Bitcoin Forum
November 21, 2017, 09:35:03 PM *
News: Latest stable version of Bitcoin Core: 0.15.1  [Torrent].
 
   Home   Help Search Donate Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 »  All
  Print  
Author Topic: Is Bitcoin a Pyramid or Ponzi scheme & what are the ramifications?  (Read 10658 times)
Buffer Overflow
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1652



View Profile
November 30, 2013, 06:32:42 AM
 #121

I thought this thread would of finished now. Didn't the majority (excluding AnonyMint obviously) draw the conclusion Bitcoin isn't a ponzi/pyramid?

1511300103
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1511300103

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1511300103
Reply with quote  #2

1511300103
Report to moderator
1511300103
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1511300103

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1511300103
Reply with quote  #2

1511300103
Report to moderator
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
AnonyMint
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 518


View Profile
November 30, 2013, 06:56:37 AM
 #122

Fiat ponzi fails horrifically often with megadeath, e.g. Wiemar (communist) Germany then Hitler, Zimbabwe, Argentina, etc. It is not a comparison you want to be associated with.

unheresy.com - Prodigiously Elucidating the Profoundly ObtuseTHIS FORUM ACCOUNT IS NO LONGER ACTIVE
AnonyMint
Hero Member
*****
Offline Offline

Activity: 518


View Profile
November 30, 2013, 08:23:02 AM
 #123

Quote from: Bitcoin Forum
A reply of yours, quoted below, was deleted by the starter of a self-moderated topic. There are no rules of self-moderation, so this deletion cannot be appealed. Do not continue posting in this topic if the topic-starter has requested that you leave.

You can create a new topic if you are unsatisfied with this one. If the topic-starter is scamming, post about it in Scam Accusations.

Quote
In my opinion it is a great testimony that we just crossed 100,000,000% value appreciation  Grin

It is truly amazing. What historic assets or companies have risen that much? Are there others?

I would say, no. It is "easy" to have a 1000x value appreciation with startups, perhaps 10,000x is possible. 100,000x hardly.

A MILLION TIMES INCREASE IN 4 YEARS 10 MONTHS IS A NEVER BEFORE IN WRITTEN HISTORY EVENT.

You pick an arbitrary transaction between private parties to create some irrational hyperbole.

Heck if I note that Dori in a Thirld World country internet cafe gave me free internet access ($0.25 per hour normally) in exchange for my promise to share some of the ownership of Art-O-matic, then does that mean I count the gain after 3 years of the $1.2 million IPO valuation that I was offered in 2001 as a counter-example to your claim.

Have you priced the Tulip mania in comparison? Are you sure you really want to show the "investment" only matches manias and not real investments throughout history?

The gloating is what people who deserve to lose their talents do, because they aren't productive any more, because they've been made too rich to do any real work.

I guess you will delete this post too.

unheresy.com - Prodigiously Elucidating the Profoundly ObtuseTHIS FORUM ACCOUNT IS NO LONGER ACTIVE
mdude77
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1484



View Profile
November 30, 2013, 03:42:18 PM
 #124

Gary North has cast his vote...

http://www.garynorth.com/public/11828.cfm

M

I'm X-Fueled.  Are you? 
Tip for NiceHash: use their wallet to decrease fees!  Check out Helium!  Referral for Cryptopia.
Hawker
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 952



View Profile WWW
November 30, 2013, 04:34:20 PM
 #125

Gary North has cast his vote...

http://www.garynorth.com/public/11828.cfm

M

Interesting.  He starts by saying social security is a ponzi scheme and that dollars are not really money.

Sadly, I lost the urge to carry on past that part.  If you read it all, I salute your indefatigability.

