adequately protected from everything but a major disaster of proportions that will make Bitcoin the least of your worries.  As long as it's adequately encrypted, you do not have to worry about it being stolen.

You do not need to make a backup after every send, that is just ludicrous.  Maybe every 75 or 100 sends or perhaps once a week at most unless you are really active.  Regardless, it's not the sends you are concerned with but the receives.  It's the other people job that you are sending to to back up their wallets to protect those transactions. 

If you're searching these lines for a point, you've probably missed it.  There was never anything there in the first place.
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August 02, 2011, 09:46:09 PM
 #28

...remember how hundreds of accounts were cleaned out, all to the same address, and not a single automated red flag regarding fraud was triggered, letting through all the payments? How such an obvious fraudulent transaction went through, and was claimed to have been 'stopped manually', with no real security measures in place?

Can you tell me more about this event?  Was it the one posted by "Todd Bethell"?

I'm curious about this, as well. I don't recall this.

Still around.
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August 02, 2011, 10:35:28 PM
 #29

...remember how hundreds of accounts were cleaned out, all to the same address, and not a single automated red flag regarding fraud was triggered, letting through all the payments? How such an obvious fraudulent transaction went through, and was claimed to have been 'stopped manually', with no real security measures in place?

Can you tell me more about this event?  Was it the one posted by "Todd Bethell"?
I'm guessing that joepie91's talking about the mass clearout of mybitcoin accounts where people had used the same password for as their Mt Gox account after the Mt Gox database leak.

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August 02, 2011, 10:42:50 PM
 #30

...remember how hundreds of accounts were cleaned out, all to the same address, and not a single automated red flag regarding fraud was triggered, letting through all the payments? How such an obvious fraudulent transaction went through, and was claimed to have been 'stopped manually', with no real security measures in place?

Can you tell me more about this event?  Was it the one posted by "Todd Bethell"?
I'm guessing that joepie91's talking about the mass clearout of mybitcoin accounts where people had used the same password for as their Mt Gox account after the Mt Gox database leak.

Umm.. no. He's talking about MyBitCoin going >poof< and disappearing with everyone's money that was using the "service".

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August 02, 2011, 11:57:45 PM
 #31


Storing your wallet in a safe way (both against theft and loss) is not exactly easy nor user friendly at the moment. Even for the tech-savy it's hard. Please contribute to solving this problem instead of kicking dead horses...


 I can provide backup of your wallet on 3 different dedicated server, hosted in 3 different datacenters ( wether you are an individual or an exchange ) .
 For trust concerns you can check my gpg Wot and my otc ratings

 more on my bitcoin services :
http://bitcointalk.org/?topic=1687.0

Seriously stop spamming this sh*t on the mybitcoin threads. We heard you the first time. Oh and put a shirt on please  Grin

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August 03, 2011, 12:13:24 AM
 #32

Before I start, this topic is not intended as trolling. I am entirely serious, and I hope I can wake up some people and make them realize what they are doing.

Bitcoin is about freedom. Freedom to do with your funds what you want. To store them in a way you want, in a way you deem them secure, without having to rely on a third party.

With freedom comes responsibility. Responsibility to take care of the security of your own funds, or to pick a provider you trust and have them take care of it.

If the MyBitcoin crash was a responsibility test, and you lost any considerable amount of money in there, YOU FAILED THE TEST.

Please explain to me how you had the idea that it was a good idea to store considerable funds in a service that has a proven poor track record - remember how hundreds of accounts were cleaned out, all to the same address, and not a single automated red flag regarding fraud was triggered, letting through all the payments? How such an obvious fraudulent transaction went through, and was claimed to have been 'stopped manually', with no real security measures in place? Remember how noone actually appears to really be running the site, and how it is rather 'faceless'? Why would you store any considerable amount of money there? Why did you not store (the majority of) it in a properly secured wallet.dat file on a local machine?

Even if this was not intended as a test, it was a very good one, and you definitely failed it if you indeed lost serious funds.

Just something to think about.

Some of us are not forum trolls hanging out here 24/7 and where unaware of past issues with mybitcoin, as you know from being a forum geek that many people and sites have recomended mybitcoin for storing your coins, this appealed to me due to my constant working away in diffrent countries, So mybitcoin seemed a good solution. I did'nt bother to check for valid mybitcoin email contact due to it had a good reputation at the time I signed up. Its ashame the little teen forum trolls like your self has to come and brag how good they are.

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August 03, 2011, 12:41:59 AM
 #33

Using e-wallet runned by untrusted individual who even doesn't provide his real name is totally stupid. Who lost money here could only blame himself.

Are you insane? The blame squarely lies with the perpetrator not the victim. The prepretrator is solely at fault for the misdeeds.

Could the victim(s) have done more to protect themselves? Perhaps. But does their failing to protect themselves provide any justification for a thief? No.

Have you not found a wallet or seen property such as cash just lying around which you could take and probably never be caught? Personally, I have helped locate the true owners of lost property on multiple occasions; property I could have kept if I wanted to and faced no repercussions. But I am not that type of person.

Freedom and responsibility are about being the type of person who can live in a free society; not about protecting yourself from the type of people who cannot. Freedom is an internal, not external, state of being.

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August 03, 2011, 12:46:07 AM
 #34

Regardless. If you choose to store a valuable commodity such as bitcoin on some random ass server (don't give me this "well-repped" speech. Sony couldn't even keep their database secured and they make billions of dollars per year) without doing any homework, you're pretty much asking for it.

If you travel a lot, ever heard of a USB drive? It was a public server holding tens/hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of bitcoins and (as far as anyone knows) no one taking care of the site. Use your brains...

I guess I'd much rather not be the one to have their funds stolen, then sit back and say "Well, that shouldn't have happened... at least it wasn't my fault!"

Help Bitcoins by buying clothes, technology, books, etc. through people/stores that accept BTC. This will increase overall value of BTC as well as mitigate unnecessary bank transaction fees.

