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Question: Should BitBet refund snackman's 10 BTC? (and all other victims' losses)
Yes - 211 (75.1%)
No - 70 (24.9%)
Total Voters: 281

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Author Topic: BitBet Stole ~$7,000 from me (10 BTC)  (Read 57622 times)
snackman
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November 19, 2013, 07:42:00 PM
 #1

I recently lost 10 bitcoin to a clusterfuck of poor service on the parts of Bets of Bitcoin and Bitbet.

I bet 10 bitcoin on this bet: http://bitbet.us/bet/591/bitcoin-price-to-rise-above-750-usd/

However, I transferred the 10 bitcoin from Bets of Bitcoin, which neglected to include a transaction fee (and gave me no option to do so), resulting in my transaction being delayed for ~24 hours: https://blockchain.info/tx/2af75fb4e50a14bf247575bf426615d01f9d6db4d88dc0668d27c88259f68691

As a result, due to this unfair technicality in Bitbet's rules: http://bitbet.us/faq/#151, I am now out 10 bitcoin. Adding insult to injury, the mod graced me with this snarky retort: "Unconfirmed bets are not refunded. Kindly see FAQ, and include tx fees next time. Think of the miners!"... More like "think of our pockets which our now 10 ill-begotten bitcoin richer."

If we are going to build an ecosystem that can support and serve the mainstream whose attention bitcoin has recently achieved, poor user experiences like this should not (and need not) happen.

I'd appreciate any advice on how to solicit/enact the refund of my stolen (I do think this is the appropriate term) coins.

If you feel so inclined, tweet to Bitbet that they should refund my coins: https://twitter.com/BitBets "@Bitbets It's unfair to keep @Snack_Man's 10 BTC that was sent to 13EW8oUL5mzLiBbYpZouNqjNsFhabiSoeX. Refund them!"

TL;DR: I lost a substantial amount of money to Bets of Bitcoin / Bitbet for no good reason. Beware of Bets of Bitcoin's lack of transaction fee on withdrawals and Bitbet's draconian, scammy rules.

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MPOE-PR
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November 19, 2013, 08:30:11 PM
 #2

I recently lost 10 bitcoin to a clusterfuck of poor service on the parts of Bets of Bitcoin and Bitbet.

I bet 10 bitcoin on this bet: http://bitbet.us/bet/591/bitcoin-price-to-rise-above-750-usd/

However, I transferred the 10 bitcoin from Bets of Bitcoin, which neglected to include a transaction fee (and gave me no option to do so), resulting in my transaction being delayed for ~24 hours: https://blockchain.info/tx/2af75fb4e50a14bf247575bf426615d01f9d6db4d88dc0668d27c88259f68691

As a result, due to this unfair technicality in Bitbet's rules: http://bitbet.us/faq/#151, I am now out 10 bitcoin. Adding insult to injury, the mod graced me with this snarky retort: "Unconfirmed bets are not refunded. Kindly see FAQ, and include tx fees next time. Think of the miners!"... More like "think of our pockets which our now 10 ill-begotten bitcoin richer."

If we are going to build an ecosystem that can support and serve the mainstream whose attention bitcoin has recently achieved, poor user experiences like this should not (and need not) happen.

I'd appreciate any advice on how to solicit/enact the refund of my stolen (I do think this is the appropriate term) coins.

If you feel so inclined, tweet to Bitbet that they should refund my coins: https://twitter.com/BitBets "@Bitbets It's unfair to keep @Snack_Man's 10 BTC that was sent to 13EW8oUL5mzLiBbYpZouNqjNsFhabiSoeX. Refund them!"

TL;DR: I lost a substantial amount of money to Bets of Bitcoin / Bitbet for no good reason. Beware of Bets of Bitcoin's lack of transaction fee on withdrawals and Bitbet's draconian (read: dumb) rules.

Failing to use tx fees is mooching. Using a (notoriously inept) "service" that fails to use tx fees is also mooching. Placing a bet when the resolution is imminent is dangerous. Doing so without a tx fee is suicidal. The rules governing this possibility are in BitBet's FAQ.

It is unfortunate that you deemed it alright to wager your BTC with a service whose guidelines you had not read, and before you had grasped the concepts of transactions and confirmations in the first place. That you made these choices, however, is not anybody else's concern.

My Credentials  | THE BTC Stock Exchange | I have my very own anthology! | Use bitcointa.lk, it's like this one but better.
snackman
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November 19, 2013, 08:48:46 PM
 #3

Failing to use tx fees is mooching. Using a (notoriously inept) "service" that fails to use tx fees is also mooching. Placing a bet when the resolution is imminent is dangerous. Doing so without a tx fee is suicidal. The rules governing this possibility are in BitBet's FAQ.

It is unfortunate that you deemed it alright to wager your BTC with a service whose guidelines you had not read, and before you had grasped the concepts of transactions and confirmations in the first place. That you made these choices, however, is not anybody else's concern.

My post doesn't suggest that I don't grasp the concepts of transactions and confirmations - to say so is beside the point (and insulting). What I didn't understand was Bets of Bitcoin's ineptness. I see your 'caveat emptor', 'screw you noob' mentality displayed much too often by the Bitcoin community (and technically proficient humans in general), which would be better served by welcoming and supporting those with less knowledge.

I don't dispute that the rules governing the possibility are in BitBet's FAQ (and in fact linked the rules in my post, which you apparently didn't read), but I do dispute that the rule in question is a just one.

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November 19, 2013, 10:32:34 PM
 #4

What else should they do?! As long as a transaction is not in a block, it could be double spent away. I agree that it is not a nice way to deal with this issue, but you are free to use their "service". I sure didn't and I know why.

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November 19, 2013, 10:36:14 PM
 #5

Sounds like bitbet is taking advantage of it's customers. I don't see how it's possibly justified to just keep all 10 bitcoins, it's still slimy and unprofessional even if it is in the FAQ. And if the service is in fact notoriously inept, then the blame for that still falls largely on the service and not the customers who get taken like suckers. The thing to do as I see it is to alert other customers to the service's shadiness and urge the service to resolve the situation and improve their policies. Chastising the customer for getting taken doesn't really help.
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November 19, 2013, 10:41:40 PM
 #6

What else should they do?! As long as a transaction is not in a block, it could be double spent away. I agree that it is not a noce way to deal with this issue, but you are free to use their "service". I sure didn't and I know why.

I don't see how it would be any skin off their back to return transfers that are confirmed by the network post-bet closing. The 1% fee that they deduct for bets arriving after bet satisfaction isn't unreasonable, and could be applied to this situation as well. As far as I can tell, the difference between bet closing and bet satisfaction is immaterial except for their inside accounting/business practices (and perhaps so that they can poach the coins). A "benefit" to users of the site is that the moderators have a clear incentive - all unconfirmed bet transfers - to close bets ASAP.

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November 19, 2013, 10:48:45 PM
 #7

I joined Bitbet's IRC channel to seek a solution to my problem before the bet closed (seeing that the transaction hadn't been picked up by the network) and was treated very rudely, similar to MPOE-PR's response but with more ad hominem.

The silly thing is that if they didn't have these shady policies and made a few usability adjustments their service could be much more popular.

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November 19, 2013, 10:52:26 PM
 #8

My post doesn't suggest that I don't grasp the concepts of transactions and confirmations - to say so is beside the point (and insulting). What I didn't understand was Bets of Bitcoin's ineptness. I see your 'caveat emptor', 'screw you noob' mentality displayed much too often by the Bitcoin community (and technically proficient humans in general), which would be better served by welcoming and supporting those with less knowledge.

I don't dispute that the rules governing the possibility are in BitBet's FAQ (and in fact linked the rules in my post, which you apparently didn't read), but I do dispute that the rule in question is a just one.

That the concepts weren't grasped was inferred from the suggestion that there is something unjust about the rule, and that a service has any obligation to remedy the fact that a user failed to include a tx fee. It's not meant as an insult, it's meant to explain to you how and why the steps you took were taken at great risk to your BTC.

You weren't caught in some occult and unknowable coincidence that was out of your hands. You either didn't make sure you understood the basics of using bitcoin, or else you decided not to care. In either case, it is you that will have to adjust (and I do earnestly hope that you do; there are a lot of resources on this very forum, on IRC, and around the web that can help).


And if the service is in fact notoriously inept

Learn to read.

At any rate, this isn't a chastisement. If you fuck up to this degree, you're stuck having fucked up.

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November 19, 2013, 11:05:04 PM
 #9

My post doesn't suggest that I don't grasp the concepts of transactions and confirmations - to say so is beside the point (and insulting). What I didn't understand was Bets of Bitcoin's ineptness. I see your 'caveat emptor', 'screw you noob' mentality displayed much too often by the Bitcoin community (and technically proficient humans in general), which would be better served by welcoming and supporting those with less knowledge.

I don't dispute that the rules governing the possibility are in BitBet's FAQ (and in fact linked the rules in my post, which you apparently didn't read), but I do dispute that the rule in question is a just one.

That the concepts weren't grasped was inferred from the suggestion that there is something unjust about the rule, and that a service has any obligation to remedy the fact that a user failed to include a tx fee. It's not meant as an insult, it's meant to explain to you how and why the steps you took were taken at great risk to your BTC.

You weren't caught in some occult and unknowable coincidence that was out of your hands. You either didn't make sure you understood the basics of using bitcoin, or else you decided not to care. In either case, it is you that will have to adjust (and I do earnestly hope that you do; there are a lot of resources on this very forum, on IRC, and around the web that can help).

Transaction fee present or not, the rule is unjust because it keeps customers' bitcoin for no good reason. The fact that my failure to include a transaction fee has to be 'remedied' (your word choice is an unfair use of rhetoric - are you connected to Bitbet in any way?) is only due to Bitbet's unfair policy. Furthermore, the blame for the lack of transaction fee on my transfer resides solely with Bets of Bitcoin (who have yet to respond to my email saying as much, btw).

Your so-called 'earnest' hope that I 'adjust' smacks of still more self-righteous condescension.

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November 19, 2013, 11:06:48 PM
 #10

My post doesn't suggest that I don't grasp the concepts of transactions and confirmations - to say so is beside the point (and insulting). What I didn't understand was Bets of Bitcoin's ineptness. I see your 'caveat emptor', 'screw you noob' mentality displayed much too often by the Bitcoin community (and technically proficient humans in general), which would be better served by welcoming and supporting those with less knowledge.

I don't dispute that the rules governing the possibility are in BitBet's FAQ (and in fact linked the rules in my post, which you apparently didn't read), but I do dispute that the rule in question is a just one.

That the concepts weren't grasped was inferred from the suggestion that there is something unjust about the rule, and that a service has any obligation to remedy the fact that a user failed to include a tx fee. It's not meant as an insult, it's meant to explain to you how and why the steps you took were taken at great risk to your BTC.


What's the actual reason for BitBet to steal the coins in this situation ? "You're screwed", as it is written in the FAQ, is not a proper answer.
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November 19, 2013, 11:14:22 PM
 #11

[...]are you connected to Bitbet in any way?
Well, bitbet is owned and operated by Mircea Popescu, the self proclaimed mastermind of all that is Bitcoin and prowd owner overlord employer of MPOE-PR. Roll Eyes

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November 19, 2013, 11:20:11 PM
 #12

[...]are you connected to Bitbet in any way?
Well, bitbet is owned and operated by Mircea Popescu, the self proclaimed mastermind of all that is Bitcoin and prowd owner overlord employer of MPOE-PR. Roll Eyes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2MPoqqzwdY

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November 19, 2013, 11:26:25 PM
 #13

What's the actual reason for BitBet to steal the coins in this situation ? "You're screwed", as it is written in the FAQ, is not a proper answer.

Explaining to users quite amply and repeatedly that going against sense and acting in a particularly risky manner is not wise and will not result in refunds, and acting accordingly, has nothing in common with stealing.

Moreover:

If you want to use the service you'll have to read and understand. Operators that bend the rules to fix your mistakes for you can't meanwhile be publicly traded and held. The policy's not going away, but you can certainly prevent yourself from making totally unnecessary mistakes.

Transaction fee present or not, the rule is unjust because it keeps customers' bitcoin for no good reason. The fact that my failure to include a transaction fee has to be 'remedied' (your word choice is an unfair use of rhetoric - are you connected to Bitbet in any way?) is only due to Bitbet's unfair policy. Furthermore, the blame for the lack of transaction fee on my transfer resides solely with Bets of Bitcoin (who have yet to respond to my email saying as much, btw).

Your so-called 'earnest' hope that I 'adjust' smacks of still more self-righteous condescension.

Sigh. I understand that it's hard not to take it personally when you've lost BTC, but no, seriously, if you're into BTC I think it'd be great if you spent the time and the energy (this isn't "condescension", again; it takes a lot of time and energy, far more than most people are used to expending, to wisely and correctly handle Bitcoin, especially with a zillion "services" out there run by the unskilled who won't tell people what they've done wrong, and instead try to band-aid over things with "being nice" until they inevitably fail and take everyone's coins with them) to get up to speed.

I'm "connected" to BitBet inasmuch as I represent MPEx here on the forums, and the owner co-owns BitBet itself. I see that you already talked to actual mods on IRC.

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November 20, 2013, 01:11:52 AM
 #14

I'm "connected" to BitBet inasmuch as I represent MPEx here on the forums, and the owner co-owns BitBet itself. I see that you already talked to actual mods on IRC.
It's disingenuous for you to join this conversation without explicitly stating that you represent Bitbet (which your statement leaves no doubt of - in spite of the quotes around "connected"). No one in the IRC would declare their association with Bitbet, so no - I did not speak to "actual mods" on IRC.

Sigh. I understand that it's hard not to take it personally when you've lost BTC, but no, seriously [...]
To suggest that I'm "taking it personally" is to sidestep and downplay the issue at hand: namely that your site's policy is unjust and disreputable.

[...] with a zillion "services" out there run by the unskilled who won't tell people what they've done wrong, and instead try to band-aid over things with "being nice" until they inevitably fail and take everyone's coins with them [...]
This is irrelevant.

What's the actual reason for BitBet to steal the coins in this situation ? "You're screwed", as it is written in the FAQ, is not a proper answer.

Explaining to users quite amply and repeatedly that going against sense and acting in a particularly risky manner is not wise and will not result in refunds, and acting accordingly, has nothing in common with stealing.

You still haven't explained the reason that Bitbet steals the coins - I only went "against sense" and acted in a "particularly risky manner" in the context of your site's nonsensical, predatory policy.

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November 20, 2013, 01:18:26 AM
 #15

I noticed more than a few bets with incorrect resolution dates at BitBet,

which they do not change or fix. Really have to read the fine print with these folks.

I love the "tough shit" attitude- not what anybody would want to hear when expressing a grievance.
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November 20, 2013, 01:24:22 AM
 #16

What's the actual reason for BitBet to steal the coins in this situation ? "You're screwed", as it is written in the FAQ, is not a proper answer.

Explaining to users quite amply and repeatedly that going against sense and acting in a particularly risky manner is not wise and will not result in refunds, and acting accordingly, has nothing in common with stealing.

You still haven't explained the reason that Bitbet steals the coins - I only went "against sense" and acted in a "particularly risky manner" in the context of your site's nonsensical, predatory policy.

I sincerely have no idea why someone puts bitcoin in that place after seeing that rule.

If a couple of pools were interested in fucking up MP's reputation, they could start taking longer to include transactions into blocks if bitbet addresses are involved. Just take care to not wait for way too many blocks, otherwise the pool's reputation get fucked.
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November 20, 2013, 12:50:06 PM
 #17

I sincerely have no idea why someone puts bitcoin in that place after seeing that rule.