           ▄▄███████▄▄
        ▄███▀▀
▄▄▄▄    ▀▄
     ▄▄█████████████▄▄  ▀▄
  ▄▀▀██▀           ▀▀██▄▄▀▄
▄▀  ██                 ▀██
  ██       ▀▀█▀▀         █
█▀        █ █ █        ▄█▀▄
▀▄         █ █ █       ▄█  █
 ██         █▄▄▄█      ▄█  ▄▀
  ██▄                ▄█▀  ▄▀
  ▀▄▀██▄▄          ▄█▀  ▄▀
   ▀▄ ▀▀███▄▄▄▄▄▄█████▀▀
     ▀▀▄▄▄▄▄▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
.UTRUST.▀████████▄
  ▀███████▄
    ▀██████▄
      ▀██████
       ▀█████
        ▀████▄
         █████
          ▀███
           ███
           ▀██
            ██
             █
             █
●  Download WHITEPAPER  ●
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ ▼ ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
facebook      twitter      slack
▀████████▄
  ▀███████▄
    ▀██████▄
      ▀██████
       ▀█████
        ▀████▄
         █████
          ▀███
           ███
           ▀██
            ██
             █
             █
Impaler
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 392



View Profile
November 30, 2013, 06:15:07 PM
 #126

Mint:  If your arguing that hard money will be rejected by the people and can only be forcefully imposed by government that is indeed a more nuanced position then I had originally though you had.  But I would still disagree.

I believe that individuals DO crave hard money, everyone knows that if they possess a harder form of money then everyone else they will be advantaged.  It's like the classic prisoners-dilemma where you win by betraying your partner, hard money is when everyone is betraying everyone.  This is why people (particularly 'libertarian' types who view other people only as means to their own ends) are attracted to things like BTC, their is a natural greedy response to acquire hard money like a 'sweet tooth' that makes us eat too much sugar, the systemic effects are terrible but most people do not think systemically so we end up stuck in a sub-optimal situation.  Basically I see a logical bottom-up explanation for how we got here so I don't attribute it to a top-down cabal, I always turn to the conspiratorial theories LAST.


Their are certainly instances in history were central authority forces hard money onto the populous (usually by taking away soft-money) but we can see from the rabid BTC zealots that exist that the imposition of hard money will be meet with Cheers and Applause by large swaths of the masses.  Thus is it not JUST a problem of government, and particularly now that so much inertia is built up behind it.  Most people only know our current money system which is harder then it should be (BTC is hyper-hard by comparison).  Given the existence of gold as an easily mined, easily traded commodity it is very easy to see how it became money all over the world, no central authority is necessary to do that.  Most negative government action has been in the form of suppression of alternatives to hard money (or the softening of the money standard ) rather then to create the norm of hard money in the first place.

FRC:  18mAGEto3xZzfKNJPwsDVA5c2Fk5Za3nbs  http://www.freicoin.org  IRC:  Freenode #freicoin
mdude77
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1484



View Profile
November 30, 2013, 06:17:27 PM
 #127

Gary North has cast his vote...

http://www.garynorth.com/public/11828.cfm

M

Interesting.  He starts by saying social security is a ponzi scheme and that dollars are not really money.

Do you disagree?

Quote
Sadly, I lost the urge to carry on past that part.  If you read it all, I salute your indefatigability.

If you're new to Austrian economics, it takes a bit to adjust to it.  I've been reading his stuff for a while, and I think it's good stuff.

I think what he's basically saying is Bitcoin has the capacity to become money, ie, something used by the common person as a medium to exchange goods.  However, because it's currently viewed by many as an investment (buy now, sell later), sooner or later you run out of buyers.  When that happens, it's going to crash, and a lot of people are going to lose a lot of money.  That will cause a stigma to be associated with it, which will kill its ability to be used as money.

My $.02: every fiat currency out there is doomed.  It's just a matter of time.  Bitcoin might survive solely because the banksters that think they run the world use fiat because it works well for them.  When the world wakes up from its lethargy and decides to use real money, bitcoin might survive vs real money (gold/silver), but then again, it might not.

M

I'm X-Fueled.  Are you? 
Tip for NiceHash: use their wallet to decrease fees!  Check out Helium!  Referral for Cryptopia.
Hawker
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 952



View Profile WWW
November 30, 2013, 06:30:25 PM
 #128

Gary North has cast his vote...

http://www.garynorth.com/public/11828.cfm

M

Interesting.  He starts by saying social security is a ponzi scheme and that dollars are not really money.

Do you disagree?

Quote
Sadly, I lost the urge to carry on past that part.  If you read it all, I salute your indefatigability.

If you're new to Austrian economics, it takes a bit to adjust to it.  I've been reading his stuff for a while, and I think it's good stuff.