My address -
1EM9HGg1SEa5Bux1rVEPxGqGSfNTTc9EkC
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August 03, 2011, 12:58:54 AM
 #35

OK. Pop Quiz.

A couple weeks ago a gentleman posted on the boards that he had created a bitcoin bond and was selling it at a price which guaranteed a very high annualized return. My immediate question was: Did you include your name, address, phone #, soc sec#, or other information that would allow me to sue you if you do not pay? The answer was (paraphrased) "No, I am conducting an experiment to see if folks will trust an anonymous internet identity."

Question: Should you invest?
......
Answer: Of course not. That would be silly.
However, folks did buy those bitcoin bonds! I think that is pretty much what this thread is about.

I cannot imagine giving a penny to anyone without confirming their real world identity unless I was prepared to lose that money.

Folks are saying that they were fooled because mybitcoin.com had a good reputation. I have some sympathy for these folks (although I think they are far more trusting than I am). The reputation of a site is built on the reputation of the folks behind it or the folks recommending it. Considering that we do not even know for sure who was actually running mybitcoin.com, I will assume it was the latter that built the "falsely positive reputation" that folks depended on.

Which brings me to Bruce Wagner. I like Bruce. I like his show and his enthusiasm. He seems pretty smart, too. But the idea that he referenced a service without confirmation of real identity is very hard to understand. It is one thing to take such a risk yourself. It is quite another, especially if you are an expert with a reputation, to be advising others without full disclosure of the risks. I really hope Bruce was clear about those risks or, frankly, I would have a hard time showing my face around here again if I were him.

In conclusion, Bruce and anyone else who mentioned mybitcoin.com, without stating that they have not personally confirmed the trustworthiness of that site, should regret that they did that and should refrain from doing that for other services in the future.
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August 03, 2011, 01:06:02 AM
 #36

OK. Pop Quiz.

A couple weeks ago a gentleman posted on the boards that he had created a bitcoin bond and was selling it at a price which guaranteed a very high annualized return. My immediate question was: Did you include your name, address, phone #, soc sec#, or other information that would allow me to sue you if you do not pay? The answer was (paraphrased) "No, I am conducting an experiment to see if folks will trust an anonymous internet identity."

Question: Should you invest?
......
Answer: Of course not. That would be silly.
However, folks did buy those bitcoin bonds! I think that is pretty much what this thread is about.

I cannot imagine giving a penny to anyone without confirming their real world identity unless I was prepared to lose that money.

Folks are saying that they were fooled because mybitcoin.com had a good reputation. I have some sympathy for these folks (although I think they are far more trusting than I am). The reputation of a site is built on the reputation of the folks behind it or the folks recommending it. Considering that we do not even know for sure who was actually running mybitcoin.com, I will assume it was the latter that built the "falsely positive reputation" that folks depended on.

Which brings me to Bruce Wagner. I like Bruce. I like his show and his enthusiasm. He seems pretty smart, too. But the idea that he referenced a service without confirmation of real identity is very hard to understand. It is one thing to take such a risk yourself. It is quite another, especially if you are an expert with a reputation, to be advising others without full disclosure of the risks. I really hope Bruce was clear about those risks or, frankly, I would have a hard time showing my face around here again if I were him.

In conclusion, Bruce and anyone else who mentioned mybitcoin.com, without stating that they have not personally confirmed the trustworthiness of that site, should regret that they did that and should refrain from doing that for other services in the future.


Well said.

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August 03, 2011, 01:37:37 AM
 #37


...

Which brings me to Bruce Wagner. I like Bruce. I like his show and his enthusiasm. He seems pretty smart, too. But the idea that he referenced a service without confirmation of real identity is very hard to understand. It is one thing to take such a risk yourself. It is quite another, especially if you are an expert with a reputation, to be advising others without full disclosure of the risks. I really hope Bruce was clear about those risks or, frankly, I would have a hard time showing my face around here again if I were him.

In conclusion, Bruce and anyone else who mentioned mybitcoin.com, without stating that they have not personally confirmed the trustworthiness of that site, should regret that they did that and should refrain from doing that for other services in the future.


Speaking of Bruce...

I sure hope that he is OK in all of this.  He obviously had a lot of hope, energy, and passion for the project.  I hope he is not prone to suicidal tendencies or anything like that, is strong enough to look at the whole picture, and experienced enough to know that all things pass.   (It seems at this point that...) Ya, he fucked up.  Big time.  But he is not the only one and he has done a lot of very good work for a very important project and that has not gone away.  I personally appreciate his work a lot and hope not only that he recovers but continues to contribute.


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August 03, 2011, 02:03:15 AM
 #38


...

Which brings me to Bruce Wagner. I like Bruce. I like his show and his enthusiasm. He seems pretty smart, too. But the idea that he referenced a service without confirmation of real identity is very hard to understand. It is one thing to take such a risk yourself. It is quite another, especially if you are an expert with a reputation, to be advising others without full disclosure of the risks. I really hope Bruce was clear about those risks or, frankly, I would have a hard time showing my face around here again if I were him.

In conclusion, Bruce and anyone else who mentioned mybitcoin.com, without stating that they have not personally confirmed the trustworthiness of that site, should regret that they did that and should refrain from doing that for other services in the future.


Speaking of Bruce...

I sure hope that he is OK in all of this.  He obviously had a lot of hope, energy, and passion for the project.  I hope he is not prone to suicidal tendencies or anything like that, is strong enough to look at the whole picture, and experienced enough to know that all things pass.   (It seems at this point that...) Ya, he fucked up.  Big time.  But he is not the only one and he has done a lot of very good work for a very important project and that has not gone away.  I personally appreciate his work a lot and hope not only that he recovers but continues to contribute.