If a couple of pools were interested in fucking up MP's reputation, they could start taking longer to include transactions into blocks if bitbet addresses are involved. Just take care to not wait for way too many blocks, otherwise the pool's reputation get fucked.

Why do people who have no idea about anything (such as you) feel the need to prove it in writing? Go start a pool, fail, then see why the pools that succeed don't fuck with the Central Bank of Bitcoin.

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November 20, 2013, 12:57:58 PM
 #18

I sincerely have no idea why someone puts bitcoin in that place after seeing that rule.

If a couple of pools were interested in fucking up MP's reputation, they could start taking longer to include transactions into blocks if bitbet addresses are involved. Just take care to not wait for way too many blocks, otherwise the pool's reputation get fucked.

Why do people who have no idea about anything (such as you) feel the need to prove it in writing? Go start a pool, fail, then see why the pools that succeed don't fuck with the Central Bank of Bitcoin.

So your reply is that stealing coins is fine ? Central Bank of Bitcoin, lol

It is cool that even trying to make this reply as stupid as I could, yours is still way ahead in the stupidness level. Calling names doesn't get issues fixed, darling.
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November 20, 2013, 08:40:05 PM
 #19

You still haven't explained the reason that Bitbet steals the coins - I only went "against sense" and acted in a "particularly risky manner" in the context of your site's nonsensical, predatory policy.

MPOE-PR, please explain Bitbet's rationale for the policy.

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November 20, 2013, 09:13:32 PM
 #20

This is stealing and the behavior of the owners/operators is outrageous, in my opinion. That policy is completely unjustifiable and I hope nobody uses this site until it's changed.
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November 20, 2013, 09:16:36 PM
 #21

This is stealing and the behavior of the owners/operators is outrageous, in my opinion. That policy is completely unjustifiable and I hope nobody uses this site until it's changed.

What's the best way to organize a boycott / raise awareness?

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November 20, 2013, 09:29:15 PM
 #22

Thank you OP for this thread. I will place my bets on other sites. This practice is shady as fuck.. Because even if you include a proper Fee the tx can be delayed quite some time at this moment

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November 20, 2013, 09:32:26 PM
 #23

Thank you OP for this thread. I will place my bets on other sites. This practice is shady as fuck.. Because even if you include a proper Fee the tx can be delayed quite some time at this moment

No problem - what other sites would you recommend (besides Bets of Bitcoin)?

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November 20, 2013, 09:43:37 PM
 #24

Right. Let's look at an example of this "I'm going to recklessly and stupidly throw my BTC around without the slightest clue of what I'm doing and then demand that the people who get hit with my projections fix my problems for me" at work:

Quote
23:20:00 dub: snackman: its unfortunate for you yes, perhaps you should try to understand what youa re dealing with next time

23:21:06 snackman: dub That's an unnecessarily moralistic approach, and furthermore a hallmark of self-affected geeks' fear/loathing of the mainstream, which I think is misplaced in this instance

23:21:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12500 @ 0.0008353 = 10.4413 BTC [-]

23:21:24 mike_c: snackman: here it is without snark. say your bet lost. all you would have to do is send a different transaction with a fee that would get confirmed first and you didn't lose anything.

23:21:47 snackman: bitbets, if it would like to be a great service, should make itself easy to understand and operate, and not have stupid rules like this one

23:22:38 snackman: mike_c I don't understand

So that's:

1. Deciding you're ready for BTC either without knowing or without caring about transaction fees;
2. Deciding you're ready for betting without knowing or without caring about the way betting services work;
3. Betting when the resolution criteria being met was an imminent event;
4. Using Bets of Bitcoin without having done any due diligence, which would have revealed that they're pretty much useless, for reasons including their lack of using tx fees;
5. Not reading or not caring about BitBet's FAQ and the open, fully explained, warnings about the rare potential for this very situation on this very forum;
6. Insisting that it's other people who are stupid, such that those who were attempting to help you out lost interest in your ranting.

That you have the gall to suggest that it's someone other than yourself that dropped the ball is pretty incredible.

What's the best way to organize a boycott / raise awareness?

Something like this perhaps.

This is stealing and the behavior of the owners/operators is outrageous, in my opinion. That policy is completely unjustifiable and I hope nobody uses this site until it's changed.

Back on planet Earth, the reason you've not been used is that you have yet to change. GLWT.

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November 20, 2013, 10:21:14 PM
 #25

This is stealing and the behavior of the owners/operators is outrageous, in my opinion. That policy is completely unjustifiable and I hope nobody uses this site until it's changed.

What's the best way to organize a boycott / raise awareness?

I don't know what you can do besides threads like this, maybe take it to the scam accusation thread. Put this thread or others in your signature perhaps, use word of mouth.

Thank you OP for this thread. I will place my bets on other sites. This practice is shady as fuck.. Because even if you include a proper Fee the tx can be delayed quite some time at this moment

No problem - what other sites would you recommend (besides Bets of Bitcoin)?

Predictious.com offers something similar although I've never used them.

This is stealing and the behavior of the owners/operators is outrageous, in my opinion. That policy is completely unjustifiable and I hope nobody uses this site until it's changed.

Back on planet Earth, the reason you've not been used is that you have yet to change. GLWT.

I probably shouldn't even ask, but what does this mean? I don't get it.

I don't use your service(s) and I'm not here to get people to use any of mine, I just don't like honest people being screwed and then insulted to boot. Bitbet keeping these coins, which did not count towards any bet, is akin to stealing. The policy is grossly unjust and unreasonable, and putting the policy in the FAQ doesn't make it any better. 

I've never been affected by this policy, but I won't stand for others being screwed by it and you can count me as someone who will never use Bitbet or any other related services. I hope others follow suit. You can go ahead and keep lobbing cryptic insults at me and others who weigh in on the situation but it doesn't make you or Bitbet look any better.
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November 20, 2013, 10:27:57 PM
 #26

Quote

1. Deciding you're ready for BTC either without knowing or without caring about transaction fees;
2. Deciding you're ready for betting without knowing or without caring about the way betting services work;
3. Betting when the resolution criteria being met was an imminent event;
4. Using Bets of Bitcoin without having done any due diligence, which would have revealed that they're pretty much useless, for reasons including their lack of using tx fees;
5. Not reading or not caring about BitBet's FAQ and the open, fully explained, warnings about the rare potential for this very situation on this very forum;
6. Insisting that it's other people who are stupid, such that those who were attempting to help you out lost interest in your ranting.


1.- BTC is a currency that has the option to send transactions without tx fees, that does not give you the right to keep his money.

2.- Betting services work in a way that you have to provide the bet and win in order to keep the money of the person that made the bet. If for some reason that was the user fault you failed to provide such bet, that does not give you the right to keep his money.

3.- If betting on an imminent event was that important the service provider should prevent it from being possible. So again, that does not give you the right to keep his money.

4.- Using a different betting service should be no reason for discrimination or give you the right to keep his money.

5.- FAQs are not user agreements. And even if this was in the user agreement, it still makes it illegal. The user bought a bet, but no bet was provided. After the transaction was confirmed you have no reason to keep the BTC since you didn't provide the bet. If the FAQs said that if you failed to provide tx fees you would be entitled to own his properties it would be as illegal as this. User's agreements are made in order to protect the provider from certain risks, but failing to read FAQs is no excuse for keeping his money. And since the term does not condition the receiving of such money this action is a theft. Why? Imagine this:

I make a website called tvrepairs.com. I advertise that I will fix any issue for 200 usd. In the user agreement at the bottom I put that if you don't call the technician by the name charles he will be charged an extra 1000 usd.

If the terms you apply to your customers harms them economically in an event that doesn't affect you economically then you are scamming people. I hope you realize this and act accordingly, to my point of view, he was stolen 6k usd.

6.- His ability to think or the fact that he call other people names does not give you the right to keep his money.


I'm hoping I'm clear enough for you to comprehend that. Even if the address from which his BTC where sent can't be the same than his receiving address, this should be sorted out with bets of bitcoin so that this user received his BTC back.

I would suggest the op to start a post in scam accusations or move this one there.

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November 20, 2013, 10:32:28 PM
 #27

Wow Snackman,

Thank you for raising awareness about this important issue. I'm sorry you had to pay the price of losing 10 BTC to frauds. Now the community knows. I hope this issue is resolved quickly. I would much prefer those who received your bitcoin simply return it to your address, since no services were rendered. It wouldn't seem right for a company to take 10 BTC after *no* services were rendered, and just say, "Oh well, it says in the fine print that we can steal from you. Sux! Lol!"

I just tweeted about it. Hopefully they will do what is right and return what is yours.
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November 20, 2013, 10:37:36 PM
 #28

Right. Let's look at an example of this "I'm going to recklessly and stupidly throw my BTC around without the slightest clue of what I'm doing and then demand that the people who get hit with my projections fix my problems for me" at work:

Quote
23:20:00 dub: snackman: its unfortunate for you yes, perhaps you should try to understand what youa re dealing with next time

23:21:06 snackman: dub That's an unnecessarily moralistic approach, and furthermore a hallmark of self-affected geeks' fear/loathing of the mainstream, which I think is misplaced in this instance

23:21:15 assbot: [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12500 @ 0.0008353 = 10.4413 BTC [-]

23:21:24 mike_c: snackman: here it is without snark. say your bet lost. all you would have to do is send a different transaction with a fee that would get confirmed first and you didn't lose anything.

23:21:47 snackman: bitbets, if it would like to be a great service, should make itself easy to understand and operate, and not have stupid rules like this one

23:22:38 snackman: mike_c I don't understand

I would disagree that I hit anyone with my "projections" [sic], and that in fact I was harmed by your site's unfair policy, which you have yet to explain the rationale for. Also, taking my statement "I don't understand" out of context is pretty low.

So that's:

1. Deciding you're ready for BTC either without knowing or without caring about transaction fees;
I know and care about transaction fees, but Bets of Bitcoin did not properly operate my transaction.

2. Deciding you're ready for betting without knowing or without caring about the way betting services work;
You are right: I made a mistake by assuming that I was dealing with a reputable institution.

3. Betting when the resolution criteria being met was an imminent event;
If your site allows betting, people will bet.

4. Using Bets of Bitcoin without having done any due diligence, which would have revealed that they're pretty much useless, for reasons including their lack of using tx fees;
I am much more disappointed with BitBet's conduct than Bets of Bitcoin's.

5. Not reading or not caring about BitBet's FAQ and the open, fully explained, warnings about the rare potential for this very situation on this very forum;
How much bitcoin has BitBet taken in from this practice?

6. Insisting that it's other people who are stupid, such that those who were attempting to help you out lost interest in your ranting.
I have not insulted anyone.

That you have the gall to suggest that it's someone other than yourself that dropped the ball is pretty incredible.
You are outrageous.

I notice you deleted your erroneous suggestion that I cancel my bet by sending more bitcoin to you, which would not have arrived before bet closure and would also have been stolen.

.
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MPOE-PR
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November 20, 2013, 10:37:49 PM
 #29

Wow Snackman,

Thank you for raising awareness about this important issue. I'm sorry you had to pay the price of losing 10 BTC to frauds. Now the community knows. I hope this issue is resolved quickly. I would much prefer those who received your bitcoin simply return it to your address, since no services were rendered. It wouldn't seem right for a company to take 10 BTC after *no* services were rendered, and just say, "Oh well, it says in the fine print that we can steal from you. Sux! Lol!"

I just tweeted about it. Hopefully they will do what is right and return what is yours.

Quoting this inept sockpuppeting for the future lols.

You fucktards, seriously. Get a life and more importantly: get over yourselves.

I probably shouldn't even ask, but what does this mean? I don't get it.

It's a jab at your virginity.

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November 20, 2013, 10:43:57 PM
 #30

This is stealing and the behavior of the owners/operators is outrageous, in my opinion. That policy is completely unjustifiable and I hope nobody uses this site until it's changed.

What's the best way to organize a boycott / raise awareness?

In addition to the suggestions in this thread; under each bet on bitbet, there is an unmoderated discussion page where you can talk about this issue with other bitbettors.
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November 20, 2013, 10:54:32 PM
 #31

- MPOE-PR is the ONLY one in this thread suggesting that Bitbet is right in keeping the stolen money.
- MPOE-PR has some association with Bitbet, and this is likely the reason he is defending it.
- Bitbet has blatantly stolen $6,000 of BTC that does not belong to them.
- I would suggest finding out the details of who owns Bitbet and threatening a suit if they don't return the BTC.
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November 20, 2013, 11:00:13 PM
 #32

This is stealing and the behavior of the owners/operators is outrageous, in my opinion. That policy is completely unjustifiable and I hope nobody uses this site until it's changed.

What's the best way to organize a boycott / raise awareness?


If you want to raise awareness, just link to the BitBet FAQ, which is public, which you should have read before sending 10 btc anywhere.  

The inability to own one's actions on this forum is at absurd proportions.  read the rules of gaming websites before you place your bets.  is that so insane?

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November 20, 2013, 11:03:16 PM
 #33

bitbet won't last too long unless they change that rules and return the coins. They have a chance to get out of this gracefully.

mp might be saying it's all fine and dandy but it's not.

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November 20, 2013, 11:03:57 PM
 #34

Quote

1. Deciding you're ready for BTC either without knowing or without caring about transaction fees;
2. Deciding you're ready for betting without knowing or without caring about the way betting services work;
3. Betting when the resolution criteria being met was an imminent event;
4. Using Bets of Bitcoin without having done any due diligence, which would have revealed that they're pretty much useless, for reasons including their lack of using tx fees;
5. Not reading or not caring about BitBet's FAQ and the open, fully explained, warnings about the rare potential for this very situation on this very forum;
6. Insisting that it's other people who are stupid, such that those who were attempting to help you out lost interest in your ranting.


1.- BTC is a currency that has the option to send transactions without tx fees, that does not give you the right to keep his money.

2.- Betting services work in a way that you have to provide the bet and win in order to keep the money of the person that made the bet. If for some reason that was the user fault you failed to provide such bet, that does not give you the right to keep his money.

3.- If betting on an imminent event was that important the service provider should prevent it from being possible. So again, that does not give you the right to keep his money.

4.- Using a different betting service should be no reason for discrimination or give you the right to keep his money.

5.- FAQs are not user agreements. And even if this was in the user agreement, it still makes it illegal. The user bought a bet, but no bet was provided. After the transaction was confirmed you have no reason to keep the BTC since you didn't provide the bet. If the FAQs said that if you failed to provide tx fees you would be entitled to own his properties it would be as illegal as this. User's agreements are made in order to protect the provider from certain risks, but failing to read FAQs is no excuse for keeping his money. And since the term does not condition the receiving of such money this action is a theft. Why? Imagine this:

I make a website called tvrepairs.com. I advertise that I will fix any issue for 200 usd. In the user agreement at the bottom I put that if you don't call the technician by the name charles he will be charged an extra 1000 usd.

If the terms you apply to your customers harms them economically in an event that doesn't affect you economically then you are scamming people. I hope you realize this and act accordingly, to my point of view, he was stolen 6k usd.

6.- His ability to think or the fact that he call other people names does not give you the right to keep his money.


I'm hoping I'm clear enough for you to comprehend that. Even if the address from which his BTC where sent can't be the same than his receiving address, this should be sorted out with bets of bitcoin so that this user received his BTC back.

I would suggest the op to start a post in scam accusations or move this one there.

+1 this sums the situation up very well.