I think what he's basically saying is Bitcoin has the capacity to become money, ie, something used by the common person as a medium to exchange goods.  However, because it's currently viewed by many as an investment (buy now, sell later), sooner or later you run out of buyers.  When that happens, it's going to crash, and a lot of people are going to lose a lot of money.  That will cause a stigma to be associated with it, which will kill its ability to be used as money.

My $.02: every fiat currency out there is doomed.  It's just a matter of time.  Bitcoin might survive solely because the banksters that think they run the world use fiat because it works well for them.  When the world wakes up from its lethargy and decides to use real money, bitcoin might survive vs real money (gold/silver), but then again, it might not.

M

Have you read the article?  He is very clear that Bitcoin cannot be a currency as currencies can't be planned.

I'm familiar with the Austrian guff.  Basically all growth since the invention of paper money is regarded as unnatural and all forms of economic management are regarded as intrinsically bad.  It does nothing for me.

           ▄▄███████▄▄
        ▄███▀▀
▄▄▄▄    ▀▄
     ▄▄█████████████▄▄  ▀▄
  ▄▀▀██▀           ▀▀██▄▄▀▄
▄▀  ██                 ▀██
  ██       ▀▀█▀▀         █
█▀        █ █ █        ▄█▀▄
▀▄         █ █ █       ▄█  █
 ██         █▄▄▄█      ▄█  ▄▀
  ██▄                ▄█▀  ▄▀
  ▀▄▀██▄▄          ▄█▀  ▄▀
   ▀▄ ▀▀███▄▄▄▄▄▄█████▀▀
     ▀▀▄▄▄▄▄▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
.UTRUST.▀████████▄
  ▀███████▄
    ▀██████▄
      ▀██████
       ▀█████
        ▀████▄
         █████
          ▀███
           ███
           ▀██
            ██
             █
             █
●  Download WHITEPAPER  ●
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ ▼ ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
facebook      twitter      slack
▀████████▄
  ▀███████▄
    ▀██████▄
      ▀██████
       ▀█████
        ▀████▄
         █████
          ▀███
           ███
           ▀██
            ██
             █
             █
mdude77
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1484



View Profile
November 30, 2013, 07:15:56 PM
 #129

My $.02: every fiat currency out there is doomed.  It's just a matter of time.  Bitcoin might survive solely because the banksters that think they run the world use fiat because it works well for them.  When the world wakes up from its lethargy and decides to use real money, bitcoin might survive vs real money (gold/silver), but then again, it might not.

Have you read the article?  He is very clear that Bitcoin cannot be a currency as currencies can't be planned.

I did.  Where did I state he said otherwise?  I gave my $.02 worth, which differs from his.

Quote
I'm familiar with the Austrian guff.  Basically all growth since the invention of paper money is regarded as unnatural and all forms of economic management are regarded as intrinsically bad.  It does nothing for me.

And today's systems are working great, aren't they?

M

I'm X-Fueled.  Are you? 
Tip for NiceHash: use their wallet to decrease fees!  Check out Helium!  Referral for Cryptopia.
Hawker
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 952



View Profile WWW
November 30, 2013, 07:21:09 PM
 #130

My $.02: every fiat currency out there is doomed.  It's just a matter of time.  Bitcoin might survive solely because the banksters that think they run the world use fiat because it works well for them.  When the world wakes up from its lethargy and decides to use real money, bitcoin might survive vs real money (gold/silver), but then again, it might not.

Have you read the article?  He is very clear that Bitcoin cannot be a currency as currencies can't be planned.

I did.  Where did I state he said otherwise?  I gave my $.02 worth, which differs from his.

Quote
I'm familiar with the Austrian guff.  Basically all growth since the invention of paper money is regarded as unnatural and all forms of economic management are regarded as intrinsically bad.  It does nothing for me.

And today's systems are working great, aren't they?

M

"Here is the central fact of money. Money is the product of the market process. It arises out of an unplanned, decentralized process. This takes time. It takes a lot of time."

Thats both the dollar and Bitcoin ruled out.

Today's systems are working fine.  You could argue that things might be a bit better but overall things are fine.