+1

Thanks for pointing out the larger context: that Bruce has made great contributions and by all accounts has the best of intentions.
Bruce appears to be a great person and leader with a lot of potential. I also hope he keeps his perspective: that this is just a bump in the road of life.
(I did not like writing about Bruce's role in this, but I thought it needed to be said, and others would probably say it less nicely.)
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August 03, 2011, 04:46:57 AM
 #39

...remember how hundreds of accounts were cleaned out, all to the same address, and not a single automated red flag regarding fraud was triggered, letting through all the payments? How such an obvious fraudulent transaction went through, and was claimed to have been 'stopped manually', with no real security measures in place?

Can you tell me more about this event?  Was it the one posted by "Todd Bethell"?
I'm guessing that joepie91's talking about the mass clearout of mybitcoin accounts where people had used the same password for as their Mt Gox account after the Mt Gox database leak.
Exactly, this.

Hundreds of accounts were cleared out, I believe over 4000 BTC in total, all to the very same address. 3 friends of mine lost funds in that one, all of them went to the same address.

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August 03, 2011, 06:06:46 AM
 #40

I fully agree with the Op, I honestly don't understand how someone can trust an online service. Sony got hacked yet many people beleived a site like MBC would be safe even though it held real money. For all we know Google might get hacked by a few smart people in a few years. Things like those are bound to happen sooner or later.

Asssume for a second they have the equivalent of USD 500k in BTC. Now do a small calculation on whether it would make sense to hire a full time employee hacking the website for a full year. Is it worth it? Now think about salaries in some poor countries...


I am ok with someone storing his life-savings in an online wallet but I am not ok with the complaints that pop up when all the money is suddenly gone.

Some things are just bound to happen...
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August 03, 2011, 06:23:41 AM
 #41

Before I start, this topic is not intended as trolling. I am entirely serious, and I hope I can wake up some people and make them realize what they are doing.

Bitcoin is about freedom. Freedom to do with your funds what you want. To store them in a way you want, in a way you deem them secure, without having to rely on a third party.

With freedom comes responsibility. Responsibility to take care of the security of your own funds, or to pick a provider you trust and have them take care of it.

If the MyBitcoin crash was a responsibility test, and you lost any considerable amount of money in there, YOU FAILED THE TEST.

Please explain to me how you had the idea that it was a good idea to store considerable funds in a service that has a proven poor track record - remember how hundreds of accounts were cleaned out, all to the same address, and not a single automated red flag regarding fraud was triggered, letting through all the payments? How such an obvious fraudulent transaction went through, and was claimed to have been 'stopped manually', with no real security measures in place? Remember how noone actually appears to really be running the site, and how it is rather 'faceless'? Why would you store any considerable amount of money there? Why did you not store (the majority of) it in a properly secured wallet.dat file on a local machine?

Even if this was not intended as a test, it was a very good one, and you definitely failed it if you indeed lost serious funds.

Just something to think about.

Hmm..  lets recap

1.   Mtgox gets hacked.   Funds stolen,  hashed password list published to internet
2.   Allinvain's computer gets hacked.  25,000 BTC stolen
3.   Coinpal gets paypal accounts frozen
4.   bitcoin4cash.com complains of postal strikes ... does not honor locked in trades
5.   TradeHill drops Dwolla
6.   Mybitcoin.com disappears
7.   Virus appears in wild that steals wallets

Could be that bitcoin in general needs a better track record.   Just something to think about.
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August 03, 2011, 06:55:34 AM
 #42

Hmm..  lets recap

1.   Mtgox gets hacked.   Funds stolen,  hashed password list published to internet
2.   Allinvain's computer gets hacked.  25,000 BTC stolen
3.   Coinpal gets paypal accounts frozen
4.   bitcoin4cash.com complains of postal strikes ... does not honor locked in trades
5.   TradeHill drops Dwolla
6.   Mybitcoin.com disappears
7.   Virus appears in wild that steals wallets

Could be that bitcoin in general needs a better track record.   Just something to think about.

How could you miss this one?
5.5  bitomat (Poland) - worlds 3rd largest bitcoin exchange 'loses' entire BTC holdings (estimate 17000 coins?)

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August 03, 2011, 07:06:30 AM
 #43


...

Which brings me to Bruce Wagner. I like Bruce. I like his show and his enthusiasm. He seems pretty smart, too. But the idea that he referenced a service without confirmation of real identity is very hard to understand. It is one thing to take such a risk yourself. It is quite another, especially if you are an expert with a reputation, to be advising others without full disclosure of the risks. I really hope Bruce was clear about those risks or, frankly, I would have a hard time showing my face around here again if I were him.

In conclusion, Bruce and anyone else who mentioned mybitcoin.com, without stating that they have not personally confirmed the trustworthiness of that site, should regret that they did that and should refrain from doing that for other services in the future.


Speaking of Bruce...

I sure hope that he is OK in all of this.  He obviously had a lot of hope, energy, and passion for the project.  I hope he is not prone to suicidal tendencies or anything like that, is strong enough to look at the whole picture, and experienced enough to know that all things pass.   (It seems at this point that...) Ya, he fucked up.  Big time.  But he is not the only one and he has done a lot of very good work for a very important project and that has not gone away.  I personally appreciate his work a lot and hope not only that he recovers but continues to contribute.

This was the oldest, longest standing bitcoin eWallet site in existence.   It had a strong record of stability.   It had been around nearly since the beginning of bitcoin itself.    People who trusted using an eWallet at all...  trusted it.   It had 10s of thousands of account holders.   Some of the smartest, most reputable, long-standing bitcoin community leaders used it.    Only two people ever complained about me recommending it.   But neither could ( or were willing to ) give me any concrete reasons why they shouldn't be trusted.... other than, "I just have a bad feeling about them."    At the time, that sounded like saying the same thing about MtGox.  They had never given me, or any other users any reason to believe that they were not reputable.   Also, it was by far --- and still to this day --- the easiest and most feature rich eWallet in existence.