I probably shouldn't even ask, but what does this mean? I don't get it.

It's a jab at your virginity.

Amazing. And companies let you represent them? Make sure you pass that gem of an insult on to teenage bullies.
freethink2013
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November 20, 2013, 11:05:18 PM
 #35

Wow Snackman,

Thank you for raising awareness about this important issue. I'm sorry you had to pay the price of losing 10 BTC to frauds. Now the community knows. I hope this issue is resolved quickly. I would much prefer those who received your bitcoin simply return it to your address, since no services were rendered. It wouldn't seem right for a company to take 10 BTC after *no* services were rendered, and just say, "Oh well, it says in the fine print that we can steal from you. Sux! Lol!"

I just tweeted about it. Hopefully they will do what is right and return what is yours.

Quoting this inept sockpuppeting for the future lols.

You fucktards, seriously. Get a life and more importantly: get over yourselves.

I probably shouldn't even ask, but what does this mean? I don't get it.

It's a jab at your virginity.

So if you want to bet 20 minutes before something and you include a transaction fee but it doesn't get enough confirmations, they can just keep it?

You are discrediting yourself and the business you represent with this crazy idea. Fuck you and everything you are involved with.
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November 20, 2013, 11:07:46 PM
 #36

This is stealing and the behavior of the owners/operators is outrageous, in my opinion. That policy is completely unjustifiable and I hope nobody uses this site until it's changed.

What's the best way to organize a boycott / raise awareness?


If you want to raise awareness, just link to the BitBet FAQ, which is public, which you should have read before sending 10 btc anywhere.  

The inability to own one's actions on this forum is at absurd proportions.  read the rules of gaming websites before you place your bets.  is that so insane?
If I pick up someone's wallet off the street, is it right for me to spend money from the credit card inside of it?

That's essentially what Bitbet is doing, except they know exactly who the money belongs to and have every opportunity to return it.  They can write in their FAQ that it is ok for them to kill anyone who loses a bet, but that doesn't make killing someone who loses a bet right or legal.
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November 20, 2013, 11:08:37 PM
 #37

This is stealing and the behavior of the owners/operators is outrageous, in my opinion. That policy is completely unjustifiable and I hope nobody uses this site until it's changed.

What's the best way to organize a boycott / raise awareness?


If you want to raise awareness, just link to the BitBet FAQ, which is public, which you should have read before sending 10 btc anywhere.  

The inability to own one's actions on this forum is at absurd proportions.  read the rules of gaming websites before you place your bets.  is that so insane?

And if pay pal decided to change their terms and conditions to say:

1. Any money sent will actually be sent to Peter Thiel.

Would that be legal.

I'd argue that these so called terms and conditions at bitbet aren't actually terms and conditions at all but a "FAQ" http://bitbet.us/faq/#151

In fact where are their terms and conditions? You can't just stick something in a faq and call it terms and conditions.
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November 20, 2013, 11:09:01 PM
 #38

This is stealing and the behavior of the owners/operators is outrageous, in my opinion. That policy is completely unjustifiable and I hope nobody uses this site until it's changed.

What's the best way to organize a boycott / raise awareness?


If you want to raise awareness, just link to the BitBet FAQ, which is public, which you should have read before sending 10 btc anywhere.  

The inability to own one's actions on this forum is at absurd proportions.  read the rules of gaming websites before you place your bets.  is that so insane?

BitBet's policy is insane.

FYI: deadweasel is associated with BitBet (below quoted from BitBet IRC transcript).

Quote
23:07:25deadweasel:yes, learn to read the manual before inserting coin*.
23:07:42snackman:deadweasel it's a dumb way to set up the website
23:08:01deadweasel:you're a dummy for not reading the rules. it's clear. i read them, i won lots.

.
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freethink2013
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November 20, 2013, 11:09:53 PM
 #39

This is stealing and the behavior of the owners/operators is outrageous, in my opinion. That policy is completely unjustifiable and I hope nobody uses this site until it's changed.

What's the best way to organize a boycott / raise awareness?


If you want to raise awareness, just link to the BitBet FAQ, which is public, which you should have read before sending 10 btc anywhere. 

The inability to own one's actions on this forum is at absurd proportions.  read the rules of gaming websites before you place your bets.  is that so insane?

No, BitBet's policy is insane.

FYI: deadweasel is associated with BitBet (below quoted from BitBet IRC transcript).

Quote
23:07:25deadweasel:yes, learn to read the manual before inserting coin*.
23:07:42snackman:deadweasel it's a dumb way to set up the website
23:08:01deadweasel:you're a dummy for not reading the rules. it's clear. i read them, i won lots.

Again that's their faq not their t&c. Did the op AGREE to the FAQ. Did he fuck.
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November 20, 2013, 11:12:56 PM
 #40

In addition to the suggestions in this thread; under each bet on bitbet, there is an unmoderated discussion page where you can talk about this issue with other bitbettors.

This is working admirably well. I think MP likes you even.

bitbet won't last too long unless they change that rules and return the coins. They have a chance to get out of this gracefully.

mp might be saying it's all fine and dandy but it's not.

BitBet will be here long after you're long gone. It's just the way these things work.

- MPOE-PR is the ONLY one in this thread suggesting that Bitbet is right in keeping the stolen money.
- MPOE-PR has some association with Bitbet, and this is likely the reason he is defending it.
- Bitbet has blatantly stolen $6,000 of BTC that does not belong to them.
- I would suggest finding out the details of who owns Bitbet and threatening a suit if they don't return the BTC.

Dude, seriously? He? Still? Lurk moar.

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November 20, 2013, 11:15:14 PM
 #41

In addition to the suggestions in this thread; under each bet on bitbet, there is an unmoderated discussion page where you can talk about this issue with other bitbettors.

This is working admirably well. I think MP likes you even.

bitbet won't last too long unless they change that rules and return the coins. They have a chance to get out of this gracefully.

mp might be saying it's all fine and dandy but it's not.

BitBet will be here long after you're long gone. It's just the way these things work.

Are you directly involved with the site?
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November 20, 2013, 11:19:11 PM
 #42

Are you directly involved with the site?

My involvement is basically that there was a group of idiots derping in this thread and I joined the fray. Why?

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November 20, 2013, 11:21:58 PM
 #43

Quote
BitBet will be here long after you're long gone. It's just the way these things work.

I wouldn't be so sure. Taking into consideration that the site is a .com it falls under US law, even though it is registered to a costa rican guy. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be so hard to take it down legally.

Quote
Domain Name: BITBET.COM
Registrar URL: http://www.godaddy.com
Updated Date: 2013-09-21 16:51:49
Creation Date: 2012-11-21 14:24:56
Registrar Expiration Date: 2015-11-21 14:24:56
Registrar: GoDaddy.com, LLC
Registrant Name: Rafael Chaves
Registrant Organization:
Registrant Street: Plaza Itskatzu
Registrant Street: Local  210
Registrant City: Escazu
Registrant State/Province: San Jose
Registrant Postal Code: 00000
Registrant Country: Costa Rica
Admin Name: Rafael Chaves
Admin Organization:
Admin Street: Plaza Itskatzu
Admin Street: Local  210
Admin City: Escazu
Admin State/Province: San Jose
Admin Postal Code: 00000
Admin Country: Costa Rica
Admin Phone: +0.50622288967
Admin Fax:
Admin Email: eldorado007@gmail.com
Tech Name: Rafael Chaves
Tech Organization:
Tech Street: Plaza Itskatzu
Tech Street: Local  210
Tech City: Escazu
Tech State/Province: San Jose
Tech Postal Code: 00000
Tech Country: Costa Rica
Tech Phone: +0.50622288967
Tech Fax:
Tech Email: eldorado007@gmail.com
Name Server: PDNS1.ULTRADNS.NET
Name Server: PDNS4.ULTRADNS.ORG
Name Server: PDNS6.ULTRADNS.CO.UK
Name Server: PDNS2.ULTRADNS.NET
Name Server: PDNS5.ULTRADNS.INFO
Name Server: PDNS3.ULTRADNS.ORG

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November 20, 2013, 11:24:52 PM
 #44

In addition to the suggestions in this thread; under each bet on bitbet, there is an unmoderated discussion page where you can talk about this issue with other bitbettors.

This is working admirably well. I think MP likes you even.

bitbet won't last too long unless they change that rules and return the coins. They have a chance to get out of this gracefully.

mp might be saying it's all fine and dandy but it's not.

BitBet will be here long after you're long gone. It's just the way these things work.

- MPOE-PR is the ONLY one in this thread suggesting that Bitbet is right in keeping the stolen money.
- MPOE-PR has some association with Bitbet, and this is likely the reason he is defending it.
- Bitbet has blatantly stolen $6,000 of BTC that does not belong to them.
- I would suggest finding out the details of who owns Bitbet and threatening a suit if they don't return the BTC.

Dude, seriously? He? Still? Lurk moar.

Thieves seldom prosper. You had to buy your trust. You have to rip people off at your betting site (don't say you're not connected) and your exchance is a ponzi, money laundering scheme. You literally can't do anything honestly.

Sue me. I could do with the discovery documents. A new age of bitcoin has come. People like you need to get out.  But you will be held accountable in the end. Scum
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November 20, 2013, 11:25:50 PM
 #45

I wouldn't be so sure. Taking into consideration that the site is a .com it falls under US law, even though it is registered to a costa rican guy. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be so hard to take it down legally.

O Mighty Money Morpheus, please have mercy with your takings down legally.

Are you as cool as the guy in the Matrix? Very original, seriously. Your mommy must be so proud....

PS. Great signature. Here's a thought: dweebs growing bud on the quiet should not be on the internet talking about "taking shit down legally". You're lucky nobody with any actual RL presence is bored enough, you know?

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November 20, 2013, 11:26:12 PM
 #46

Are you directly involved with the site?

My involvement is basically that there was a group of idiots derping in this thread and I joined the fray. Why?

Huge coincidence
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November 20, 2013, 11:33:16 PM
 #47

Thieves seldom prosper. You had to buy your trust. You have to rip people off at your betting site (don't say you're not connected) and your exchance is a ponzi, money laundering scheme. You literally can't do anything honestly.

Sue me. I could do with the discovery documents. A new age of bitcoin has come. People like you need to get out.  But you will be held accountable in the end. Scum

MP sez quote that shit so I do. Apparently he thinks you're very funny or something, I dunno.

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November 20, 2013, 11:35:57 PM
 #48

I wouldn't be so sure. Taking into consideration that the site is a .com it falls under US law, even though it is registered to a costa rican guy. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be so hard to take it down legally.

O Mighty Money Morpheus, please have mercy with your takings down legally.

Are you as cool as the guy in the Matrix? Very original, seriously. Your mommy must be so proud....

I'm just refuting some of your statements with logic, no need to put yourself so defensive. I don't even live in the US. I'm just doing this because I feel bad for the OP, but other than talking here I won't do more.

The OP could also check Chaves background and see if he is paying his taxes on his earnings in his country and file a money laundering complain with the authorities in costa rica. And I can keep on thinking in ways that could end a betting site, since by the looks of it I'm pretty sure the owners haven't made all of their legal homework, specially if you are submitting users to illegal terms.

PD: Still if you are not representative of them you shouldn't be defending them so badly; and if you are you should contact them and make them think this threw to see what they feel is right

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November 20, 2013, 11:41:08 PM
 #49

It's spelled through you know.

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November 20, 2013, 11:43:27 PM
 #50

Thieves seldom prosper. You had to buy your trust. You have to rip people off at your betting site (don't say you're not connected) and your exchance is a ponzi, money laundering scheme. You literally can't do anything honestly.

Sue me. I could do with the discovery documents. A new age of bitcoin has come. People like you need to get out.  But you will be held accountable in the end. Scum

MP sez quote that shit so I do. Apparently he thinks you're very funny or something, I dunno.

1. Stop pretending you are a woman
2. Stop pretending you are MPOE's PR executive
3. Stop eating so much you fat bastard

-----------------------

I looked at bitbet and liked the idea but a site that would rather rip someone off for 6k rather than build a customer base is no site at all.
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November 20, 2013, 11:48:00 PM
 #51

1. Stop pretending you are a woman
2. Stop pretending you are MPOE's PR executive
3. Stop eating so much you fat bastard

-----------------------

I looked at bitbet and liked the idea but a site that would rather rip someone off for 6k rather than build a customer base is no site at all.

Stop pretending you have a brain.

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November 20, 2013, 11:52:05 PM
 #52

This is stealing and the behavior of the owners/operators is outrageous, in my opinion. That policy is completely unjustifiable and I hope nobody uses this site until it's changed.

What's the best way to organize a boycott / raise awareness?


If you want to raise awareness, just link to the BitBet FAQ, which is public, which you should have read before sending 10 btc anywhere.  

The inability to own one's actions on this forum is at absurd proportions.  read the rules of gaming websites before you place your bets.  is that so insane?

BitBet's policy is insane.

FYI: deadweasel is associated with BitBet (below quoted from BitBet IRC transcript).

Quote
23:07:25deadweasel:yes, learn to read the manual before inserting coin*.
23:07:42snackman:deadweasel it's a dumb way to set up the website
23:08:01deadweasel:you're a dummy for not reading the rules. it's clear. i read them, i won lots.

I'm as associated as you, a user.  Only i read the rules.

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November 21, 2013, 12:03:02 AM
 #53

Please direct all further refund requests to BitBet's authorized refund handling agent, Mr. David Thorne, esq.

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November 21, 2013, 12:05:37 AM
 #54

Please direct all further refund requests to BitBet's authorized refund handling agent, Mr. David Thorne, esq.

Oh fuck, I lol'd.

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November 21, 2013, 12:18:51 AM
 #55

Please direct all further refund requests to BitBet's authorized refund handling agent, Mr. David Thorne, esq.

1. Stop pretending you are a woman
2. Stop pretending you are MPOE's PR executive
3. Stop eating so much you fat bastard

-----------------------

I looked at bitbet and liked the idea but a site that would rather rip someone off for 6k rather than build a customer base is no site at all.

Stop pretending you have a brain.

you're the bottom feeder here. fair enough there are lot of stupid people at this stage that a fat fuck like you can rip off. well done you are slightly more intelligent than an average moron.

the people i respect are the people can build a real, honest, profitable gambling site and exchange without the need to rip off and trick users.  You aren't capable of that. How does that feel?I know you pretend to not care and shroud it all in the users deserves what they get but KNOWING that you can't profit without ripping people off must at least cross your radar.

You're just a bottom feeder. A low level psychopath. Enjoy your 6 grand.
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November 21, 2013, 12:51:19 AM
 #56

you're the bottom feeder here. fair enough there are lot of stupid people at this stage that a fat fuck like you can rip off. well done you are slightly more intelligent than an average moron.

the people i respect are the people can build a real, honest, profitable gambling site and exchange without the need to rip off and trick users.  You aren't capable of that. How does that feel?I know you pretend to not care and shroud it all in the users deserves what they get but KNOWING that you can't profit without ripping people off must at least cross your radar.

You're just a bottom feeder. A low level psychopath. Enjoy your 6 grand.

Dude, lay off already. The rule is there because without it, scummy fucks just try to rip off the people that actually bet and undertake the risks by swooping in at the last minute.

The lulzy thing is, of course, that even WITH the rule scummy fucks try to rip off the people that actually bet and take the risks, by swooping in at the last minute. The only difference is that it doesn't work, and sometimes it doesn't work in such spectacular fireworky manner that the butthurt can be heard from outer space.

Except there's no sympathy for the hurt butt of a wanna-be rip-off that failed at it and got hurt. You know?

