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Author Topic: Warren Buffett on buying bitcoin: 'That is not investing'  (Read 355 times)
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April 29, 2018, 09:33:05 PM
 #21

The differences between investing and speculating aren't all that great. Buying a house you also factor in potential growth in the value and the fact that someone will buy it after you, so in that sense his example is pretty poor.

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April 29, 2018, 11:44:50 PM
 #22

When you buy cryptocurrency, Buffett continues, “You aren’t investing when you do that. You’re speculating. There’s nothing wrong with it. If you wanna gamble somebody else will come along and pay more money tomorrow, that’s one kind of game. That is not investing.”[/i]
So literally he is telling that investing in property is not investment and it is just speculating and gamble, the funny thing is that we are hearing this from a real estate broker .  Cheesy How does he describes property valuation, according to him with this comparison buying property is not investing as it is also a gamble that somebody else will come along and pay more money tomorrow. Tongue


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April 30, 2018, 12:11:48 AM
 #23

Ok to add a wrinkle to what Buffett says....his OWN company doesn't pay dividends!!!

So by his own definition buying stock of his own company is not an investment but rather pure speculation just like Bitcoin. So if everyone followed his own investment advice the stock of his company would go to zero.

No, investing for him means, putting money in a stock that is backed by a real growing company with real profits, with real employees and with real products and services. It does not matter if the stock pays or does not pay any dividends.

Also, I have no problem with his definition of investing and speculating as long as he stops saying that bitcoin is a bubble.

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April 30, 2018, 03:32:10 AM
 #24

this is mostly playing with words!
if you start thinking like that then when you buy a farm, house, business,... you are also speculating. that is not a satisfactory investment either because you are wishing that the next guy pays more for your house, farm, business if you wanted to sell

You're talking about flipping assets. That's just speculation. He's talking about buying assets that generate a return.

and when you buy Berkshire-Hathaway stocks which belongs to Warren himself you are wishing that Warren pumps it more so you are not investing there either.

Any asset can be speculated on, BTC or stocks or anything else. But the value of Berkshire Hathaway is definitely directly tied to its lucrative insurance businesses/balance sheet and the companies it holds. It's not valued purely on faith or anything.

ok i accept the first part but not the last one.
bitcoin price is not based on "faith" or anything like that either. like anything else bitcoin is providing us with something useful and valuable (a payment system) and as we use this system and see its ability we buy more of it and use it more, a lot of businesses shape around it, a lot of merchants accept it and increase their revenue and because of that price goes up.

so when saying "...if you buy something like bitcoin or some cryptocurrency, you don’t really have anything that has produced anything. You’re just hoping the next guy pays more..." makes bitcoin sound like a Ponzi scheme which i suspect was the main purpose of this article.

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April 30, 2018, 05:10:16 AM
 #25

Bitcoin's price is not based on "faith", it is based on the laws of supply and demand, and Warren Buffet is partly correct in saying that it is more as a speculation than an investment. But what if I say holding is an investment on the Core developers' ability to deliver the best and most secure cryptocurrency, decentralized, censorship resistant payment system. Would that be wrong?


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April 30, 2018, 05:18:40 AM
 #26

bitcoin price is not based on "faith" or anything like that either. like anything else bitcoin is providing us with something useful and valuable (a payment system) and as we use this system and see its ability we buy more of it and use it more, a lot of businesses shape around it, a lot of merchants accept it and increase their revenue and because of that price goes up.

I was going to say this. I don’t agree with Buffet’s examples. Using fiat to buy bitcoin is for me similar to use Zimbabwe dollars to buy US dollars. If you buy US dollars is because you believe they will have a brighter future than the Zimbabwe ones: they will be accepted in more places, even outside the US, thus the price will go up.

Comparing buying bitcoin with buying a farm looks like comparing apples and oranges to me.

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April 30, 2018, 09:25:14 AM
 #27

He said similar things regarding gold: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtN17EGeVVA

Obviously bitcoin, nor gold, does not produce anything as a dividend or yield like a farm or a stock. However, they are still both very good investments, and in fact, they are most likely much better store of values than the fiat currencies.

Bitcoin is a decentralised currency. How can you have a currency that produces yield for you?

Yes, in a sense that you're expecting the next guy to pay more for your bitcoin in the future. But there is evidence for that. Unlike fiat, bitcoin is decentralised, and disinflationary. As fiat currencies depreciate, bitcoin prices will appreciate as a result. So really what bitcoin is doing is just holding its value in real terms, in the long run. Short term volatility is another thing, if you invest in BTC in the short term, I agree, it should be called speculation.