You have no idea how much I regret recommending mybitcoin.com   I  do not have suicidal tendencies.    I have been through things even worse than this in my life.    What doesn't kill us makes us stronger.

In a few hours from now...  tomorrow morning.... I will tape an episode of The Bitcoin Show as a monologue....  just me, talking about all of this... all of my thoughts and feelings and lessons learned.... and my new convictions and new directions of advocacy ( as I'm sure you can guess what they include )...

I have not lost any faith in Bitcoin, nor in OnlyOneTV.    It has brought me back down to earth..... and HARD....  slammed my face down on the pavement.   I am no expert, and I try to emphasize that as often as possible.    But, at the same time,  I do not take my responsibility as "someone people listen to" lightly.    The pain of losing 25,000 of my own bitcoin is nothing.   Nothing at all.    Compared to the pain of knowing that my recommendations have led to the loss of so many others.   That tears my heart out.   You have no idea how much.

At first, it felt like I was kicked in the gut by an angry horse.   I've felt that pain in my gut constantly every since.   But on top of that, moments later, the realization that everyone I know and love and care about....  and how many other strangers who listen to me....  have lost their bitcoin in this as well....   and I've pretty much not stopped crying since Friday.    Even though I have been at the office, and I have put on a normal face for people...    That's why you haven't seen me on the air.     I have to regain my composure, get it together, get my head and my thoughts together, determine where to go from here, and what to say to the audience.

The worst is facing all the people I love most in my life....  and telling them what happened.... one by one.    They trusted my advice without hesitation.    And now I have to tell them what happened.    I suspect that nothing that could happen to me in my life will ever cause me as much pain as I am experiencing right now....  just thinking of how I will tell them.   These are not techie geeks like you guys.   These are normal people.   They are not to blame.   And, yes, in hindsight, I should have known better.   Hindsight is so 20/20.


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August 03, 2011, 07:29:18 AM
 #44

I have not lost any faith in Bitcoin, nor in OnlyOneTV.    It has brought me back down to earth..... and HARD....  slammed my face down on the pavement.   I am no expert, and I try to emphasize that as often as possible.    But, at the same time,  I do not take my responsibility as "someone people listen to" lightly.    The pain of losing 25,000 of my own bitcoin is nothing.   Nothing at all.    Compared to the pain of knowing that my recommendations have led to the loss of so many others.   That tears my heart out.   You have no idea how much.
This really sucks Sad I have no words for this. You of all people on this forum deserved this the least. Good luck from here...

Quote
These are not techie geeks like you guys.   These are normal people.   They are not to blame.
Exactly... this was an incredible setback in getting bitcoin adopted by the rest of the people. No matter what happens now, you did a great job trying.

All the armchair anarchists here can take a lesson from you... the amount of victim blaming here going on is abnormal.


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August 03, 2011, 07:49:02 AM
 #45


How could you miss this one?
5.5  bitomat (Poland) - worlds 3rd largest bitcoin exchange 'loses' entire BTC holdings (estimate 17000 coins?)


+1
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August 03, 2011, 07:49:39 AM
 #46

All the armchair anarchists here can take a lesson from you... the amount of victim blaming here going on is abnormal.
Who is responsible then? Noone?

I hate seeing a second early adopter lose 25k BTC and even worse many other people with him. If even we can’t secure our Bitcoins, even with the help of third parties, then how the hell are non-technical people supposed to?

The worst thing about this is that early adopters are losing Bitcoins they would probably invest back into the Bitcoin economy/infrastructure, losing them to people who will rather just sell them for fiat money.

Bitcoin is quite a useless currency if it continues to be more profitable to steal and betray than to do productive things in order to earn them.
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August 03, 2011, 07:52:24 AM
 #47

Good on you Bruce.
It's a tough way to learn a lesson.

Tempered by experience - you're well placed to track the fast-paced bitcoin world, asking the tough questions while sharing the excitement of new developments.

I've always enjoyed your optimism and infectious enthusiasm..  Don't lose that!

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August 03, 2011, 08:01:37 AM
 #48

Bruce, my sincere condolences to you and all the other people who have suffered a loss from this tragedy. Your enthusiasm has always been inspiring and I really hope that you will get over this and find back to your cheerful nature. I'm sure people are not blaming you - you always acted on good faith!

Exactly... this was an incredible setback in getting bitcoin adopted by the rest of the people. No matter what happens now, you did a great job trying.

All the armchair anarchists here can take a lesson from you... the amount of victim blaming here going on is abnormal.
+1

We're all in this together - even if you are not affected personally, this incident is surely going to have an effect on how the world views Bitcoin. Let's not blame the victims but see how we can learn from this and stand together as a community, helping Bitcoin to get up on its feet again.

Bitcoin is quite a useless currency if it continues to be more profitable to steal and betray than to do productive things in order to earn them.
Contrary to the saying, crime often does pay in the real world - regardless of the currency, so I don't see how anyone can blame Bitcoin for that. Bitcoin is real money and people steal Bitcoins and betray with them just like they do with other currencies.

You don't see big headlines all the time for all the useful things people do with their Bitcoins however.

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August 03, 2011, 08:05:50 AM
 #49

Contrary to the saying, crime often does pay in the real world - regardless of the currency, so I don't see how anyone can blame Bitcoin for that.
That’s true, but with Bitcoin, it is much easier to go undetected, the risk of facing any consequences is significantly reduced. Have you seen one Bitcoin villain face any law enforcement or even some kind of vigilante yet?

In the real world it’s high risk, high profit, but with us it’s low risk and high profit, so it’s much more attractive. Until we finally learn.
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August 03, 2011, 08:29:47 AM
 #50

Contrary to the saying, crime often does pay in the real world - regardless of the currency, so I don't see how anyone can blame Bitcoin for that.
That’s true, but with Bitcoin, it is much easier to go undetected, the risk of facing any consequences is significantly reduced. Have you seen one Bitcoin villain face any law enforcement or even some kind of vigilante yet?