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November 21, 2013, 01:04:02 AM
 #57

I'm a little confused here, didn't he bet before the bet closed?  How does a transaction delay retroactively affect the time he placed his bet?
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November 21, 2013, 06:06:29 AM
 #58

If you want bitbet to end; make a better competitor. otherwise deal with it

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November 21, 2013, 07:05:26 AM
 #59

I'm as associated as you, a user.  Only i read the rules.
Quote
BitBet IRC chat logs, 1/5/2013:
14:13:24 deadweasel: when you come in here ignorant, and MP laws down the fucking law, and you don't like or don't agree, it's hard on the old self-importance gland.
14:13:24 Scrat: no homo?
14:13:26 ThickAsThieves: it's evident constantly
14:13:29 deadweasel: no doubt ThickAsThieves
14:13:33 deadweasel: no
14:13:33 mircea_popescu: no homo
I'd argue that your regular presence in the BitBet IRC for 10 months or more associates you more than the average user.


I'm glad there is also the 1% fee on refunds now (though I still think it should be much more).
Quote
BitBet IRC chat logs, 1/11/2013:
02:49:58 pankkake: everything is a scam
pankkake is also a regular in the BitBet IRC,

Please direct all further refund requests to BitBet's authorized refund handling agent, Mr. David Thorne, esq.

Oh fuck, I lol'd.
Quote
BitBet IRC chat logs, 4/26/2013:
16:16:26 davout: my intelligence is limited, but i do have enough to see when taking a step back is needed
as is davout.


I'm a little confused here, didn't he bet before the bet closed?  How does a transaction delay retroactively affect the time he placed his bet?
I'm also confused by this. Double spending is not a concern, with proper precaution (see this reddit thread). Rudimentary game theory makes it abundantly clear that I wasn't attempting to double spend a losing bet.


The rule is there because without it, scummy fucks just try to rip off the people that actually bet and undertake the risks by swooping in at the last minute.

The lulzy thing is, of course, that even WITH the rule scummy fucks try to rip off the people that actually bet and take the risks, by swooping in at the last minute. The only difference is that it doesn't work, and sometimes it doesn't work in such spectacular fireworky manner that the butthurt can be heard from outer space.

Except there's no sympathy for the hurt butt of a wanna-be rip-off that failed at it and got hurt. You know?
Your insinuation that I am a "scummy fuck" for betting on an available bet rings more than a bit hollow when you have my 10 BTC in your wallet. If you would like to make last-minute bets impossible on your site, institute a rule like Bets of Bitcoin: refund all bets made within some number of hours before bet closing.

Don't bait users into betting, steal their bet, and then call them "scummy fucks".

You should return the coins to all affected users and change your ridiculous policy.

.
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November 21, 2013, 07:25:06 AM
 #60


I'd argue that your regular presence in the BitBet IRC for 10 months or more associates you more than the average user.


It isn't BitBet IRC, it is #bitcoin-assets. The BitBet people just hang out there...

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November 21, 2013, 07:28:08 AM
 #61


I'd argue that your regular presence in the BitBet IRC for 10 months or more associates you more than the average user.


It isn't BitBet IRC, it is #bitcoin-assets. The BitBet people just hang out there...

Fair enough - the point is that they are "The BitBet people".

.
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November 21, 2013, 07:30:34 AM
 #62

I'm also confused by this. Double spending is not a concern, with proper precaution (see this reddit thread). Rudimentary game theory makes it abundantly clear that I wasn't attempting to double spend a losing bet.


Also double spending is like, super easy when you don't include a tx fee. I do it quite often when the network won't pick up a transaction I need confirmed fast.

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November 21, 2013, 07:34:05 AM
 #63

I'm also confused by this. Double spending is not a concern, with proper precaution (see this reddit thread). Rudimentary game theory makes it abundantly clear that I wasn't attempting to double spend a losing bet.


Also double spending is like, super easy when you don't include a tx fee. I do it quite often when the network won't pick up a transaction I need confirmed fast.

with proper precaution (see this reddit thread).

Are you associated with them, too?
Quote
#bitcoin-assets IRC log:
18:30:37 mircea_popescu: in other news, atruk made a blog.
18:30:38 mircea_popescu: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/

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November 21, 2013, 07:37:53 AM
 #64

If they didn't receive your money until after betting was closed, then you didn't purchase anything. Whatever is written in the rules can't take away your consumer rights. If they don't provide the service paid for or send a refund it's just theft. There not protecting anyone by keeping the money, just lining there pockets.

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November 21, 2013, 07:49:54 AM
 #65

Please direct all further refund requests to BitBet's authorized refund handling agent, Mr. David Thorne, esq.

Oh fuck, I lol'd.
Quote
BitBet IRC chat logs, 4/26/2013:
16:16:26 davout: my intelligence is limited, but i do have enough to see when taking a step back is needed
as is davout.

I registered on these forums in 2010, before 98% of the users around here.
So... if I follow your "reasoning" you can associate me with whatever scam took place since then, right?



I'm a little confused here, didn't he bet before the bet closed?  How does a transaction delay retroactively affect the time he placed his bet?
I'm also confused by this. Double spending is not a concern, with proper precaution (see this reddit thread). Rudimentary game theory makes it abundantly clear that I wasn't attempting to double spend a losing bet.

Apples, oranges.
If BB used your unconfirmed TX output in the bet payout it'd be retarded because one scammer could fuck with the validity of the complete payout (a in "for everyone", not only for his winnings).


So the correct course of action for you is :
 - Think,
 - Understand the why of the policy,
 - Get over it,
 - Pay more attention next time

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November 21, 2013, 08:44:31 AM
 #66

Failing to use tx fees is mooching. Using a (notoriously inept) "service" that fails to use tx fees is also mooching. Placing a bet when the resolution is imminent is dangerous. Doing so without a tx fee is suicidal. The rules governing this possibility are in BitBet's FAQ.

It is unfortunate that you deemed it alright to wager your BTC with a service whose guidelines you had not read, and before you had grasped the concepts of transactions and confirmations in the first place. That you made these choices, however, is not anybody else's concern.

You are a cold-hearted *erk. Guy lost 10k dollars! I'm on his side and he is fully right! Anyways, the problem is that Bitcoin-qt sometimes asks and sometimes doesn't ask for tx fee? So how can it be forced? I don't see that option.

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November 21, 2013, 08:48:29 AM
 #67

So how can it be forced? I don't see that option.

Read the fucking thread, the guy did not use Bitcoin-qt.

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November 21, 2013, 08:52:07 AM
 #68

What's the best way to organize a boycott / raise awareness?

You have my full support. I'm linking this on Reddit already and Tweeted about it. Such behaviour of betting sites is outrageous, they should loose their reputation and credibility!

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November 21, 2013, 08:55:37 AM
 #69

I'm a little confused here, didn't he bet before the bet closed?  How does a transaction delay retroactively affect the time he placed his bet?

No, he did not bet before the bet closed. He did some gymnastics which he imagines should count. They don't.

Roughly equivalent would be the guy going to the insurance company after his house burned down and saying "but you know, I rubbed my nose right before the fire started, CLEARLY!!!! that means I was going to pay you the premium, I should be covered!"

And then being told he's nuts, and just sticking to his story, repeating it again and again, as if that did anything. As if life is some sort of contest of who stuffs his ears tighter and yells "no u" for longer.

However, this isn't fiat world run by daddy government, where even the last subhuman piece of shit retard is guaranteed survival irrespective of any practical consideration, strictly on the basis that he may vote, and so he may call customer support and abuse the staff with impunity, and then call 911 because his hamburger wasn't well done enough or whatever.

You don't vote here, not by headcount anyway. This is Bitcoin - which is to say a republic not a democracy, which is to say Sparta - run by MP & co, where you either know what you're doing, learn what you're doing, or get lost.

Consequently, fuckwits that clearly don't know what they're doing get told so, and if instead of humbly accepting they were stupid, eating up their punishment - their punishment - and becoming better doobies for the future they "revolt" and "organize boycotts" in their own head and so on and so forth the result is strictly more punishment, mostly in the form of public humiliation and mockery.

Don't be this retard starting the thread here, or any other one of the long string of retards that ran into a well made service - a very well made service - with a headful of mistaken assumptions and got trampled into mush to date. Be the smart guy that learns what Bitcoin is, and what crypto means, and how blockchains work, and why they work that way, and what the WoT is, and why it's important, and what identity is, and why that's important, and what business is, and how it works, and how it works that way, and why it has to work that way and so on and so forth.

That's what I'm here doing, hundreds of hours a month, on MPOE's dime, telling you the whys and wherefores of all that so that you collectively, the "community" of retards congregated on retardstalk, the retard forum inhabited by retards, may become over time less retarded and who knows, maybe even productive, useful members of the actual Bitcoin community. One in ten would already be a grand victory at the rate we're going.

One in ten. Look through my two year long posting history for fucks sake, look at all the idiots that knew better than me on the strength of Dunning–Kruger's affliction. There's a crowd each month, and then they disappear and a new crowd takes over. Exactly the same stupidity, under new names, sputtered by new people, identical to the old. Follow their histories, write a book. Don't be the mayfly that lives out its illusion for a summer, don't be the blade of grass to be replaced by an identical blade of grass every time a goat comes by and snips it. Use that noggin, be a human being already.

You want to know what the biggest obstacle is? The braindamaged, boneheaded assumption of every fuckwit that heard about Bitcoin a month ago, or a week ago, or whenever the last time fiat went down against it was, who now imagines he knows what everything is. That's what's keeping you all poor and irrelevant, not the fact that others were here first, not the fact that you didn't hear about it back when people mined it on their desktop. None of that, it's not something external, it's something quite internal: your mistaken assumptions, chief among which that you matter, and chief among which that you know shit you haven't the first clue about. Get rid of these!

Be the guy that LISTENS when MP says to him "Is this your first time? Well so then start small". Don't be the guy that SAYS "sounds like a fine plan" but then DOESN'T DO IT! Because you think you know better. You don't know better.

Bitcoin is a contest of wits. The fate of the witless is this: anger, frustration, failure. Don't be that guy.

If you want bitbet to end; make a better competitor. otherwise deal with it

Yeah, like that fractool guy.

Quote
Sep 07 19:23:55 <mircea_popescu>   yes yes, i get you, "the people" know, which is to say the various "different identities" of whatever random trolls, and you'll make a better communist version of bitbet with 0% fees and direct access to the definitive truths.

I'm also confused by this. Double spending is not a concern, with proper precaution (see this reddit thread). Rudimentary game theory makes it abundantly clear that I wasn't attempting to double spend a losing bet.

You're not confused, you're just one of the scummy fucks that imagines interested blindness is a valuable argument to bring. Bonus points for having quoted reddit as some sort of source, lmao. Meanwhile back at Reality Ranch:

Quote
Nov 21 00:46:20 <mircea_popescu>   Before Sen. Jerry Moran (R-Kan.) addressed his colleagues about Bitcoin Tuesday, he did what any person in power who's a little confused about a complicated should do.
Nov 21 00:46:20 <mircea_popescu>   He went to the experts. Specifically, he went to Reddit's r/Bitcoin to ask them what the fuss was about.
Nov 21 00:46:21 <mircea_popescu>   ahahahaha
Nov 21 00:46:25 <mircea_popescu>   o.m.f.g.
Nov 21 00:46:31 <pankkake>   this is gold
Nov 21 00:46:37 <mircea_popescu>   this is like... almost better than bitcointalk
Nov 21 00:46:49 <mircea_popescu>   Those redditors, as redditors are wont to do, offered a mixed bag of responses. Some were flippant, some mistook him for Rep. Jim Moran (D-Va.),
Nov 21 00:46:53 <mircea_popescu>   totally. they're the experts.
Nov 21 00:47:24 <nubbins`>   couple of morans
Nov 21 00:47:41 <nubbins`>   http://moranswithsigns.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/moran-sign.jpg
Nov 21 00:49:00 *   iamnot_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
Nov 21 00:52:08 <assbot>   [HAVELOCK] [XBOND] 1435 @ 0.001045 = 1.4996 BTC [-]
Nov 21 00:54:04 <thestringpuller>   lol what would you expect from reddit?

Reddit is possibly the only place on the web with an even higher concentration of stupid than here. And since we're on this: #bitcoin-assets is not "BitBet irc", #bitcoin-assets is where people representing a majority of Bitcoins in circulation hang out. That place is where the law of the land comes from, that's where the future is drawn up. When MP doesn't want Bitcoin over 100, it's that irc chan where he first says something. When people want Bitcoin over 500 it's that chan where they come and ask if it's okay. When MtGox's slaughter is decided that's where it's first hinted at, and generally, everything that you find about a week after on Reddit was pre-announced a week or a month in advance on #bitcoin-assets.

You'd better LURK there for a while, and read the logs every day for six months to a year before you even say anything about anything. Show some respect to your betters --and make no mistake about it: the people there ARE your betters.

You should return the coins to all affected users and change your ridiculous policy.

To quote MP,

Quote
Since we’re doing “I would likes”, here’s mine : I would like to fuck your wife (due to you being an idiot). If you don’t have one (which’d be unfortunate but perhaps not unexplainable) please get married asap. I expect to receive this wife of yours at the following address : 1wilfulstupidityrules1337, and let me point out to you that by failing to inform me of the vital information of whether you’re married or not and also failing to provide tits in time you’re now to gtfo.

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November 21, 2013, 08:58:00 AM
 #70

My involvement is basically that there was a group of idiots derping in this thread and I joined the fray. Why?

Seems that we're having only one lone idiot here, and that's you. Do you see how many people are against you?

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November 21, 2013, 09:00:42 AM
 #71

Seems that we're having only one lone idiot here, and that's you. Do you see how many people are against you?

Who asked you anything? Speak when spoken to, fuckwit.

@davout I love it how they quote rettardit as the source of the method to avoid doublespends that Satoshi Dice pioneered.

You know, the MPEx Satoshi Dice.

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November 21, 2013, 10:00:39 AM
 #72

I believe 100%

Go make a religion or something

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November 21, 2013, 11:42:00 AM
 #73

Seems that we're having only one lone idiot here, and that's you. Do you see how many people are against you?

Who asked you anything? Speak when spoken to, fuckwit.

@davout I love it how they quote rettardit as the source of the method to avoid doublespends that Satoshi Dice pioneered.

You know, the MPEx Satoshi Dice.

MPOE-PR just likes irritating people. Common sense be damned. 

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November 21, 2013, 11:46:43 AM
 #74

I had a similar issue. Was 0.20 btc , but it sucks anyway.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=341881.0

Gl snackman.
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November 21, 2013, 02:20:04 PM
 #75

So this dude's bitcoin arrived too late to be included in the bet, but is being kept as if it had made it in the bet and lost?

For shame.  Shame shame shame.

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November 21, 2013, 02:20:22 PM
 #76

If they didn't receive your money until after betting was closed, then you didn't purchase anything. Whatever is written in the rules can't take away your consumer rights. If they don't provide the service paid for or send a refund it's just theft. There not protecting anyone by keeping the money, just lining there pockets.

The service is GAMBLING.  GAMBLING is risky.  When bets are time average weighted you must discourage late bets.  Why?

Masses of idiots like you would spam the blockchain at the last possible second when the bet outcome is known, for even a 1% winnings.  This screws early bettors and creates 95% of the work for bitbet admins for 5% of the customers.  The same 5% of childish people that bitbet is discouraging, because they are the worst kind of customers.   

This OPEN discouragement of late betting is clearly explained as such, in the faq. 