But I think the definition of investing is anything which you put in that you expect more monetary rewards back. And BTC investing, whether short or long term, both fit that general definition that is accepted by most people.

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April 30, 2018, 10:04:33 AM
 #28

Bitcoin's price is not based on "faith", it is based on the laws of supply and demand, and Warren Buffet is partly correct in saying that it is more as a speculation than an investment. But what if I say holding is an investment on the Core developers' ability to deliver the best and most secure cryptocurrency, decentralized, censorship resistant payment system. Would that be wrong?


Quote
Bitcoin's price is not based on "faith", it is based on the laws of supply and demand,

it is still based on faith . Why ?  Because if people do have a faith on it , they will porbably continue to hold it and the price will remain stable or maybe increasing but it is also based on the demand and supply.

Quote
Warren Buffet is partly correct in saying that it is more as a speculation than an investment.

Bitcoin isnt more of a speculation nor an investment because its main usage and purpose is still a currency that is used for buying. People often speculate because the value of it is too volatile and unpredictable. Also there are few people who use it as investment because bitcoin can also become an asset aside from a currency.

Quote
. But what if I say holding is an investment on the Core developers' ability to deliver the best and most secure cryptocurrency, decentralized, censorship resistant payment system. Would that be wrong?

Yes holding can also be considered as investing because you manage to hold and wait for a better price in orderto sell and get a profit. That isnt also wrong.
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April 30, 2018, 10:39:46 AM
 #29

I respect Buffett as an outstanding investor of all time.
As for Bitcoin, he is right. This is real speculation.
But there is an investment in a blockchain-company through ICO. This is quite another matter.

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April 30, 2018, 10:41:23 AM
 #30

What he wanted to say is you don't have any tangible item/material/asset/contract when you buy bitcoin so you are not investing and that's why he ended up saying it doesn't produce anything. He still doesn't know things about bitcoin, he's old man and he can't understand what's the new trend in the world of investment. I know he's a genius but to tell that you are not investing when you buy bitcoin, he can be correct to others and he can't be to most that are bitcoin buyers/investors.
Summary: He still don't see bitcoin as an asset/investment. We do have our own definition of what investing is and he has it too.

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April 30, 2018, 10:53:38 AM
 #31

ok i accept the first part but not the last one.
bitcoin price is not based on "faith" or anything like that either.

Sure it is. Fundamentally, people use Bitcoin because other people use Bitcoin. If other people didn't use it, it would have no utility. Its utility can only exist in the context of the network effect. This is why it boils down to faith that other people will accept it, or speculative faith that the network will grow.

so when saying "...if you buy something like bitcoin or some cryptocurrency, you don’t really have anything that has produced anything. You’re just hoping the next guy pays more..." makes bitcoin sound like a Ponzi scheme which i suspect was the main purpose of this article.

Probably. I think people tend to take Buffett out of context to fit narratives. On its face, what he's saying makes sense: you don't see him trading forex either. He's not a speculator. His approach to investment is generating cash flow. There's nothing wrong with that.

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May 01, 2018, 05:53:02 AM
 #32

Bitcoin's price is not based on "faith", it is based on the laws of supply and demand, and Warren Buffet is partly correct in saying that it is more as a speculation than an investment. But what if I say holding is an investment on the Core developers' ability to deliver the best and most secure cryptocurrency, decentralized, censorship resistant payment system. Would that be wrong?


Quote
Bitcoin's price is not based on "faith", it is based on the laws of supply and demand,

it is still based on faith . Why ?  Because if people do have a faith on it , they will porbably continue to hold it and the price will remain stable or maybe increasing but it is also based on the demand and supply.

Are we in a religion? Hahaha.

Math, science, economics are what make Bitcoin rise and fall. You can have faith in a cryptocurrency but that does not assure you of anything.

Quote
Quote
Warren Buffet is partly correct in saying that it is more as a speculation than an investment.

Bitcoin isnt more of a speculation nor an investment because its main usage and purpose is still a currency that is used for buying. People often speculate because the value of it is too volatile and unpredictable. Also there are few people who use it as investment because bitcoin can also become an asset aside from a currency.

No, Bitcoin is held by us more as an investment or as a "speculative asset" because spending them today would be a lost opportunity to buy more with it in the future.

Quote
Quote
. But what if I say holding is an investment on the Core developers' ability to deliver the best and most secure cryptocurrency, decentralized, censorship resistant payment system. Would that be wrong?

Yes holding can also be considered as investing because you manage to hold and wait for a better price in orderto sell and get a profit. That isnt also wrong.

In other words, "speculating".


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May 01, 2018, 07:06:56 AM
 #33

I don't think this is a bad news just that he is trying to tell us the reality of our market. After go through this post I increased in knowledge about investment and speculations. He did not said putting your money in bitcoin is bad but you should not treat it as Investment.