           ▄▄███████▄▄
        ▄███▀▀
▄▄▄▄    ▀▄
     ▄▄█████████████▄▄  ▀▄
  ▄▀▀██▀           ▀▀██▄▄▀▄
▄▀  ██                 ▀██
  ██       ▀▀█▀▀         █
█▀        █ █ █        ▄█▀▄
▀▄         █ █ █       ▄█  █
 ██         █▄▄▄█      ▄█  ▄▀
  ██▄                ▄█▀  ▄▀
  ▀▄▀██▄▄          ▄█▀  ▄▀
   ▀▄ ▀▀███▄▄▄▄▄▄█████▀▀
     ▀▀▄▄▄▄▄▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
.UTRUST.▀████████▄
  ▀███████▄
    ▀██████▄
      ▀██████
       ▀█████
        ▀████▄
         █████
          ▀███
           ███
           ▀██
            ██
             █
             █
●  Download WHITEPAPER  ●
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ ▼ ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
facebook      twitter      slack
▀████████▄
  ▀███████▄
    ▀██████▄
      ▀██████
       ▀█████
        ▀████▄
         █████
          ▀███
           ███
           ▀██
            ██
             █
             █
CoinCube
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1302



View Profile
November 30, 2013, 07:26:26 PM
 #131

Mint:  If your arguing that hard money will be rejected by the people and can only be forcefully imposed by government that is indeed a more nuanced position then I had originally though you had.  But I would still disagree.

I believe that individuals DO crave hard money, everyone knows that if they possess a harder form of money then everyone else they will be advantaged.  It's like the classic prisoners-dilemma where you win by betraying your partner, hard money is when everyone is betraying everyone.  This is why people (particularly 'libertarian' types who view other people only as means to their own ends) are attracted to things like BTC, their is a natural greedy response to acquire hard money like a 'sweet tooth' that makes us eat too much sugar, the systemic effects are terrible but most people do not think systemically so we end up stuck in a sub-optimal situation.  Basically I see a logical bottom-up explanation for how we got here so I don't attribute it to a top-down cabal, I always turn to the conspiratorial theories LAST.


Their are certainly instances in history were central authority forces hard money onto the populous (usually by taking away soft-money) but we can see from the rabid BTC zealots that exist that the imposition of hard money will be meet with Cheers and Applause by large swaths of the masses.  Thus is it not JUST a problem of government, and particularly now that so much inertia is built up behind it.  Most people only know our current money system which is harder then it should be (BTC is hyper-hard by comparison).  Given the existence of gold as an easily mined, easily traded commodity it is very easy to see how it became money all over the world, no central authority is necessary to do that.  Most negative government action has been in the form of suppression of alternatives to hard money (or the softening of the money standard ) rather then to create the norm of hard money in the first place.

Impaler: My take is that you and mint are essentially arguing the same point.
You are arguing that hard money accumulates into a few hands over time based on the natural tendency of individual actors acting in what they see as their own best interests and that no government is required for this process to occur.

Mint is arguing that once this occurs to a sufficient degree (gross income inequality) people will demand redistribution via government or if government is not responsive via a new government a la French Revolution. He is arguing that redistribution via government naturally arises as a result of your hording individuals above.

My question for you Mint is what makes you confident that starving governments via an anonymous coin would necessarily improve things. I agree with your underlying premise that we appear to be in a cycle of boom and bust based on finance/fractional banking/debt -> collectivism -> collapse -> gold standard -> restart cycle again. However at the end of each cycle so far knowledge has advanced and passive capital has declined compared to the same point in the cycle before it aka progress.

Removing the governments ability to tax will create other problems such as the inability to regulate and prevent tragedy of the commons type situations that require collective action.

mdude77
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1484



View Profile
November 30, 2013, 07:28:28 PM
 #132

"Here is the central fact of money. Money is the product of the market process. It arises out of an unplanned, decentralized process. This takes time. It takes a lot of time."

Thats both the dollar and Bitcoin ruled out.

How is Bitcoin planned?  It's virtually the antithesis of centralized planning, unless I'm missing something (always possible).

Quote
Today's systems are working fine.  You could argue that things might be a bit better but overall things are fine.

You and I clearly have a different definition of "fine".

M

I'm X-Fueled.  Are you? 
Tip for NiceHash: use their wallet to decrease fees!  Check out Helium!  Referral for Cryptopia.
Hawker
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 952



View Profile WWW
November 30, 2013, 07:33:25 PM
 #133

"Here is the central fact of money. Money is the product of the market process. It arises out of an unplanned, decentralized process. This takes time. It takes a lot of time."