You're telling me you went and sent 10btc, at the time, ~$8,000, without even reading the faq? And you're blaming others for this oversight?

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November 21, 2013, 02:22:27 PM
 #77

The service is GAMBLING.  GAMBLING is risky.

Keeping my 10 BTC is STEALING. STEALING is wrong.

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November 21, 2013, 02:25:46 PM
 #78

Keeping my 10 BTC is STEALING. STEALING is wrong.

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November 21, 2013, 02:29:05 PM
 #79

The service is GAMBLING.  GAMBLING is risky.

Keeping my 10 BTC is STEALING. STEALING is wrong.

Sending $9,000 to a random gambling site without reading the rules is stupid.  Blaming others is childish.

Stealing is going in the night while you sleep and breaking into a safe. 

This is you gouging out your eyes and running into a casino and slapping down $9,000 on a roullete machine and then demanding your money back because you didn't know how it worked.


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November 21, 2013, 02:33:25 PM
 #80

If they didn't receive your money until after betting was closed, then you didn't purchase anything. Whatever is written in the rules can't take away your consumer rights. If they don't provide the service paid for or send a refund it's just theft. There not protecting anyone by keeping the money, just lining there pockets.

The service is GAMBLING.  GAMBLING is risky.  When bets are time average weighted you must discourage late bets.  Why?

Masses of idiots like you would spam the blockchain at the last possible second when the bet outcome is known, for even a 1% winnings.  This screws early bettors and creates 95% of the work for bitbet admins for 5% of the customers.  The same 5% of childish people that bitbet is discouraging, because they are the worst kind of customers.   

This OPEN discouragement of late betting is clearly explained as such, in the faq. 

You're telling me you went and sent 10btc, at the time, ~$8,000, without even reading the faq? And you're blaming others for this oversight?

This could be solved easily I think . Their rules could include this for ex: all bets entered 30 minutes before bet outcome is known will be cancelled and refunded with a 1%.
Is it? I'm not an expert on betting, correct me if I'm wrong.
But seems like they prefer to steal the money.

and FAQ says:

http://bitbet.us/faq/#152
What if I bet after the bet has been satisfied, but before it is actually closed?
Your bet will be refunded, minus BitBet's 1% fee.

Our bets were done BEFORE the bet was closed.
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November 21, 2013, 02:43:59 PM
 #81

The service is GAMBLING.  GAMBLING is risky.

Keeping my 10 BTC is STEALING. STEALING is wrong.

Sending $9,000 to a random gambling site without reading the rules is stupid.  Blaming others is childish.

Stealing is going in the night while you sleep and breaking into a safe. 

This is you gouging out your eyes and running into a casino and slapping down $9,000 on a roullete machine and then demanding your money back because you didn't know how it worked.



In your roullete comparison, he would be the guy who walked into the casino and handed the dealer $9000 dollars without reading the fine print. Then the dealer turns around and says. "Sorry, you don't get a turn the last spin was 5 mins ago. Tuff luck." If you think that's how normal business works. Your either a crook or delusional.

There are laws to protect customers from these types of scams. Businesses are not allowed to just take your money and not provide the item or service. They can write whatever they like in the rules, it doesn't change that.

There are way to many companies like this in Bitcoin. We need to stop supporting these crooked business practices if we want bitcoin to succeed.

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November 21, 2013, 03:00:12 PM
 #82

There are way to many companies like this in Bitcoin. We need to stop supporting these crooked business practices if we want bitcoin to succeed.

You are roughly in the position of a Colorado bug on a potato plant discussing what "we" should be doing if "we" wish agriculture to succeed.

Shut the fuck up and get lost. You're not even part of Bitcoin in the first place. And the reason Bitcoin doth succeed has a way lot more to do with MP than you can begin to comprehend.

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November 21, 2013, 03:02:26 PM
 #83

This could be solved easily I think . Their rules could include this for ex: all bets entered 30 minutes before bet outcome is known will be cancelled and refunded with a 1%.

Timing does not work in Bitcoin the way you intuitively imagine it would.

In fact the reason the blockchain even exists in the first place is that timing and synchronicity issues have no easy solution.

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November 21, 2013, 03:25:26 PM
 #84

This could be solved easily I think . Their rules could include this for ex: all bets entered 30 minutes before bet outcome is known will be cancelled and refunded with a 1%.

Timing does not work in Bitcoin the way you intuitively imagine it would.

In fact the reason the blockchain even exists in the first place is that timing and synchronicity issues have no easy solution.

I'm not referring to bitcoin or blockchain timing. I talk about bet closed time in bitbet.us. If they just reject those last 30 minute (even confirmed) bets, I think this will keep away cheater's bets and scammers.
I'm sure there's solutions. But seems like they like the actual betting system.
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November 21, 2013, 03:29:25 PM
 #85

I'm not referring to bitcoin or blockchain timing. I talk about bet closed time in bitbet.us. If they just reject those last 30 minute (even confirmed) bets, I think this will keep away cheater's bets and scammers.

So if BitBet clock shows 10:45, what time is it on arbitrary bet #6705's clock?

I'm sure there's solutions. But seems like they like the actual betting system.

The problem with the world is that the clueless are always sure of various things.

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November 21, 2013, 03:33:20 PM
 #86

This could be solved easily I think . Their rules could include this for ex: all bets entered 30 minutes before bet outcome is known will be cancelled and refunded with a 1%.

Timing does not work in Bitcoin the way you intuitively imagine it would.

In fact the reason the blockchain even exists in the first place is that timing and synchronicity issues have no easy solution.

You are saying that if the user sent the money without fees there is no way to verify that he sent it at a particular time? If that is so you should have started with that.

I understand your theory in double spending, but if the user sent his BTC from another betting service which he doesn't own, he doesn't control the private keys of that wallet and there is no way he can double spend those coins, or am I missing something here?

Your arguments in this post are usually so emotional that is hard to figure out what you are trying to say. I would suggest you keep your answers in a polite and logical manner. If you actually have a point it will be heard this way. But so far I'm still thinking that the user has a stronger point and its going to take some good reasons for changing my mind.

Would it make it more risky to return all the transactions that had no fee instead of keeping them?

If the user actually double spend his bet after the resolution of the bet is known, wouldn't that bet be qualified as late?

Given your attitude I feel like I'm missing something and it would be much easier if you enlighten us with that.

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November 21, 2013, 03:39:58 PM
 #87

If they didn't receive your money until after betting was closed, then you didn't purchase anything. Whatever is written in the rules can't take away your consumer rights. If they don't provide the service paid for or send a refund it's just theft. There not protecting anyone by keeping the money, just lining there pockets.

The service is GAMBLING.  GAMBLING is risky.  When bets are time average weighted you must discourage late bets.  Why?

Masses of idiots like you would spam the blockchain at the last possible second when the bet outcome is known, for even a 1% winnings.  This screws early bettors and creates 95% of the work for bitbet admins for 5% of the customers.  The same 5% of childish people that bitbet is discouraging, because they are the worst kind of customers.   

This OPEN discouragement of late betting is clearly explained as such, in the faq. 

You're telling me you went and sent 10btc, at the time, ~$8,000, without even reading the faq? And you're blaming others for this oversight?

Gambling is risky but the risk is supposed to be in losing the bets and not getting screwed by the site operator. Having a rule that payments must be confirmed before a bet is resolved to count is perfectly reasonable. Having a rule that refunds of such payments are subject to a small convenience fee (since it may require manual intervention to refund) is also perfectly reasonable. Having a rule that says bets don't count up to X minutes before a bet is resolved is also reasonable.

A price of almost $750 is not $750 though, so unless the bet was placed after the price actually crossed $750 then I don't think it's an exploit - the outcome was still in doubt even if the doubt was very small. Regardless, keeping 100% of the money is stealing, and a wave of people from BitBet IRC chat saying otherwise doesn't change that.

A FAQ is for when people have questions, it's not a must-read for casual users who want to make sure they don't get screwed by awful policies. Even actual must-reads like terms and conditions you must agree to before using a service do not give you the right to steal.

OP, I hope you contact a lawyer if the site continues to refuse to refund you. I bet a judge would see this as stealing, but running this by a lawyer would be the best way to be sure. You're out a significant chunk of change so I believe it could easily be worth it, and you'd be doing the bitcoin community a service.
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November 21, 2013, 03:43:40 PM
 #88


So if BitBet clock shows 10:45, what time is it on arbitrary bet #6705's clock?


If bitbet says: bet closed at 10:45 (bitbet time) , then all bets confirmed and received from 10:15 (bitbet time) to ahead would be cancelled and refunded. What's the problem with that?
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November 21, 2013, 03:50:00 PM
 #89

If they didn't receive your money until after betting was closed, then you didn't purchase anything. Whatever is written in the rules can't take away your consumer rights. If they don't provide the service paid for or send a refund it's just theft. There not protecting anyone by keeping the money, just lining there pockets.

The service is GAMBLING.  GAMBLING is risky.  When bets are time average weighted you must discourage late bets.  Why?

Masses of idiots like you would spam the blockchain at the last possible second when the bet outcome is known, for even a 1% winnings.  This screws early bettors and creates 95% of the work for bitbet admins for 5% of the customers.  The same 5% of childish people that bitbet is discouraging, because they are the worst kind of customers.   

This OPEN discouragement of late betting is clearly explained as such, in the faq. 

You're telling me you went and sent 10btc, at the time, ~$8,000, without even reading the faq? And you're blaming others for this oversight?

Gambling is risky but the risk is supposed to be in losing the bets and not getting screwed by the site operator. Having a rule that payments must be confirmed before a bet is resolved to count is perfectly reasonable. Having a rule that refunds of such payments are subject to a small convenience fee (since it may require manual intervention to refund) is also perfectly reasonable. Having a rule that says bets don't count up to X minutes before a bet is resolved is also reasonable.

A price of almost $750 is not $750 though, so unless the bet was placed after the price actually crossed $750 then I don't think it's an exploit - the outcome was still in doubt even if the doubt was very small. Regardless, keeping 100% of the money is stealing, and a wave of people from BitBet IRC chat saying otherwise doesn't change that.

A FAQ is for when people have questions, it's not a must-read for casual users who want to make sure they don't get screwed by awful policies. Even actual must-reads like terms and conditions you must agree to before using a service do not give you the right to steal.

OP, I hope you contact a lawyer if the site continues to refuse to refund you. I bet a judge would see this as stealing, but running this by a lawyer would be the best way to be sure. You're out a significant chunk of change so I believe it could easily be worth it, and you'd be doing the bitcoin community a service.


+1.

I encourage bitbet to resolve this issue. If not, maybe they will end paying x10 times what they have took.
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November 21, 2013, 04:21:16 PM
 #90

Please upvote this on reddit to alert the wider community:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1r3spb/how_is_this_not_considered_theft_by_bitbet_and_is/

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Bugpowder
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November 21, 2013, 04:43:21 PM
 #91

Don't expect BitBet to change a policy that supplies a sizable proportion of the S.BBET dividends.  Maybe you could purchase the rest of the S.BBET shares on the market in order to get a partial refund?
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November 21, 2013, 04:48:19 PM
 #92

did user as betsofbitco.in for help? they're the ones with the messed up transaction; is that their policy?

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November 21, 2013, 05:03:25 PM
 #93

Don't expect BitBet to change a policy that supplies a sizable proportion of the S.BBET dividends.

How many of the #bitcoin-assets chatters are here because they own shares in BitBet and my complaint threatens their dividends?

Bugpowder is yet another #bitcoin-assets guy.
----------------------------------------

What are they going to do, launch a fedora attack?
Hopefully, they will spread the word that BitBet is a scam site run by thieves.
----------------------------------------

There are way to many companies like this in Bitcoin. We need to stop supporting these crooked business practices if we want bitcoin to succeed.

You are roughly in the position of a Colorado bug on a potato plant discussing what "we" should be doing if "we" wish agriculture to succeed.

Shut the fuck up and get lost. You're not even part of Bitcoin in the first place. And the reason Bitcoin doth succeed has a way lot more to do with MP than you can begin to comprehend.
Bitcoin is a distributed system - one which Beans is a part of simply by posting in this forum. Its success does not depend on any one person - that's the point!
----------------------------------------

Keeping my 10 BTC is STEALING. STEALING is wrong.

"Would you download a car?"
My opinions on intellectual property law are an unrelated issue, which I'd be happy to discuss in a different thread.
----------------------------------------

Gambling is risky but the risk is supposed to be in losing the bets and not getting screwed by the site operator. Having a rule that payments must be confirmed before a bet is resolved to count is perfectly reasonable. Having a rule that refunds of such payments are subject to a small convenience fee (since it may require manual intervention to refund) is also perfectly reasonable. Having a rule that says bets don't count up to X minutes before a bet is resolved is also reasonable.

A price of almost $750 is not $750 though, so unless the bet was placed after the price actually crossed $750 then I don't think it's an exploit - the outcome was still in doubt even if the doubt was very small. Regardless, keeping 100% of the money is stealing, and a wave of people from BitBet IRC chat saying otherwise doesn't change that.

A FAQ is for when people have questions, it's not a must-read for casual users who want to make sure they don't get screwed by awful policies. Even actual must-reads like terms and conditions you must agree to before using a service do not give you the right to steal.

OP, I hope you contact a lawyer if the site continues to refuse to refund you. I bet a judge would see this as stealing, but running this by a lawyer would be the best way to be sure. You're out a significant chunk of change so I believe it could easily be worth it, and you'd be doing the bitcoin community a service.


+1.

I encourage bitbet to resolve this issue. If not, maybe they will end paying x10 times what they have took.

I contacted a lawyer that accepts bitcoin Smiley. I'll keep you updated.

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November 21, 2013, 05:09:19 PM
 #94

did user as betsofbitco.in for help? they're the ones with the messed up transaction; is that their policy?

Yes, I've been emailing coinjedi and I'm currently waiting on his response to my latest:

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November 21, 2013, 05:10:09 PM
 #95

Hopefully, they will spread the word that BitBet is a scam site run by thieves.
Which is false, but I understand guess blackmail is OK with you.
What you should know is that you're far from the first wanting to do that. What do you think would happen if any company catered towards any of those requests?

You do realize no one was able to provide a valid argument which makes bitbet's policy a legit reason for keeping those btc, right? So far in the whole post every time it was questioned all the answers where insults. I hope you can clarify from a technical point of view why this is valid.

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November 21, 2013, 05:11:05 PM
 #96



I'll take the case!



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November 21, 2013, 05:23:18 PM
 #97

You do realize that not agreeing with someone's policy is not enough to build a court case?
The policy is there, if you don't agree don't use the site. But if you call it "theft", you're a scammer.
I don't think you understand how policies work in court.  A court would never uphold a policy that states "I have the right to steal your money," which is effectivly what bitbet's policy says.

So the correct course of action for you is :
 - Think,
 - Understand the why of the policy,
 - Get over it,
 - Pay more attention next time

Well, I USED to have respect for you, davout.  Are you involved in this site in any way?
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November 21, 2013, 05:31:59 PM
 #98

I don't think you understand how policies work in court.
And you do, I wager? You must have an Internet Lawyer Diploma! No shortage of them, unlike bitcoins.

A court would never uphold a policy that states "I have the right to steal your money," which is effectivly what bitbet's policy says.
But it's not what it says. And given that you can perfectly not agree with it by not playing, you're simply not understanding the issue.

OP wanted to bet at the very last minute and steal from legitimate bettors.
OP did not understand how the bitcoin network worked and didn't even use a proper wallet.
He's the thief; he's just upset because he's a bad one, and is now moving into blackmail. Beware which side you take.