In the real world it’s high risk, high profit, but with us it’s low risk and high profit, so it’s much more attractive. Until we finally learn.
I wouldn't say it is of lower risk than any other online crimes - unless you are really really careful you can eventually be tracked down. There are no well-established and provably secure ways to absolutely decouple the stolen Bitcoins from any traces to your identity if you plan on actually using them.

I'm sure with Bitcoin becoming more mature, there will be services to somehow mark and trace stolen Bitcoins, correlate them with known identities and detect and maybe reverse some types of mixing strategies. With all the history of Bitcoin being unerasably stored for eternity, future law enforcement techniques will probably be able to effectively investigate all major Bitcoin thefts of the past. With more and more victims, some lawyers might even make good money by specializing on such services.

The bigger the theft, the harder it is to get away with it. I for sure wouldn't feel very safe if I had stolen tens of thousands of Bitcoins...

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August 03, 2011, 08:45:42 AM
 #51

The only truly valuable things we have are the relationships we develop with other people. Money is ultimately just an idea, and the amplified emotional force of losing it is ultimately a result of the monetary system in which we have developed. Criminal behavior and monetary losses will continue to be ubiquitous until such time as we decide to leave this outdated and increasingly destructive system behind and start using our reason to provide for and care about all of our fellow human beings.

Ultimately, money does not care for or about us. We should stop caring for and about it.

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August 03, 2011, 08:53:37 AM
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Only two people ever complained about me recommending it.   But neither could ( or were willing to ) give me any concrete reasons why they shouldn't be trusted.... other than, "I just have a bad feeling about them."    At the time, that sounded like saying the same thing about MtGox.  They had never given me, or any other users any reason to believe that they were not reputable.   Also, it was by far --- and still to this day --- the easiest and most feature rich eWallet in existence.
There was a very concrete reason they shouldn't be trusted anymore: at the time the site disappeared, no-one had been able to sucessfully get any kind of response from MyBitcoin to support queries for just under a month, nor had there been any other kind of communication from anyone involved in running the site. Several people reported being locked out of their accounts after forgotting their password because their requests for their password to be manually reset were ignored. Some have even made claims that their existing password stopped working. Apparently you didn't feel that was a good enough reason though.

(For those who haven't seen the threads in question, this was why people were complaining about Bruce recommending it.)

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August 03, 2011, 09:09:24 AM
 #53

The only truly valuable things we have are the relationships we develop with other people. Money is ultimately just an idea, and the amplified emotional force of losing it is ultimately a result of the monetary system in which we have developed. Criminal behavior and monetary losses will continue to be ubiquitous until such time as we decide to leave this outdated and increasingly destructive system behind and start using our reason to provide for and care about all of our fellow human beings.

Ultimately, money does not care for or about us. We should stop caring for and about it.
Agreed.

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August 03, 2011, 10:10:15 AM
 #54

This was the oldest, longest standing bitcoin eWallet site in existence.   It had a strong record of stability.   It had been around nearly since the beginning of bitcoin itself.    People who trusted using an eWallet at all...  trusted it.   It had 10s of thousands of account holders.   Some of the smartest, most reputable, long-standing bitcoin community leaders used it.    Only two people ever complained about me recommending it.   But neither could ( or were willing to ) give me any concrete reasons why they shouldn't be trusted.... other than, "I just have a bad feeling about them."    At the time, that sounded like saying the same thing about MtGox.  They had never given me, or any other users any reason to believe that they were not reputable.   Also, it was by far --- and still to this day --- the easiest and most feature rich eWallet in existence.

I think that the concrete reason why mybitcoin shouldn't be trusted isn't specific to mybitcoin: none of the websites that offer to to store your bitcoins under their central control should be trusted, and the reason is that giving control over your bitcoins to someone else is unnecessary. It kinda defeats the whole idea behind bitcoin, regarding that we shouldn't need to trust our money with some central control that can steal it (via inflation usually). Instead, you can for example store your encrypted wallet.dat (official bitcoin client v0.4 format) as dropbox public link, and then access it via open-source smartphone apps etc. where you provide your passphrase locally when you wish to send coins (the unencrypted wallet.dat private keys should never be sent anywhere, only the signed transactions should be sent).

It's true that v0.4 wallet.dat isn't available yet, and that mybitcoin is more convenient than secure options like encrypted dropbox public link. It's also true that for mtgox you have put your trust under central control because you cannot deposit dollars into a distributed network of honest participants (so you should withdraw BTC from mtgox occasionally, according to the level of risk that you're willing to take).

However, even if we agree that using something like mybitcoin for convenience can make sense, I think that you should minimize the level of trust involved, by only depositing a relatively small amount of bitcoins into the centrally controlled service, and when you spend most of it you deposit another such amount, and so on. Could you please explain why you decided to deposit 25k BTC into mybitcoin, instead of a smaller amount?
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August 03, 2011, 11:15:45 AM
 #55

Earlier this year...

"Let’s Make Some Predictions...
Finally, there will be massive breakage in bitcoins. If your laptop crashes and you didn’t back up your bitcoins, well, you’re SOL. If someone steals you laptop that has 10,000 bitcoins on it you won on Bitcoin Poker, you’re SOL. Lost your USB drive with 500 bitcoins on it after a night out on the town? You’re SOL."

from 
Bitcoin P2P Currency: The Most Dangerous Project We've Ever Seen
by Jason Calacanis and the LAUNCH team
http://launch.is/blog/l019-bitcoin-p2p-currency-the-most-dangerous-project-weve-ev.html
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August 03, 2011, 12:56:59 PM
 #56

Earlier this year...