Thats both the dollar and Bitcoin ruled out.

How is Bitcoin planned?  It's virtually the antithesis of centralized planning, unless I'm missing something (always possible).

Quote
Today's systems are working fine.  You could argue that things might be a bit better but overall things are fine.

You and I clearly have a different definition of "fine".

M

It would probably be clearer if you glanced over the Satoshi papers.  Bitcoin is very much a centrally planned project - its the execution that is decentralised.  So the exact amount of Bitcoin is regulated, the difficulty is planned and the end date for mining is set in stone.

In Western countries, the biggest killers of the very poor are diseases caused by too much food and diseases caused by too much leisure.  You can argue that things might be better but in terms of economies doing the stuff I want, things are fine.  

           ▄▄███████▄▄
        ▄███▀▀
▄▄▄▄    ▀▄
     ▄▄█████████████▄▄  ▀▄
  ▄▀▀██▀           ▀▀██▄▄▀▄
▄▀  ██                 ▀██
  ██       ▀▀█▀▀         █
█▀        █ █ █        ▄█▀▄
▀▄         █ █ █       ▄█  █
 ██         █▄▄▄█      ▄█  ▄▀
  ██▄                ▄█▀  ▄▀
  ▀▄▀██▄▄          ▄█▀  ▄▀
   ▀▄ ▀▀███▄▄▄▄▄▄█████▀▀
     ▀▀▄▄▄▄▄▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
.UTRUST.▀████████▄
  ▀███████▄
    ▀██████▄
      ▀██████
       ▀█████
        ▀████▄
         █████
          ▀███
           ███
           ▀██
            ██
             █
             █
●  Download WHITEPAPER  ●
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ ▼ ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
facebook      twitter      slack
▀████████▄
  ▀███████▄
    ▀██████▄
      ▀██████
       ▀█████
        ▀████▄
         █████
          ▀███
           ███
           ▀██
            ██
             █
             █
mdude77
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1484



View Profile
November 30, 2013, 08:56:14 PM
 #134

It would probably be clearer if you glanced over the Satoshi papers.  Bitcoin is very much a centrally planned project - its the execution that is decentralised.  So the exact amount of Bitcoin is regulated, the difficulty is planned and the end date for mining is set in stone.

Noted.  Not sure I'd say that makes it centralized though.

Quote
In Western countries, the biggest killers of the very poor are diseases caused by too much food and diseases caused by too much leisure.  You can argue that things might be better but in terms of economies doing the stuff I want, things are fine.  

Reminds me of the US RDA (recommended daily allowance).  It's what's necessary to keep you alive, not healthy.  That's not my definition of "fine". Smiley

M

I'm X-Fueled.  Are you? 
Tip for NiceHash: use their wallet to decrease fees!  Check out Helium!  Referral for Cryptopia.
Hawker
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 952



View Profile WWW
November 30, 2013, 09:27:49 PM
 #135

It would probably be clearer if you glanced over the Satoshi papers.  Bitcoin is very much a centrally planned project - its the execution that is decentralised.  So the exact amount of Bitcoin is regulated, the difficulty is planned and the end date for mining is set in stone.

Noted.  Not sure I'd say that makes it centralized though.
Its planned - and therefore in Austrian terms, its not money.  Please don't debate semantics on an article that you recommended. 

If the planning part is not convincing enough for you, surely the "BITCOINS ARE NOT MONEY" in bold and in caps should do it.  Your guy does not think Bitcoin is money.  Given that he feels the same way about the dollar, its hardly a surprise!
Quote
Quote
In Western countries, the biggest killers of the very poor are diseases caused by too much food and diseases caused by too much leisure.  You can argue that things might be better but in terms of economies doing the stuff I want, things are fine.  

Reminds me of the US RDA (recommended daily allowance).  It's what's necessary to keep you alive, not healthy.  That's not my definition of "fine". Smiley

M

In response to the fact that in Western countries, the biggest killers of the very poor are diseases caused by too much food and diseases caused by too much leisure, you are wittering about some weird US thing that is fuck all to do with poor people being well fed and not needing to work.  What do you propose? That we police people's diets and chase them with dogs for an hour a day?  Would that be better? 