Can you explain how he is a thief? Most of us don't understand that part

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deadweasel
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November 21, 2013, 05:32:31 PM
 #99

You do realize that not agreeing with someone's policy is not enough to build a court case?
The policy is there, if you don't agree don't use the site. But if you call it "theft", you're a scammer.
I don't think you understand how policies work in court.  A court would never uphold a policy that states "I have the right to steal your money," which is effectivly what bitbet's policy says.

So the correct course of action for you is :
 - Think,
 - Understand the why of the policy,
 - Get over it,
 - Pay more attention next time

Well, I USED to have respect for you, davout.  Are you involved in this site in any way?

Look, it's a hardline stance, but they can discourage late betting this way because it's clearly stated on the website and it's a private business that's not forcing you to use it.  You have the options to use it or not.  If you use it poorly, fuck you.

Snackman got his service provided, because he got the thrill of sending BTC in late, and lost.  Now he has the thrill of putting responsibility elsewhere.  Service fucking rendered.

Had he read the FAQ, which anyone with a brain in their head would do before sending $9.000, he would know that sending bets in late is still GAMBLING with your money.  So, the service was in fact rendered. 

Late betting scammers think you can scrape off the winnings of legit users?   Nope.

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November 21, 2013, 05:39:18 PM
 #100

You do realize that not agreeing with someone's policy is not enough to build a court case?
The policy is there, if you don't agree don't use the site. But if you call it "theft", you're a scammer.
I don't think you understand how policies work in court.  A court would never uphold a policy that states "I have the right to steal your money," which is effectivly what bitbet's policy says.

So the correct course of action for you is :
 - Think,
 - Understand the why of the policy,
 - Get over it,
 - Pay more attention next time

Well, I USED to have respect for you, davout.  Are you involved in this site in any way?

Look, it's a hardline stance, but they can discourage late betting this way because it's clearly stated on the website and it's a private business that's not forcing you to use it.  You have the options to use it or not.  If you use it poorly, fuck you.

Snackman got his service provided, because he got the thrill of sending BTC in late, and lost.  Now he has the thrill of putting responsibility elsewhere.  Service fucking rendered.

Had he read the FAQ, which anyone with a brain in their head would do before sending $9.000, he would know that sending bets in late is still GAMBLING with your money.  So, the service was in fact rendered. 

Late betting scammers think you can scrape off the winnings of legit users?   Nope.

A bet can either be accepted or rejected, how is it a legit action to accept and reject it at the same time?

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November 21, 2013, 05:39:45 PM
 #101

There are way to many companies like this in Bitcoin. We need to stop supporting these crooked business practices if we want bitcoin to succeed.

You are roughly in the position of a Colorado bug on a potato plant discussing what "we" should be doing if "we" wish agriculture to succeed.

Shut the fuck up and get lost. You're not even part of Bitcoin in the first place. And the reason Bitcoin doth succeed has a way lot more to do with MP than you can begin to comprehend.

So basically, you don't even have a point to your argument. Another comparison that makes zero sense. According to you comparison, customer support is irreverent to business success.

You don't even have a clue who I am. You just presume as usual that you know everything. There's always a few people like you on the forum, self entitled know it all but lacking common sense. You may think your something special but your not. Why don't you stick to posting when you have something that makes sense. Every time I've seen you post anything, it's always swearing and spreading your crack pot ideas. Grow up, get out of your parents house and get a life.

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November 21, 2013, 06:19:45 PM
 #102


A bet can either be accepted or rejected, how is it a legit action to accept and reject it at the same time?

Because betting late is scamming legit users.  When a user DECIDE to bet late they RISK their BTC by betting late and essentially scamming the system when a bet resolution is clear.  (screwing those who bet early with no knowledge of the bet outcome). 

This policy was instituted because legit users were getting squeezed out of their winnings because of people like snackman.  Bitbet.us took a hardline stance and publicly stated so.  Should they spam each bettor with the FAQ before placing a bet?  I dunno, I am not involved in any way (besides a user).

You can bet all day on bitbet.us safely.    If you bet close to the closing date then you are taking EXTRA risk which is an EXTRA service rendered in terms of gambling. 

Snackman's inability to:


1.  Use bitcoin-qt or legit web-wallet to even receive a refund, IF BITBET wanted to.   There is no way to refund as he did not do this.  FAIL 1.

2.  Read the FAQ    FAIL 2.

3.  Send a small amount first  FAIL 3.

4.  Admit his mistake of not reading the FAQ, accept his part in it, and request a refund based on his newbie dumb-ass status.  Would this have worked to get a refund?  We will never know now, will we?   FAIL 4.

Running around fucking up based on assumptions of how a gambling site should behave is no way to keep your BTC. 

It is, indeed, time to grow up.  Is it time for Bitbet.us to change that policy?  I don't know, but none of you have any fucking say in it.  Lots of big players use BitBet correctly and safely, and the loss of users like snackman is actually a boon to the business.  So, keep it up!


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November 21, 2013, 06:34:50 PM
 #103

I contacted a lawyer that accepts bitcoin Smiley. I'll keep you updated.

Best of luck to you, getting a lawyer familiar with bitcoin is huge. Let me know if I can help. I don't know if this possibly violates any fraud/theft criminal statutes or if it would be at all practical to pursue them but I wouldn't mind seeing these thieves punished. Most important is that you (and others affected by the same policy) get their money back and that nobody uses this site anymore.
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November 21, 2013, 06:38:36 PM
 #104


A bet can either be accepted or rejected, how is it a legit action to accept and reject it at the same time?

Because betting late is scamming legit users.  When a user DECIDE to bet late they RISK their BTC by betting late and essentially scamming the system when a bet resolution is clear.  (screwing those who bet early with no knowledge of the bet outcome). 

This policy was instituted because legit users were getting squeezed out of their winnings because of people like snackman.  Bitbet.us took a hardline stance and publicly stated so.  Should they spam each bettor with the FAQ before placing a bet?  I dunno, I am not involved in any way (besides a user).

You can bet all day on bitbet.us safely.    If you bet close to the closing date then you are taking EXTRA risk which is an EXTRA service rendered in terms of gambling. 

Snackman's inability to:


1.  Use bitcoin-qt or legit web-wallet to even receive a refund, IF BITBET wanted to.   There is no way to refund as he did not do this.  FAIL 1.

2.  Read the FAQ    FAIL 2.

3.  Send a small amount first  FAIL 3.

4.  Admit his mistake of not reading the FAQ, accept his part in it, and request a refund based on his newbie dumb-ass status.  Would this have worked to get a refund?  We will never know now, will we?   FAIL 4.

Running around fucking up based on assumptions of how a gambling site should behave is no way to keep your BTC. 

It is, indeed, time to grow up.  Is it time for Bitbet.us to change that policy?  I don't know, but none of you have any fucking say in it.  Lots of big players use BitBet correctly and safely, and the loss of users like snackman is actually a boon to the business.  So, keep it up!




I understand your point, but rejecting the bet because of being late protects the user in the same way than this policy, doesn't it?

Also, if you find a bet you find interesting, but you have your btc on a site, is it such a crime to try to get in if you think the bet is still valid? Wouldn't you assume if you are too late that it will be refunded to you if the place is legit? One can probably think that he will be really late if he transfers the btc to his wallet and then to the site.

And he has no way on proving that he owns such address, but the support from the other site could easily state that he actually owns or not said address, probably they will be more eager to help given that they are the ones that sent the transaction without fees. Wouldn't that be sufficient to entitle him for a refund?


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November 21, 2013, 06:40:25 PM
 #105

Don't expect BitBet to change a policy that supplies a sizable proportion of the S.BBET dividends.

How many of the #bitcoin-assets chatters are here because they own shares in BitBet and my complaint threatens their dividends?

Bugpowder is yet another #bitcoin-assets guy.
----------------------------------------


I'm a bitcoin-assets guy, because that's where people that know what's going on in the bitcoin space hang out. That said, I don't currently own shares in any MPEX listed security, nor any other bitcoin denominated security. I don't like the counterparty risk associated with virtual shares in virtual companies in a virtual world now that bitcoins have tremendous fiat value. Everyone is a hustler in the bitcoin space (much like the general financial services space), and its hard to avoid getting burned at least once, particularly since getting legal relief is usually impossible.  10BTC is a small price to pay to learn this lesson, relative to what others have paid in the past (myself included).

Good luck collecting on your non-currency based gambling transaction with a virtual company run out of deep eastern Europe.

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November 21, 2013, 06:47:17 PM
 #106


A bet can either be accepted or rejected, how is it a legit action to accept and reject it at the same time?

Because betting late is scamming legit users.  When a user DECIDE to bet late they RISK their BTC by betting late and essentially scamming the system when a bet resolution is clear.  (screwing those who bet early with no knowledge of the bet outcome). 

This policy was instituted because legit users were getting squeezed out of their winnings because of people like snackman.  Bitbet.us took a hardline stance and publicly stated so.  Should they spam each bettor with the FAQ before placing a bet?  I dunno, I am not involved in any way (besides a user).

You can bet all day on bitbet.us safely.    If you bet close to the closing date then you are taking EXTRA risk which is an EXTRA service rendered in terms of gambling. 

Snackman's inability to:


1.  Use bitcoin-qt or legit web-wallet to even receive a refund, IF BITBET wanted to.   There is no way to refund as he did not do this.  FAIL 1.

2.  Read the FAQ    FAIL 2.

3.  Send a small amount first  FAIL 3.

4.  Admit his mistake of not reading the FAQ, accept his part in it, and request a refund based on his newbie dumb-ass status.  Would this have worked to get a refund?  We will never know now, will we?   FAIL 4.

Running around fucking up based on assumptions of how a gambling site should behave is no way to keep your BTC. 

It is, indeed, time to grow up.  Is it time for Bitbet.us to change that policy?  I don't know, but none of you have any fucking say in it.  Lots of big players use BitBet correctly and safely, and the loss of users like snackman is actually a boon to the business.  So, keep it up!




I understand your point, but rejecting the bet because of being late protects the user in the same way than this policy, doesn't it?

Also, if you find a bet you find interesting, but you have your btc on a site, is it such a crime to try to get in if you think the bet is still valid? Wouldn't you assume if you are too late that it will be refunded to you if the place is legit? One can probably think that he will be really late if he transfers the btc to his wallet and then to the site.

And he has no way on proving that he owns such address, but the support from the other site could easily state that he actually owns or not said address, probably they will be more eager to help given that they are the ones that sent the transaction without fees. Wouldn't that be sufficient to entitle him for a refund?



Yes, I would be fine with either policy.   This is because I would never send anything to any site (much less $9,000) without reading the fine print.  I don't sweat policies because I read them.

If I find a bet interesting, being a reasonable person, I would send from my blockchain.info hot wallet which contains very little BTC.  Again, because I read the fine print and already know that shitty wallets can't get refunds -- because I ask questions when there is a gray area. 

I would also look at the closing date and make sure I'm in at least a few days securely before bet closing, or I would not bet.  So, no, I wouldn't assume anything, I have made such mistakes in the past and learned from them.

BetsOfBitcoin could not verify identity at all, afaik.  How could they?


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November 21, 2013, 07:02:44 PM
 #107


A bet can either be accepted or rejected, how is it a legit action to accept and reject it at the same time?

Because betting late is scamming legit users.  When a user DECIDE to bet late they RISK their BTC by betting late and essentially scamming the system when a bet resolution is clear.  (screwing those who bet early with no knowledge of the bet outcome). 

This policy was instituted because legit users were getting squeezed out of their winnings because of people like snackman.  Bitbet.us took a hardline stance and publicly stated so.  Should they spam each bettor with the FAQ before placing a bet?  I dunno, I am not involved in any way (besides a user).

You can bet all day on bitbet.us safely.    If you bet close to the closing date then you are taking EXTRA risk which is an EXTRA service rendered in terms of gambling. 

Snackman's inability to:


1.  Use bitcoin-qt or legit web-wallet to even receive a refund, IF BITBET wanted to.   There is no way to refund as he did not do this.  FAIL 1.

2.  Read the FAQ    FAIL 2.

3.  Send a small amount first  FAIL 3.

4.  Admit his mistake of not reading the FAQ, accept his part in it, and request a refund based on his newbie dumb-ass status.  Would this have worked to get a refund?  We will never know now, will we?   FAIL 4.

Running around fucking up based on assumptions of how a gambling site should behave is no way to keep your BTC. 

It is, indeed, time to grow up.  Is it time for Bitbet.us to change that policy?  I don't know, but none of you have any fucking say in it.  Lots of big players use BitBet correctly and safely, and the loss of users like snackman is actually a boon to the business.  So, keep it up!




I understand your point, but rejecting the bet because of being late protects the user in the same way than this policy, doesn't it?

Also, if you find a bet you find interesting, but you have your btc on a site, is it such a crime to try to get in if you think the bet is still valid? Wouldn't you assume if you are too late that it will be refunded to you if the place is legit? One can probably think that he will be really late if he transfers the btc to his wallet and then to the site.

And he has no way on proving that he owns such address, but the support from the other site could easily state that he actually owns or not said address, probably they will be more eager to help given that they are the ones that sent the transaction without fees. Wouldn't that be sufficient to entitle him for a refund?



Yes, I would be fine with either policy.   This is because I would never send anything to any site (much less $9,000) without reading the fine print.  I don't sweat policies because I read them.

If I find a bet interesting, being a reasonable person, I would send from my blockchain.info hot wallet which contains very little BTC.  Again, because I read the fine print and already know that shitty wallets can't get refunds -- because I ask questions when there is a gray area. 

I would also look at the closing date and make sure I'm in at least a few days securely before bet closing, or I would not bet.  So, no, I wouldn't assume anything, I have made such mistakes in the past and learned from them.

BetsOfBitcoin could not verify identity at all, afaik.  How could they?



Thats the thing, some people take precautions, some not; some use protection, some end up with unexpected kids Tongue

Or more seriously, some people are adverse to risks, some love them...

Well when I said that of BoB I'm assuming that someone that runs the site has access to all the private keys of all the address and the database that states which address belongs to which user; and that such person is willing to do all the verification and sign a message with the involved address stating it belongs to person x and that it should be refunded to address z. Other than lack of willingness I don't see why it couldn't be done.

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snackman
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November 21, 2013, 07:20:10 PM
 #108

5. Not reading or not caring about BitBet's FAQ and the open, fully explained, warnings about the rare potential for this very situation on this very forum;
According to reddit, this situation is not rare at all:
Quote
This policy is ridiculous and can't possibly be legal.
If I try to put down a thousand dollars on a roulette table after the guy waves his hand, the bet is rejected and I get my thousand bucks back. The dealer doesn't stuff it in his pocket and call me a fag.
Either you accept a bet, or you don't. If you accept it and they lose, you get to keep the money. If you accept it and they win, they get more money. If you don't accept it, YOU DON'T GET TO KEEP THE MONEY.
Scumbag shit at its finest. I don't care how many times you've been defrauded by somebody double-spending, you don't get to make up for it by fucking stealing from people.
EDIT: Looked into this some more, and holy shit! These people are RAKING IN stolen money from bad bets. As per the FAQ, they consider them "gracious donations" to their investors. In March they stole 23 BTC, and April they stole almost 26.
Fuck these people with a red hot iron. Someone else in here posted a whois of the website, the owner needs to be put in cuffs for grand larceny.
Should this thread be moved to the Scam Accusations board?
-------------------------

Well when I said that of BoB I'm assuming that someone that runs the site has access to all the private keys of all the address and the database that states which address belongs to which user; and that such person is willing to do all the verification and sign a message with the involved address stating it belongs to person x and that it should be refunded to address z. Other than lack of willingness I don't see why it couldn't be done.
Alternatively, BitBet could simply refund the money to the withdrawal address that I submitted at time of bet.