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May 01, 2018, 07:35:51 AM
 #34

I don't say it wrong but we all have different perspective. Let's say for example in investing in jewelries such as gold, diamonds, silver, & etc. It doesn't produce anything but it is considered as investment. You need to expect someone to buy in order to keep its value, otherwise its value will explicitly go down tremendously/gradually. Again, it's a matter of perspective.

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May 01, 2018, 07:39:54 AM
 #35

He is not completely wrong, but we could say the same about gold for example.

His vision about investment is like "whatever generate cash flows", and bitcoin obviously does not have any cash flow, but it do have a worth based on asks and bids. So it is gold and silver.

Yes, what he said does makes sense, bitcoin is a speculative asset, we can't deny it, however, I don't think that speculative asset like bitcoin can have a staying power of almost a decade now. If people doesn't see anything from any asset, it will simply die down. But bitcoin is challenging how we look at an asset and that is what Warren Buffett doesn't understand because he came from a old traditional way of investing.

Did he say that to Soros though? because there are news circulating around that Soros finally decided to invest on crypto, why did he change his mind? I don't have any idea but Warren seems to stick with his notion that bitcoin will suddenly die down but so far we are still alive and breathing.


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May 01, 2018, 08:45:28 AM
 #36

Warren buffet is actually have an other side on mind and he doesn't mind cryptocurrency still on this days he is not a fan of technology? Oh well i doubt, knowing that he invested money in bitcoins. I don't really care what words comes from him because what i see and my knowledge on this will be the next future of my life and not by his words.


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May 01, 2018, 12:00:46 PM
 #37

it is true what he said, if not many people buy then the price will not rise, it goes into the volality, but what if it turns out that many people are buying ?? whether to lose? this is actually almost the same as gambling.

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May 01, 2018, 02:15:16 PM
 #38

Did he say that to Soros though? because there are news circulating around that Soros finally decided to invest on crypto, why did he change his mind?
Soros has only shown his interest, but that doesn't mean he is actually going to invest in crypto. Also, he didn't point out how exactly he is planning to invest in crypto. It could very well be that he is only going to invest in financial tools tied to crypto, which a completely different division. Don't forget that most of the similar investors aren't interested in crypto itself (and thus very likely won't bother to buy crypto directly), but just the exposure it offers, and that exposure is something they can obtain through these financial tools as well.

I don't have any idea but Warren seems to stick with his notion that bitcoin will suddenly die down but so far we are still alive and breathing.
The far majority of the traditional farts were like that in the very beginning, but it's slowly turning with how even a lot of the early day skeptics and naysayers are now seeing the benefit of today's crypto currencies, and especially Bitcoin. It was the same with how the average joes were thinking about Bitcoin. They ignored Bitcoin when it was just $200, then ignored it at $500, then $1000, then $5000, etc. In other words, their believe of Bitcoin being something that will instantly vanish or become worthless, loses significance overtime with how this ecosystem and the market develop themselves.

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May 01, 2018, 05:16:42 PM
 #39

Warren buffet is actually have an other side on mind and he doesn't mind cryptocurrency still on this days he is not a fan of technology? Oh well i doubt, knowing that he invested money in bitcoins. I don't really care what words comes from him because what i see and my knowledge on this will be the next future of my life and not by his words.

With all due respect to him, he's an authority on traditional investments.He's got a point that holding BTCBTCBTC is mostly speculating, because it isn't backed by a real business. So I guess his point is that we should invest in crypto-companies and not so much simply holding BTCBTCBTC.


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May 02, 2018, 02:27:32 AM
 #40

“If you buy something like a farm, an apartment house, or an interest in a business… You can do that on a private basis… And it’s a perfectly satisfactory investment. You look at the investment itself to deliver the return to you. Now, if you buy something like bitcoin or some cryptocurrency, you don’t really have anything that has produced anything. You’re just hoping the next guy pays more.”

When you buy cryptocurrency, Buffett continues, “You aren’t investing when you do that. You’re speculating. There’s nothing wrong with it. If you wanna gamble somebody else will come along and pay more money tomorrow, that’s one kind of game. That is not investing.”[/i]

Read in full https://finance.yahoo.com/news/warren-buffett-buying-bitcoin-not-investing-110702015.html?guccounter=1
While obviously he has more experience than most users in the forum combined at the same time he is a very traditional investor, he is not a risk taker and that has worked for him, but technically every stock that you buy you do it with the hope that is going to go up and someone else is going to pay more for it, if what he says is true about bitcoin then that is true about all the stock market.
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