           ▄▄███████▄▄
        ▄███▀▀
▄▄▄▄    ▀▄
     ▄▄█████████████▄▄  ▀▄
  ▄▀▀██▀           ▀▀██▄▄▀▄
▄▀  ██                 ▀██
  ██       ▀▀█▀▀         █
█▀        █ █ █        ▄█▀▄
▀▄         █ █ █       ▄█  █
 ██         █▄▄▄█      ▄█  ▄▀
  ██▄                ▄█▀  ▄▀
  ▀▄▀██▄▄          ▄█▀  ▄▀
   ▀▄ ▀▀███▄▄▄▄▄▄█████▀▀
     ▀▀▄▄▄▄▄▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
.UTRUST.▀████████▄
  ▀███████▄
    ▀██████▄
      ▀██████
       ▀█████
        ▀████▄
         █████
          ▀███
           ███
           ▀██
            ██
             █
             █
●  Download WHITEPAPER  ●
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ ▼ ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
facebook      twitter      slack
▀████████▄
  ▀███████▄
    ▀██████▄
      ▀██████
       ▀█████
        ▀████▄
         █████
          ▀███
           ███
           ▀██
            ██
             █
             █
selavy59
Jr. Member
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 44


View Profile
November 30, 2013, 09:49:24 PM
 #136

Bitcoin is either a new currency going through a difficult birth or it is the scam of the millenia. Personally I don't think Satoshi intentioned it to be a scam. He had solved the double spend problem and was interested to see how it would evolve. Now whilst Satoshi is a brilliant problem solver and programmer he just didn't take into account human nature. This flaw has turned a fledgling currency into a Frankenstein.

If, at the outset, Satoshi intentioned for all this to happen then he has pulled off a crime of Biblical scale. A new word will enter the English dictionary, and quite possibly many other dictionaries. In years to come we won't just be talking of Pyramid selling, multi-level marketing, boiler rooms and Ponzi's. A Satoshi scam will sit head and shoulders above all other scams. People will ask 'Were you one of the people who got 'Satoshid'?

But out of the bonfire of digital currencies will emerge a new digital currency, one that does take into account the flaws and weaknesses of human nature. It just won't be Bitcoin.
MoonShadow
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1694



View Profile
November 30, 2013, 10:21:07 PM
 #137


Its planned - and therefore in Austrian terms, its not money.  Please don't debate semantics on an article that you recommended. 


I know I'm being nitpicky here, but while I agree that (in an Austrian Economic sense) Bitcoins are not money, the reason for that is not because it is a planned/designed currency.  That would be because the currency unit itself has no alternative use outside of the context of being a currency. (the counter-argument about the use value of the settlement network notwithstanding)  For example, the British Pound was once a planned currency unit, but the actual coins were minted from real gold or silver, so they were also a money.  The definition of what "money" is might need adjustment to include a deliberately designed 'free market' currency system, but probably not.  Most people don't really know what "money" really is, and don't care about the details.

Quote
In Western countries, the biggest killers of the very poor are diseases caused by too much food and diseases caused by too much leisure.  You can argue that things might be better but in terms of economies doing the stuff I want, things are fine.  


I not sure who actually said this, but the part I highlighted is actually a myth.  While it's true enough that a great many final causes of death can be traced back to poor personal habits, it's also true that everyone dies of something.  The reality is that, in Western nations, the vast majority of people die from complications related to living much longer than a natural lifespan permits.  People get fat because they eat too much, but many get fat because they are too old to practially exercise and have the means to enjoy too much food.  Some people get heart problems because they smoke, most get heart problems because they have lived long enough.  Simply put, if you live long enough, something is going to break; the fact that so many official causes for death are related to officially avoidable things does not change the fact that Americans live so much longer than we used to.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
MoonShadow
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1694



View Profile
November 30, 2013, 10:28:21 PM
 #138

Gary North has cast his vote...

http://www.garynorth.com/public/11828.cfm

M

This is a really sad article by Gary North.  He claims that Bitcoins can never become a real unit of exchange, but never really offers a reason why not.  The old austrians are proving to be very disappointing in the capacity to imagine change.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
Hawker
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 952



View Profile WWW
November 30, 2013, 10:29:51 PM
 #139


Its planned - and therefore in Austrian terms, its not money.  Please don't debate semantics on an article that you recommended.  