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deadweasel
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November 21, 2013, 07:26:22 PM
 #109


A bet can either be accepted or rejected, how is it a legit action to accept and reject it at the same time?

Because betting late is scamming legit users.  When a user DECIDE to bet late they RISK their BTC by betting late and essentially scamming the system when a bet resolution is clear.  (screwing those who bet early with no knowledge of the bet outcome). 

This policy was instituted because legit users were getting squeezed out of their winnings because of people like snackman.  Bitbet.us took a hardline stance and publicly stated so.  Should they spam each bettor with the FAQ before placing a bet?  I dunno, I am not involved in any way (besides a user).

You can bet all day on bitbet.us safely.    If you bet close to the closing date then you are taking EXTRA risk which is an EXTRA service rendered in terms of gambling. 

Snackman's inability to:


1.  Use bitcoin-qt or legit web-wallet to even receive a refund, IF BITBET wanted to.   There is no way to refund as he did not do this.  FAIL 1.

2.  Read the FAQ    FAIL 2.

3.  Send a small amount first  FAIL 3.

4.  Admit his mistake of not reading the FAQ, accept his part in it, and request a refund based on his newbie dumb-ass status.  Would this have worked to get a refund?  We will never know now, will we?   FAIL 4.

Running around fucking up based on assumptions of how a gambling site should behave is no way to keep your BTC. 

It is, indeed, time to grow up.  Is it time for Bitbet.us to change that policy?  I don't know, but none of you have any fucking say in it.  Lots of big players use BitBet correctly and safely, and the loss of users like snackman is actually a boon to the business.  So, keep it up!




I understand your point, but rejecting the bet because of being late protects the user in the same way than this policy, doesn't it?

Also, if you find a bet you find interesting, but you have your btc on a site, is it such a crime to try to get in if you think the bet is still valid? Wouldn't you assume if you are too late that it will be refunded to you if the place is legit? One can probably think that he will be really late if he transfers the btc to his wallet and then to the site.

And he has no way on proving that he owns such address, but the support from the other site could easily state that he actually owns or not said address, probably they will be more eager to help given that they are the ones that sent the transaction without fees. Wouldn't that be sufficient to entitle him for a refund?



Yes, I would be fine with either policy.   This is because I would never send anything to any site (much less $9,000) without reading the fine print.  I don't sweat policies because I read them.

If I find a bet interesting, being a reasonable person, I would send from my blockchain.info hot wallet which contains very little BTC.  Again, because I read the fine print and already know that shitty wallets can't get refunds -- because I ask questions when there is a gray area. 

I would also look at the closing date and make sure I'm in at least a few days securely before bet closing, or I would not bet.  So, no, I wouldn't assume anything, I have made such mistakes in the past and learned from them.

BetsOfBitcoin could not verify identity at all, afaik.  How could they?



Thats the thing, some people take precautions, some not; some use protection, some end up with unexpected kids Tongue

Or more seriously, some people are adverse to risks, some love them...

Well when I said that of BoB I'm assuming that someone that runs the site has access to all the private keys of all the address and the database that states which address belongs to which user; and that such person is willing to do all the verification and sign a message with the involved address stating it belongs to person x and that it should be refunded to address z. Other than lack of willingness I don't see why it couldn't be done.
My guess because bets are anonymous.  I haven't checked in a year or so but last time I was there you send to a BTC address and if you won, it was sent back.  Never did I need to put in a piece of identifiable information.

I just checked, now you need a login.  They could *probably* do this if they were so inclined.  I'm just trying to figure out why they should when snackman was trying to scam all the legit bettors out of their winnings?

snackman
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November 21, 2013, 08:47:54 PM
 #110

This is apparently not the first, or even the second time, that BitBet has scammed its users.

Hopefully it's the last.

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SgtSpike
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November 21, 2013, 08:58:52 PM
 #111

This is apparently not the first, or even the second time, that BitBet has scammed its users.

Hopefully it's the last.
Apparently it won't be, since some people here seem to think stealing from its users is a commendable practice.
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November 21, 2013, 09:14:06 PM
 #112


A bet can either be accepted or rejected, how is it a legit action to accept and reject it at the same time?

Because betting late is scamming legit users.  When a user DECIDE to bet late they RISK their BTC by betting late and essentially scamming the system when a bet resolution is clear.  (screwing those who bet early with no knowledge of the bet outcome). 

This policy was instituted because legit users were getting squeezed out of their winnings because of people like snackman.  Bitbet.us took a hardline stance and publicly stated so.  Should they spam each bettor with the FAQ before placing a bet?  I dunno, I am not involved in any way (besides a user).

You can bet all day on bitbet.us safely.    If you bet close to the closing date then you are taking EXTRA risk which is an EXTRA service rendered in terms of gambling. 

Snackman's inability to:


1.  Use bitcoin-qt or legit web-wallet to even receive a refund, IF BITBET wanted to.   There is no way to refund as he did not do this.  FAIL 1.

2.  Read the FAQ    FAIL 2.

3.  Send a small amount first  FAIL 3.

4.  Admit his mistake of not reading the FAQ, accept his part in it, and request a refund based on his newbie dumb-ass status.  Would this have worked to get a refund?  We will never know now, will we?   FAIL 4.

Running around fucking up based on assumptions of how a gambling site should behave is no way to keep your BTC. 

It is, indeed, time to grow up.  Is it time for Bitbet.us to change that policy?  I don't know, but none of you have any fucking say in it.  Lots of big players use BitBet correctly and safely, and the loss of users like snackman is actually a boon to the business.  So, keep it up!




I understand your point, but rejecting the bet because of being late protects the user in the same way than this policy, doesn't it?

Also, if you find a bet you find interesting, but you have your btc on a site, is it such a crime to try to get in if you think the bet is still valid? Wouldn't you assume if you are too late that it will be refunded to you if the place is legit? One can probably think that he will be really late if he transfers the btc to his wallet and then to the site.

And he has no way on proving that he owns such address, but the support from the other site could easily state that he actually owns or not said address, probably they will be more eager to help given that they are the ones that sent the transaction without fees. Wouldn't that be sufficient to entitle him for a refund?



Yes, I would be fine with either policy.   This is because I would never send anything to any site (much less $9,000) without reading the fine print.  I don't sweat policies because I read them.

If I find a bet interesting, being a reasonable person, I would send from my blockchain.info hot wallet which contains very little BTC.  Again, because I read the fine print and already know that shitty wallets can't get refunds -- because I ask questions when there is a gray area. 

I would also look at the closing date and make sure I'm in at least a few days securely before bet closing, or I would not bet.  So, no, I wouldn't assume anything, I have made such mistakes in the past and learned from them.

BetsOfBitcoin could not verify identity at all, afaik.  How could they?



Thats the thing, some people take precautions, some not; some use protection, some end up with unexpected kids Tongue

Or more seriously, some people are adverse to risks, some love them...

Well when I said that of BoB I'm assuming that someone that runs the site has access to all the private keys of all the address and the database that states which address belongs to which user; and that such person is willing to do all the verification and sign a message with the involved address stating it belongs to person x and that it should be refunded to address z. Other than lack of willingness I don't see why it couldn't be done.
My guess because bets are anonymous.  I haven't checked in a year or so but last time I was there you send to a BTC address and if you won, it was sent back.  Never did I need to put in a piece of identifiable information.

I just checked, now you need a login.  They could *probably* do this if they were so inclined.  I'm just trying to figure out why they should when snackman was trying to scam all the legit bettors out of their winnings?

Thats the thing, how you know he was trying to scam the other bettors of their winnings and not trying to place a legit bet? Its a very thin line. I haven't actually check what he bet and at what time, but if the bet was still open at the time he initiated the transfer I don't see how he was doing this; and even if he did initiated the bet late, how do you know he was actually trying to scam and not making an honest mistake?

A good policy will only affect the scammers and not the honest people as well. From what I read here I have a very reasonable doubt he was actually trying to scam the bettors. If someone here can explain with details how he was trying to achieve this I might change my mind, but the system already rejects late bets, how is it that this late bet is different than the others? This is actually the fishy point that keeps bugging me.

Don't get me wrong, I never bet on the betting sites, mainly because I'm too paranoid and most of them look like they where not professionally done. I'm adverse to risks and I think that I'm not only risking in loosing the bet but in being scammed as well. Anyone could actually put up a decently looking betting site and wait for the fish to bet and take their money. I never actually checked them but I saw some fishy sites every now and then posted in the forum. If snackman was actually trying to scam the bettors I think it is bitbet's duty to show irrefutable proof of this; not only because it the right thing to do, but because I'm pretty sure it will affect their reputation if they don't. Right now if you google bitbet scam you will find 61600 results, which 3240 are posts from this forum. At the moment the amount of people adopting btc are comparable to the amount of people buying iphones (keiser's report), if this site wants to capture the emerging market, it should have clear, just and user friendly policies. I'm pretty sure there are a lot of newbie mistakes to be made on a lot of sites related to btc, and if the user actually made an honest mistake then the site is actually scamming the user. Investors of this site should actually be more worried about the site reputation than the measly 10 btc divided threw all of them. I don't actually get how come the support haven't tried to clear this up yet, my only clue is badly paid third party support...

This is at least my point of view, anyone is free to correct me if I'm wrong or to show proof the snackman was indeed trying to scam the rest of the bettors.


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November 21, 2013, 09:20:58 PM
 #113

Apparently it won't be, since some people here seem to think stealing from its users is a commendable practice.

Seriously, how would you handle the case "someone sends an unconfirmed TX right before the bet ends, TX confirms after the bet has been decided" ?

Refund?
You want to discourage scammers, not have to guess every time whether the request is legitimate or not.

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November 21, 2013, 09:24:58 PM
 #114

and if the user actually made an honest mistake then the site is actually scamming the user

Your reasoning flaw is here, the site can not, and should not have to guess whether the request is legitimate or if a scammer is trying to get a refund on an attempted cheat.
It makes perfect sense from a business perspective to take a very clear position should this kind of stuff arise.


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November 21, 2013, 09:26:30 PM
 #115

Apparently it won't be, since some people here seem to think stealing from its users is a commendable practice.

Seriously, how would you handle the case "someone sends an unconfirmed TX right before the bet ends, TX confirms after the bet has been decided" ?

Refund?
You want to discourage scammers, not have to guess every time whether the request is legitimate or not.

Just add a reasonable fee for this kind of refund, it is more than enough to keep scammers away. Charge, let's say, 5% of the amount received. There is also the case "someone sends a transaction not so right before the bet ends, TX confirms after the bet has been decided", refund at 5% fee, too, obviously.

I can't even start to understand why you think this is not the proper way, and stealing is the correct choice. MP really got a legion of fans.
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November 21, 2013, 09:37:47 PM
 #116

Apparently it won't be, since some people here seem to think stealing from its users is a commendable practice.

Seriously, how would you handle the case "someone sends an unconfirmed TX right before the bet ends, TX confirms after the bet has been decided" ?

Refund?
You want to discourage scammers, not have to guess every time whether the request is legitimate or not.

Just add a reasonable fee for this kind of refund, it is more than enough to keep scammers away. Charge, let's say, 5% of the amount received. There is also the case "someone sends a transaction not so right before the bet ends, TX confirms after the bet has been decided", refund at 5% fee, too, obviously.

I can't even start to understand why you think this is not the proper way, and stealing is the correct choice. MP really got a legion of fans.

The underlying theme of any MP-affiliated business is that the rules will be set up to protect that business's bitcoins at all costs, despite their user-unfriendliness. The unfortunate fact is that even though its very unlikely that OP was trying to scam, bitcoinland is full of people that can and do scam any service or person that has an exploitable weakness. The level of fraud among bitcoin users is tremendous, much higher than any other consumer financial environment. Hence, rules that seem reasonable based on real-world experience where perhaps 2% of transactions are attempted fraud leave bitcoin businesses too exposed, as this is an environment where perhaps 20-50% of transactions are attempted fraud.
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November 21, 2013, 09:47:13 PM
 #117

Apparently it won't be, since some people here seem to think stealing from its users is a commendable practice.

Seriously, how would you handle the case "someone sends an unconfirmed TX right before the bet ends, TX confirms after the bet has been decided" ?

Refund?
You want to discourage scammers, not have to guess every time whether the request is legitimate or not.
Refund.

If you don't want people to bet right before the bet ends, then simply reduce the potential winnings gradually right near the end.  For example, if they bet 10 minutes before the bet ends, only give them 10% of the winnings they would have had if they had bet 100 minutes before the bet ends, and spread the other 90% across to the other winners.  If it's 25 minutes beforehand, give them 25% of the winnings.  Etc, etc.  But if they lose the bet, they lose 100% of their bet.

It's not complicated, and you avoid stealing people's money without good reason.

Again I ask, what is your affiliation with this site?
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November 21, 2013, 09:53:30 PM
 #118

The operator of bitbet should return the coins and stop treating the FAQ as an excuse to take other people's property.

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fcmatt
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November 21, 2013, 10:05:42 PM
 #119

If you don't want people to bet right before the bet ends, then simply reduce the potential winnings gradually right near the end.
This is already the case, which shows you still haven't read the FAQ.  Shocked

I am reading the FAQ and if the website is coded this poorly I am amazed anyone in their right mind would use it.

"What if I created a bet address but can't bet right now?

Once you enter a receiving address and are given a send-to address, you have 3 days (72 hours) to send your bet. If your bet does not make it within 72 hours then that address will be reclaimed. BitBet will be unable to send you your BTC back, as they will have probably been allocated to someone else's bet! Always make sure that you send your first bet on a created address within 3 days of its creation. "

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freethink2013
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November 21, 2013, 10:27:44 PM
 #120

You should at least report the domain name for fake details.

http://www.whois.us/whoiscompliance/ComplaintMain.jsp I suggest you report both PoliMedia.us and bitbet.us

Then we can find out who's really behind this scam. As far as I can see they are some failed company  Norsena aka "Polimedia"[1] that's currently in Forfeited Existence[2] in texas. There's no privacy in .us domains. Let's see how soon the site changes domain name lol. polimedia.us points to that joke exchange that also takes most revenue .

Registrant Name: MARTHA MCCULLER
Registrant Organization: NORSENA
Registrant Street: 14781 MEMORIAL DR.
Registrant Street: APT 2454
Registrant City: HOUSTON
Registrant State/Province: TX - See more at: http://www.enom.com/whois/default.aspx?DomainName=PoliMedia.us#sthash.MFi6lY2k.dpuf

Here's the Norsena Co. details
http://www.wysk.com/index/texas/austin/8xt3ltu/norsena-inc/profile
Tax Forfeiture 02/08/2013 02/09/2013

bitbet.us make almost half their income from people like the op. The "Shareholders" aka apologists/paid shills on this thread should consider that and remember that being part of this fraud makes you a co-conspirator.

[1] http://www.enom.com/whois/default.aspx?DomainName=PoliMedia.us
[2] http://direct.sos.state.tx.us/help/help-corp.asp?pg=ov
sangaman
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November 21, 2013, 10:35:34 PM
 #121

Apparently it won't be, since some people here seem to think stealing from its users is a commendable practice.

Seriously, how would you handle the case "someone sends an unconfirmed TX right before the bet ends, TX confirms after the bet has been decided" ?