"Let’s Make Some Predictions...
Finally, there will be massive breakage in bitcoins. If your laptop crashes and you didn’t back up your bitcoins, well, you’re SOL. If someone steals you laptop that has 10,000 bitcoins on it you won on Bitcoin Poker, you’re SOL. Lost your USB drive with 500 bitcoins on it after a night out on the town? You’re SOL."
I would like my dollar to be able to be 'backed up' in the sense that I can destroy what is in my wallet in front of me physically, and know the value can still be recovered.

Laptop theory is same with or without Bitcoin, including many user names or passwords that you used on that laptop and etc etc.   If you kept all your user names and passwords secure, then no doubt the wallet with digital money on your hard drive is secure too, no?

Lost your USB drive = lost your wallet.

Loved that link though.

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August 03, 2011, 02:01:01 PM
 #57

If even we can’t secure our Bitcoins, even with the help of third parties, then how the hell are non-technical people supposed to?

Third parties are the problem. You must secure your own bitcoins. You have nothing to gain from giving someone else 24/7 access to your money. Keep your bitcoins encrypted and backed up yourself. No one else should have access to them except your heirs in the event of your death.
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August 03, 2011, 02:59:16 PM
 #58

The worst thing about this is that early adopters are losing Bitcoins they would probably invest back into the Bitcoin economy/infrastructure, losing them to people who will rather just sell them for fiat money.

On the other hand... they're most likely selling them to a large number of new, interested people, eroding the complaint against early adopters controlling an inordinate number of Bitcoins... Silver lining?
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August 03, 2011, 03:29:00 PM
 #59

... and I've pretty much not stopped crying since Friday.    Even though I have been at the office, and I have put on a normal face for people...    That's why you haven't seen me on the air.     I have to regain my composure, get it together, get my head and my thoughts together, determine where to go from here, and what to say to the audience.

It may help to turn your feelings of pain into anger, and direct that into action to make sure that this issue is fixed and/or will never happen again. Good luck!

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August 03, 2011, 05:55:02 PM
 #60

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This was the oldest, longest standing bitcoin eWallet site in existence.   It had a strong record of stability.   It had been around nearly since the beginning of bitcoin itself.    People who trusted using an eWallet at all...  trusted it.   It had 10s of thousands of account holders.   Some of the smartest, most reputable, long-standing bitcoin community leaders used it.

So, before you "trusted" your money to mybitcoin.com, recommended to personal friends that they trust "mybitcoin.com", and recommended mybitcoin.com to people online, you spent +/- $2000 to fly down and meet the people behind it ... right.

I think you need to look up the word trust.

The second day I got into bitcoin I knew it mybitcoin.com was bad news and pulled everything out of mybitcoin.com.

The damage you have done to bitcoin is immeasurable.

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August 03, 2011, 06:11:50 PM
 #61

 i guess i can any say that i'm a bit surprised that people chose to use MyBitcoin at all. bitcoins seem to be a geek project anyway and most of the geeks i know would want to control their own wallets and security. well, this seems to be one of the growing pains of a growing currency. sorry to all that lost their coins.
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August 03, 2011, 08:24:52 PM
 #62

I'm having a hard time feeling sorry ... people need to do their due diligence.  Their ignorance and lack of common sense is a set back for bitcoin.

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August 03, 2011, 08:33:43 PM
 #63


...

Which brings me to Bruce Wagner. I like Bruce. I like his show and his enthusiasm. He seems pretty smart, too. But the idea that he referenced a service without confirmation of real identity is very hard to understand. It is one thing to take such a risk yourself. It is quite another, especially if you are an expert with a reputation, to be advising others without full disclosure of the risks. I really hope Bruce was clear about those risks or, frankly, I would have a hard time showing my face around here again if I were him.

In conclusion, Bruce and anyone else who mentioned mybitcoin.com, without stating that they have not personally confirmed the trustworthiness of that site, should regret that they did that and should refrain from doing that for other services in the future.


Speaking of Bruce...

I sure hope that he is OK in all of this.  He obviously had a lot of hope, energy, and passion for the project.  I hope he is not prone to suicidal tendencies or anything like that, is strong enough to look at the whole picture, and experienced enough to know that all things pass.   (It seems at this point that...) Ya, he fucked up.  Big time.  But he is not the only one and he has done a lot of very good work for a very important project and that has not gone away.  I personally appreciate his work a lot and hope not only that he recovers but continues to contribute.

This was the oldest, longest standing bitcoin eWallet site in existence.   It had a strong record of stability.   It had been around nearly since the beginning of bitcoin itself.    People who trusted using an eWallet at all...  trusted it.   It had 10s of thousands of account holders.   Some of the smartest, most reputable, long-standing bitcoin community leaders used it.    Only two people ever complained about me recommending it.   But neither could ( or were willing to ) give me any concrete reasons why they shouldn't be trusted.... other than, "I just have a bad feeling about them."    At the time, that sounded like saying the same thing about MtGox.  They had never given me, or any other users any reason to believe that they were not reputable.   Also, it was by far --- and still to this day --- the easiest and most feature rich eWallet in existence.

You have no idea how much I regret recommending mybitcoin.com   I  do not have suicidal tendencies.    I have been through things even worse than this in my life.    What doesn't kill us makes us stronger.

In a few hours from now...  tomorrow morning.... I will tape an episode of The Bitcoin Show as a monologue....  just me, talking about all of this... all of my thoughts and feelings and lessons learned.... and my new convictions and new directions of advocacy ( as I'm sure you can guess what they include )...

I have not lost any faith in Bitcoin, nor in OnlyOneTV.    It has brought me back down to earth..... and HARD....  slammed my face down on the pavement.   I am no expert, and I try to emphasize that as often as possible.    But, at the same time,  I do not take my responsibility as "someone people listen to" lightly.    The pain of losing 25,000 of my own bitcoin is nothing.   Nothing at all.    Compared to the pain of knowing that my recommendations have led to the loss of so many others.   That tears my heart out.   You have no idea how much.