I know I'm being nitpicky here, but while I agree that (in an Austrian Economic sense) Bitcoins are not money, the reason for that is not because it is a planned/designed currency.  That would be because the currency unit itself has no alternative use outside of the context of being a currency. (the counter-argument about the use value of the settlement network notwithstanding)  For example, the British Pound was once a planned currency unit, but the actual coins were minted from real gold or silver, so they were also a money.  The definition of what "money" is might need adjustment to include a deliberately designed 'free market' currency system, but probably not.  Most people don't really know what "money" really is, and don't care about the details.

Quote
In Western countries, the biggest killers of the very poor are diseases caused by too much food and diseases caused by too much leisure.  You can argue that things might be better but in terms of economies doing the stuff I want, things are fine.  


I not sure who actually said this, but the part I highlighted is actually a myth.  While it's true enough that a great many final causes of death can be traced back to poor personal habits, it's also true that everyone dies of something.  The reality is that, in Western nations, the vast majority of people die from complications related to living much longer than a natural lifespan permits.  People get fat because they eat too much, but many get fat because they are too old to practially exercise and have the means to enjoy too much food.  Some people get heart problems because they smoke, most get heart problems because they have lived long enough.  Simply put, if you live long enough, something is going to break; the fact that so many official causes for death are related to officially avoidable things does not change the fact that Americans live so much longer than we used to.

So you make 1 post and you kill both my arguments  Angry No fair!

I was pointing to the logic in the linked article.  Personally I don't think Gary North made a fair representation of Austrian thinking but that's the article we were asked to read and discuss.

Medically you are 100% correct.  Fit people who eat well don't have any lifespan advantage over fat couch potatoes once you take tobacco out of the picture.  While alive, they seem to have better quality of life in terms of less diabetes and the like but we all die at much the same age. 

I still think the fact that everyone in society has access to endless food and endless leisure means that things are "fine."  Improvements possible but lets not go nuts and ignore just how good modern life really is.

           ▄▄███████▄▄
        ▄███▀▀
▄▄▄▄    ▀▄
     ▄▄█████████████▄▄  ▀▄
  ▄▀▀██▀           ▀▀██▄▄▀▄
▄▀  ██                 ▀██
  ██       ▀▀█▀▀         █
█▀        █ █ █        ▄█▀▄
▀▄         █ █ █       ▄█  █
 ██         █▄▄▄█      ▄█  ▄▀
  ██▄                ▄█▀  ▄▀
  ▀▄▀██▄▄          ▄█▀  ▄▀
   ▀▄ ▀▀███▄▄▄▄▄▄█████▀▀
     ▀▀▄▄▄▄▄▄▀▀▀▀▀▀▀
.UTRUST.▀████████▄
  ▀███████▄
    ▀██████▄
      ▀██████
       ▀█████
        ▀████▄
         █████
          ▀███
           ███
           ▀██
            ██
             █
             █
●  Download WHITEPAPER  ●
▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬ ▼ ▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬▬
facebook      twitter      slack
▀████████▄
  ▀███████▄
    ▀██████▄
      ▀██████
       ▀█████
        ▀████▄
         █████
          ▀███
           ███
           ▀██
            ██
             █
             █
MoonShadow
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1694



View Profile
November 30, 2013, 10:41:04 PM
 #140


I was pointing to the logic in the linked article.  Personally I don't think Gary North made a fair representation of Austrian thinking but that's the article we were asked to read and discuss.


Fair enough.  I don't think Gary North is a fair representation of Austrian thinking under any context.  While he makes for some great reading; I'd say he is very much a conservative, and is rather constrained in his thought processes to be called an Austrian economist, even if he claims the term.

Quote
Medically you are 100% correct.  Fit people who eat well don't have any lifespan advantage over fat couch potatoes once you take tobacco out of the picture.  While alive, they seem to have better quality of life in terms of less diabetes and the like but we all die at much the same age. 

I still think the fact that everyone in society has access to endless food and endless leisure means that things are "fine."  Improvements possible but lets not go nuts and ignore just how good modern life really is.

Well said.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 [7] 8 »  All
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!