Refund?
You want to discourage scammers, not have to guess every time whether the request is legitimate or not.

Yes, refund minus some fee for the inconvenience. I don't see how it's scamming if the bet is at all in question when the transaction was made. If the price is at $749, is it a scam to bet that it will hit $750? What about $740? $700?

It's very simple as I see it, don't count bets that confirm after the bet is over. That way nobody can cheat the system. If someone tries to make a late bet and the transaction doesn't confirm, return the money minus a small fee. That money is not yours to keep, it's not yours at all. And in situations like the one OP bet in, price can move VERY fast and confirmations can take 30 minutes+ even with a generous fee sometimes. In fact I was watching the price that day and I wouldn't be surprised if the price on the exchanges went from ~$700 or so to $750 in a matter of minutes.
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November 21, 2013, 10:47:15 PM
 #122

If you don't want people to bet right before the bet ends, then simply reduce the potential winnings gradually right near the end.
This is already the case, which shows you still haven't read the FAQ.  Shocked
Then why is there any worry about last-minute bidders "scamming" other people at all?
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November 21, 2013, 11:02:19 PM
 #123

If you don't want people to bet right before the bet ends, then simply reduce the potential winnings gradually right near the end.
This is already the case, which shows you still haven't read the FAQ.  Shocked
Then why is there any worry about last-minute bidders "scamming" other people at all?

We're dealing with mid-intelligence criminals here. MP pays them "dividends" from people she's ripped off and then they slap each other on the back. Circlejerks like that seldom make sense.

All MP's 'businesses' would be in the red if they had to stop stealing. S/he managed to run a company in the real world for how long before going bust? And how many tens of dollars did he/she make in those years?

I used to know a few criminals back in the day and the attitude of MP reminds me of them. They used to say stuff like "Someone leaving a window open deserve to be robbed - the idiots!" or "What did the stupid bitch expect leaving her handbag on the floor?"

Absolutely no difference between those crims and bitbet. The thing about both groups is they prey on people being trusting. They think someone trusting someone else is a fool. I expect MP was abandoned as a child and this is how s/he gets back at the world. Fuck all these criminals. All they ever get is a very short term gain then a life full of misery.
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November 21, 2013, 11:19:24 PM
 #124

If you don't want people to bet right before the bet ends, then simply reduce the potential winnings gradually right near the end.
This is already the case, which shows you still haven't read the FAQ.  Shocked
Then why is there any worry about last-minute bidders "scamming" other people at all?
It's about betting after the result is known.
You really read nothing, did you? Perhaps do that before taking a side.
Your own sig admits you are a paid shill.

"Hire me" https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=240677.0

I wonder how much you got paid for this thread. I doubt you even got a whole bitcoin. You're the bottom feeder that other bottom feeders shit on.
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November 21, 2013, 11:27:13 PM
 #125

If you don't want people to bet right before the bet ends, then simply reduce the potential winnings gradually right near the end.
This is already the case, which shows you still haven't read the FAQ.  Shocked
Then why is there any worry about last-minute bidders "scamming" other people at all?
It's about betting after the result is known.
You really read nothing, did you? Perhaps do that before taking a side.
If the result of a bet becomes known prior to the bet deadline, then no further bets should be taken.  People can be free to send more money in, but they would get exactly 0% of the winnings, only having their money refunded.

How is this a hard thing for people to figure out?  I don't get it.
freethink2013
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November 21, 2013, 11:35:13 PM
 #126

Your own sig admits you are a paid shill.
First, read it. None of the work is going under the username "pankkake".
Second, try to make your brain work. Would I advertise it on the very account I would do it, if I was paid to? Would I advertise it if I thought it would harm my credibility in any way? Perhaps you're not as clever as you think you are.
Third, if I was paid, how does that invalidate anything? MPOE-PR is paid, for example, does that mean she is wrong?
Fourth, explain this.

Quote
I wonder how much you got paid for this thread. I doubt you even got a whole bitcoin. You're the bottom feeder that other bottom feeders shit on.
Zero, and I lost on that bet!

Quote
I doubt you even got a whole bitcoin. You're the bottom feeder that other bottom feeders shit on.
Given the amount of time I spent on this thread, I certainly would not make anyone pay one bitcoin, I'd consider 0.1 BTC to be a very good tip.
Given how much I loled, I'd pay to read this thread.
TL;DR Learn to ad hominem.

You're an admitted paid shill. Wipe that shit off your lips. I've no interest in reading your thread as it's written by you and you're posting for bitcoin and will post whatever you are paid to post.

Oh we're supposed to expect a WEAK character like you will only expect money to post in your comedy alt not in your serious, honest pankkake account; yet here you are an apologist shill.
freethink2013
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November 21, 2013, 11:41:12 PM
 #127

You're an admitted paid shill. wipe that shit off your lips.
...and as expected, a reply void of any arguments. Checkmate!

I doubt you even understand checkers let alone chess. It's checkmate when I have no more moves.

This is way above your pay grade shitface.

When's your girlfriend back anyway?
freethink2013
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November 21, 2013, 11:54:38 PM
 #128

You're an admitted paid shill. wipe that shit off your lips.
...and as expected, a reply void of any arguments. Checkmate!

I doubt you even understand checkers let alone chess. It's checkmate when I have no more moves.

This is way above your pay grade shitface.

When's your girlfriend back anyway?

So much butthurt.
Now you understand why I'd pay just to read this thread Smiley

I don't have a dog in this race, unlike you bitchboy. I'm here purely because I want to be not because I was paid. My butt is absolutely fine. If it was hurting I'm sure I could pay a shill like you 0.00001bitcoin to kiss it better.

Is there anything you won't do for bitcoin dust? Do you consider yourself a rent-boy or do you have a different name for it? Genuine question.
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November 22, 2013, 12:00:54 AM
 #129

Hopefully, they will spread the word that BitBet is a scam site run by thieves.
Which is false, but I understand guess blackmail is OK with you.
What you should know is that you're far from the first wanting to do that. What do you think would happen if any company catered towards any of those requests?

You do realize no one was able to provide a valid argument which makes bitbet's policy a legit reason for keeping those btc, right? So far in the whole post every time it was questioned all the answers where insults. I hope you can clarify from a technical point of view why this is valid.

The BitBet policy needs no "legit reason". It IS the policy. That's it, what BitBet says is what is. No "legit"-ing around by unrelated parties on forums can change what the policy is.

Re-read my posts in this thread and copy them by hand on your notebook. They're not optional for you, they're mandatory.

You do realize that not agreeing with someone's policy is not enough to build a court case?
The policy is there, if you don't agree don't use the site. But if you call it "theft", you're a scammer.
I don't think you understand how policies work in court.  A court would never uphold a policy that states "I have the right to steal your money," which is effectivly what bitbet's policy says.


The only court which might have had any authority here would have been the Rota. Unfortunately, that died. So whatever, GLWT.

Quote
5.1. This contract is the sole and complete agreement between the parties. It may not be modified by third parties, irrespective if said parties should style themselves "court of law", "judge" or otherwise.

From, you know, the contract.

My Credentials  | THE BTC Stock Exchange | I have my very own anthology! | Use bitcointa.lk, it's like this one but better.
freethink2013
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November 22, 2013, 12:07:13 AM
 #130

The only court which might have had any authority here would have been the Rota. Unfortunately, that died.
Woof?! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Rota?

Corrected for you, running dog. As previously stated I'm only here for my own entertainment. There's no money in it for me
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November 22, 2013, 12:07:29 AM
 #131

Well when I said that of BoB I'm assuming that someone that runs the site has access to all the private keys of all the address and the database that states which address belongs to which user; and that such person is willing to do all the verification and sign a message with the involved address stating it belongs to person x and that it should be refunded to address z. Other than lack of willingness I don't see why it couldn't be done.



The only court which might have had any authority here would have been the Rota. Unfortunately, that died.
Wut? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Rota?

http://trilema.com/category/rota/

But good call, I hear that was the reference.

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November 22, 2013, 12:13:01 AM
 #132

If you don't want people to bet right before the bet ends, then simply reduce the potential winnings gradually right near the end.
This is already the case, which shows you still haven't read the FAQ.  Shocked

I am reading the FAQ and if the website is coded this poorly I am amazed anyone in their right mind would use it.

"What if I created a bet address but can't bet right now?

Once you enter a receiving address and are given a send-to address, you have 3 days (72 hours) to send your bet. If your bet does not make it within 72 hours then that address will be reclaimed. BitBet will be unable to send you your BTC back, as they will have probably been allocated to someone else's bet! Always make sure that you send your first bet on a created address within 3 days of its creation. "


You happen to be wrong, on both scores. Your wrongness has been happily entered into the record, we can lol at it in a few years, np.

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November 22, 2013, 01:58:09 AM
 #133

This is why Bitcoin`s lack of a chargeback medium and lack of consumer protections in general is so dangerous; it allows criminal enterprises such as this which are located offshore and away from US jurisdiction to take advantage of consumer trust with very little in the way of counter measures. It`s a major issue that Bitcoin will need to address to remain relevant, IMO.

As for anyone in this thread that actually defends BitBet`s decision to confiscate the OP`s money... if you`re not one of the company `shareholders`  Roll Eyes then you really need to get your head checked. I readily admit that I don`t read all 46 pages of Apple`s user consent when I use iTunes, but I would certainly be protected by my bank`s consumer protections if iTunes decided to confiscate my money for some asinine reason. `Oh, that song was only available for a limited time, and we received your payment from your bank after that limit was met. However, we`ll still gladly accept your payment and provide you nothing in return. Sorry, but you`re screwed` Haha, I don`t think so.

Night gathers, and now my bitcoinwisdom watch begins.
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November 22, 2013, 02:20:01 AM
 #134

So, charge back every time you lose a bet? That is so going to work!

Oh sorry, I thought I read that the OP sent the coins while the bet was still active, but the coins were confirmed and arrived after the bet had closed, in which case you certainly agree that his money should be refunded.

But what you`re saying is, his coins arrived to BitBet`s wallet while the bet was still active, and the bet was then lost. Right?

Night gathers, and now my bitcoinwisdom watch begins.
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November 22, 2013, 02:33:20 AM
 #135

Oh sorry, I thought I read that the OP sent the coins while the bet was still active, but the coins were confirmed and arrived after the bet had closed,
That's right.

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November 22, 2013, 02:45:21 AM
 #136

Oh sorry, I thought I read that the OP sent the coins while the bet was still active, but the coins were confirmed and arrived after the bet had closed,
That's right.
Pankakke must either be confused regarding the original issue or he`s intentionally being dishonest. Given his record so far, I`d suppose it`s the latter.

For the record, I agree that a chargeback feature would be difficult or perhaps impossible to implement to the Bitcoin protocol. As George W Bush said, `Freedom isn`t free.` The freedom that comes with Bitcoin is paid by the means of proliferation of scam sites such as BitBet who operate under impunity from the law. Bitcoin is able to operate with low/no transaction fees because there are no services tacked on to protect consumers, which should be a reminder that users should take maximum precautions when dealing with any merchant or service provider with the Bitcoin protocol, as they can essentially confiscate your coins for any arbitrary reason.

Night gathers, and now my bitcoinwisdom watch begins.
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November 22, 2013, 04:42:28 AM
 #137

If you don't want people to bet right before the bet ends, then simply reduce the potential winnings gradually right near the end.
This is already the case, which shows you still haven't read the FAQ.  Shocked
Then why is there any worry about last-minute bidders "scamming" other people at all?
It's about betting after the result is known.
You really read nothing, did you? Perhaps do that before taking a side.
Bets that arrive after the result is known should be refunded. If the bet placed was actually:
Quote
The price of bitcoin in USD as per MtGox or Bitstamp via bitcoincharts will be over 750 USD before April 17th, 2014 AND this bet will arrive to BitBet before the price crosses 750.
It should have said as much on the front page of the wager.

Your site also allows users to lose bitcoin wagering on the winning bet. To whom is that bitcoin distributed?

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November 22, 2013, 03:40:46 PM
 #138

Hopefully, they will spread the word that BitBet is a scam site run by thieves.
Which is false, but I understand guess blackmail is OK with you.
What you should know is that you're far from the first wanting to do that. What do you think would happen if any company catered towards any of those requests?

You do realize no one was able to provide a valid argument which makes bitbet's policy a legit reason for keeping those btc, right? So far in the whole post every time it was questioned all the answers where insults. I hope you can clarify from a technical point of view why this is valid.

The BitBet policy needs no "legit reason". It IS the policy. That's it, what BitBet says is what is. No "legit"-ing around by unrelated parties on forums can change what the policy is.

Re-read my posts in this thread and copy them by hand on your notebook. They're not optional for you, they're mandatory.

You do realize that not agreeing with someone's policy is not enough to build a court case?
The policy is there, if you don't agree don't use the site. But if you call it "theft", you're a scammer.
I don't think you understand how policies work in court.  A court would never uphold a policy that states "I have the right to steal your money," which is effectivly what bitbet's policy says.


The only court which might have had any authority here would have been the Rota. Unfortunately, that died. So whatever, GLWT.

Quote
5.1. This contract is the sole and complete agreement between the parties. It may not be modified by third parties, irrespective if said parties should style themselves "court of law", "judge" or otherwise.

From, you know, the contract.

Well when I said that of BoB I'm assuming that someone that runs the site has access to all the private keys of all the address and the database that states which address belongs to which user; and that such person is willing to do all the verification and sign a message with the involved address stating it belongs to person x and that it should be refunded to address z. Other than lack of willingness I don't see why it couldn't be done.



The only court which might have had any authority here would have been the Rota. Unfortunately, that died.
Wut? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Rota?

http://trilema.com/category/rota/

But good call, I hear that was the reference.


You see what I mean? If you give arguments and reason people will respect you. Given that you actually are a representative of bitbet.us, right? If your only answer are insults when people question a policy hidden under FAQs, the whole community will consider you as a scammer (no user has the obligation to read faqs to use a service btw...)

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snackman
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November 22, 2013, 03:46:49 PM
 #139

This is apparently not the first, or even the second time, that BitBet has scammed its users.

Hopefully it's the last.
Apparently it won't be, since some people here seem to think stealing from its users is a commendable practice.

You see what I mean? If you give arguments and reason people will respect you. Given that you actually are a representative of bitbet.us, right? If your only answer are insults when people question a policy hidden under FAQs, the whole community will consider you as a scammer (no user has the obligation to read faqs to use a service btw...)

As far as I can tell, the dissenters in this thread are either confused, exposed (i.e. shareholders), or bribed. There has been a lot of name calling, but there has not been one coherent argument as to why my bet should not be refunded.

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tonyq
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November 22, 2013, 03:58:48 PM
 #140

I run www.bitcoinpunter.com
My traffic is pleasing...I come out on the first page when people google all of the most common phrases regarding where they can bet with bitcoin.
What I don't have as yet, is a section telling people the outfits I think they should avoid.
I think I'll be doing one now though. and I certainly know who is going to be the first one mentioned after reading this thread.
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November 22, 2013, 04:14:28 PM
 #141

Now Bitbet have a good opportunity to use the common sense , refund the money, and change his betting rules to avoid this issue to happen again in the future.
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November 22, 2013, 04:20:53 PM
 #142

Having a policy you do not agree with does not make something "stealing", and screaming "gimme my money or I'll say bad things on the reddits" make you a scammer. I'm not saying anything more.
Having a policy also does not give bitbet the right to steal funds, the same as it wouldn't give bitbet the right to murder people.  Wrong and unlawful is still wrong and unlawful regardless of what policy you have in place.
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