At first, it felt like I was kicked in the gut by an angry horse.   I've felt that pain in my gut constantly every since.   But on top of that, moments later, the realization that everyone I know and love and care about....  and how many other strangers who listen to me....  have lost their bitcoin in this as well....   and I've pretty much not stopped crying since Friday.    Even though I have been at the office, and I have put on a normal face for people...    That's why you haven't seen me on the air.     I have to regain my composure, get it together, get my head and my thoughts together, determine where to go from here, and what to say to the audience.

The worst is facing all the people I love most in my life....  and telling them what happened.... one by one.    They trusted my advice without hesitation.    And now I have to tell them what happened.    I suspect that nothing that could happen to me in my life will ever cause me as much pain as I am experiencing right now....  just thinking of how I will tell them.   These are not techie geeks like you guys.   These are normal people.   They are not to blame.   And, yes, in hindsight, I should have known better.   Hindsight is so 20/20.



I am praying for you and the entire community Bruce. All of this hurts so bad. We will get through all this and persevere, we ALL just have to get smarter, and we are more than capable of doing so.

LEASE THIS SIGNATURE OUT WEEKLY/MONTHLY.

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August 03, 2011, 09:12:11 PM
 #64

Quote
This was the oldest, longest standing bitcoin eWallet site in existence.   It had a strong record of stability.   It had been around nearly since the beginning of bitcoin itself.    People who trusted using an eWallet at all...  trusted it.   It had 10s of thousands of account holders.   Some of the smartest, most reputable, long-standing bitcoin community leaders used it.

So, before you "trusted" your money to mybitcoin.com, recommended to personal friends that they trust "mybitcoin.com", and recommended mybitcoin.com to people online, you spent +/- $2000 to fly down and meet the people behind it ... right.

I think you need to look up the word trust.

The second day I got into bitcoin I knew it mybitcoin.com was bad news and pulled everything out of mybitcoin.com.

The damage you have done to bitcoin is immeasurable.

Yeah I expected more from Bruce from a security stand point. I do remember him emphasizing securing your passwords for multiple websites that are sensitive in nature that relate to bitcoin. Why he would leave an open door to be taken advantage of like this I cannot understand especially with an amount of bitcoin as 25k.

That's the equivalent of taking $250,000 of your own money and saying let me store it in someone else's bank account in which they have the authority to access the funds at will and I trust them.

No one in their right mind would ever let some unknown/faceless person you never met store your $250k in THEIR bank account. And on top of that the recommending of using the same process to others to store their bitcoins and countless worth in dollars is like 10 times worse.

The first thing I would have done is taken the 25k bitcoins and broken them up into 1k lots and stored them in separate wallets on separate jump drives that have duplicates store off site of where I am at locked up in a safe (not the bank of course).

Decentralization of the storage of your bitcoins is probably the best idea one can use to protect their investment.

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 ██████    ▐▓▓▓▓▌,     ▄█▓▓▓▌    ██████─
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           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
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August 03, 2011, 09:25:24 PM
 #65

Quote
This was the oldest, longest standing bitcoin eWallet site in existence.   It had a strong record of stability.   It had been around nearly since the beginning of bitcoin itself.    People who trusted using an eWallet at all...  trusted it.   It had 10s of thousands of account holders.   Some of the smartest, most reputable, long-standing bitcoin community leaders used it.

So, before you "trusted" your money to mybitcoin.com, recommended to personal friends that they trust "mybitcoin.com", and recommended mybitcoin.com to people online, you spent +/- $2000 to fly down and meet the people behind it ... right.

I think you need to look up the word trust.

The second day I got into bitcoin I knew it mybitcoin.com was bad news and pulled everything out of mybitcoin.com.

The damage you have done to bitcoin is immeasurable.

Yeah I expected more from Bruce from a security stand point. I do remember him emphasizing securing your passwords for multiple websites that are sensitive in nature that relate to bitcoin. Why he would leave an open door to be taken advantage of like this I cannot understand especially with an amount of bitcoin as 25k.

That's the equivalent of taking $250,000 of your own money and saying let me store it in someone else's bank account in which they have the authority to access the funds at will and I trust them.

No one in their right mind would ever let some unknown/faceless person you never met store your $250k in THEIR bank account. And on top of that the recommending of using the same process to others to store their bitcoins and countless worth in dollars is like 10 times worse.

The first thing I would have done is taken the 25k bitcoins and broken them up into 1k lots and stored them in separate wallets on separate jump drives that have duplicates store off site of where I am at locked up in a safe (not the bank of course).

Decentralization of the storage of your bitcoins is probably the best idea one can use to protect their investment.

Agreed
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August 04, 2011, 12:54:28 AM
 #66

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Yeah I expected more from Bruce from a security stand point.

After mtgox, there is no excuse for this ... heck even before mtgox there was no excuse. It's basic common sense ... something a lot of people seem to be missing.

There is  reason his videos have so little viewership ... watch one if you can stand it for more than a few minutes.  It's like the blind leading the blind.

People like this need to be weeded out of bitcoin for it to succeed ... and that's exactly whats happening.

Bitcoin has enough hurdles to pass before true widespread adoption can be achieved.

Of course if you listen to Bruce, Shell stations will be accepting bitcoins any day now.  On the contrary a lot has to happen before that is possible.

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August 04, 2011, 01:56:48 AM
 #67

Quote
Yeah I expected more from Bruce from a security stand point.

After mtgox, there is no excuse for this ... heck even before mtgox there was no excuse. It's basic common sense ... something a lot of people seem to be missing.

There is  reason his videos have so little viewership ... watch one if you can stand it for more than a few minutes.  It's like the blind leading the blind.

People like this need to be weeded out of bitcoin for it to succeed ... and that's exactly whats happening.

Bitcoin has enough hurdles to pass before true widespread adoption can be achieved.

Of course if you listen to Bruce, Shell stations will be accepting bitcoins any day now.  On the contrary a lot has to happen before that is possible.


+1

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    d██████████████████████████████æ   
  ,████²█████████████████████████████, 
 ,█████  ╙████████████████████╨  █████y
 ██████    `████████████████`    ██████
║██████       Ñ███████████`      ███████
███████         ╩██████Ñ         ███████
███████    ▐▄     ²██╩     a▌    ███████
╢██████    ▐▓█▄          ▄█▓▌    ███████
 ██████    ▐▓▓▓▓▌,     ▄█▓▓▓▌    ██████─
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓█,,▄▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
           ▐▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▌          
    ▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓─  
     ²▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓╩    
        ▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀       
           ²▀▀▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▓▀▀`          
                   ²²²                 
███████████████████████████████████████

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August 08, 2011, 12:09:56 PM
 #68

MyBitcoin.com USERS HAD BITCOIN STOLEN. They are returning a portion 49% of them to you: Not sure where to send them? CALL ME. 646-580-0022
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August 08, 2011, 03:10:04 PM
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This was the oldest, longest standing bitcoin eWallet site in existence.   It had a strong record of stability.   It had been around nearly since the beginning of bitcoin itself.    People who trusted using an eWallet at all...  trusted it.   It had 10s of thousands of account holders.   Some of the smartest, most reputable, long-standing bitcoin community leaders used it.

So, before you "trusted" your money to mybitcoin.com, recommended to personal friends that they trust "mybitcoin.com", and recommended mybitcoin.com to people online, you spent +/- $2000 to fly down and meet the people behind it ... right.

I think you need to look up the word trust.

The second day I got into bitcoin I knew it mybitcoin.com was bad news and pulled everything out of mybitcoin.com.

The damage you have done to bitcoin is immeasurable.

WOW man you are a MASTER of the obvious after the fact quattro.

I for one MUST hear more from you on a daily basis.  RUN (don't walk) and setup a video podcast immediately.  In it you can tell us all the news (like a week later) and tell us how you knew all along how it was going to work out.  Oh here is a suggestion you can hold a conference just like bruce in NYC but have it like 2 weeks later and tell us all that he might possibly do wrong in his conference that you "knew was gonna happen"  I know i would sign up and be there because i just LOVE YOU MAN.

Your words are just so poetic.  Like when you asked if Bruce had flown down to meet the people before he put his money in.  Wow I am so proud of you.  Man I am sure Bruce never thought of that months after the fact. Since you said in the quote above you "pulled everything out of mybitcoin" I can only assume you took your own perfect advice and took a plane there before you ever put money in.  So tell us master of the obvious when you met the people behind mybitcoin what were they like?  What made you put bitcoins in mybitcoin in the first place?

Looking forward to your conference and podcast creations quattro  ... coming soon I hope ....
 
Solarpower





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August 08, 2011, 11:23:56 PM
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MyBitcoin.com USERS HAD BITCOIN STOLEN. They are returning a portion 49% of them to you: Not sure where to send them? CALL ME. 646-580-0022

They weren't stolen, you gave them away.

Bitcoins are P2P currency, that means you don't store them in a centralized location like traditional currency.

Don't tell people to send them anywhere.  That's more of the blind leading the blind.

If you can't secure a machine and protect a single file, you have no business participating in bitcoin at this stage.

The time will come for non-technical participants, but it's not  now.

Let me see if I got Bruce's recommendation right ... "Hi Dad, you won't believe this new currency, it's strength is that it's peer to peer.  But here, store this p2p currency in a centralized location with a complete stranger."


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August 08, 2011, 11:30:18 PM
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This was the oldest, longest standing bitcoin eWallet site in existence.   It had a strong record of stability.   It had been around nearly since the beginning of bitcoin itself.    People who trusted using an eWallet at all...  trusted it.   It had 10s of thousands of account holders.   Some of the smartest, most reputable, long-standing bitcoin community leaders used it.

So, before you "trusted" your money to mybitcoin.com, recommended to personal friends that they trust "mybitcoin.com", and recommended mybitcoin.com to people online, you spent +/- $2000 to fly down and meet the people behind it ... right.

I think you need to look up the word trust.

The second day I got into bitcoin I knew it mybitcoin.com was bad news and pulled everything out of mybitcoin.com.

The damage you have done to bitcoin is immeasurable.

WOW man you are a MASTER of the obvious after the fact quattro.

I for one MUST hear more from you on a daily basis.  RUN (don't walk) and setup a video podcast immediately.  In it you can tell us all the news (like a week later) and tell us how you knew all along how it was going to work out.  Oh here is a suggestion you can hold a conference just like bruce in NYC but have it like 2 weeks later and tell us all that he might possibly do wrong in his conference that you "knew was gonna happen"  I know i would sign up and be there because i just LOVE YOU MAN.

Your words are just so poetic.  Like when you asked if Bruce had flown down to meet the people before he put his money in.  Wow I am so proud of you.  Man I am sure Bruce never thought of that months after the fact. Since you said in the quote above you "pulled everything out of mybitcoin" I can only assume you took your own perfect advice and took a plane there before you ever put money in.  So tell us master of the obvious when you met the people behind mybitcoin what were they like?  What made you put bitcoins in mybitcoin in the first place?

Looking forward to your conference and podcast creations quattro  ... coming soon I hope ....
 
Solarpower








I have no desire to explain basic common sense to people who have none.

At this stage, I'm merely stating the obvious because Bruce and others are pretending that the blame doesn't rest 100% with them.

It's like handing your car keys to a car thief ... you can whine all day long about how evil the car thief is, but in the end, you're the idiot that handed them your keys.

If I was making recommendations to non-technical users to give thousands, if not tens of thousands of dollars to a complete stranger in a foreign country, and I was pretending to be an expert with my own show, you can bet your ass I'd at least meet the person behind the company before doing so.  You don't have to suspect they're a thief, they can be incompetent, or just lazy.

As it stands, I'm an individual making recommendations to no one, knowing full well what my own risks are.


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