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Author Topic: $5.00 bounty to the first person who can convince me not to buy ppc (reopened)  (Read 2464 times)
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November 23, 2013, 08:46:11 AM
 #21

Don't Buy, because every altcoin's price is linked to BTC somehow.
If BTC wil go UP they will go up, If BTC will go down they will go down, then why not Just invest in bitcoins.

If you are buying them with USD it's ok but still it's not better.

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November 23, 2013, 09:13:36 AM
 #22

At this moment the only thing against PPC is the the lack of real world services, however this seems to changing, so I can't convince you Sad.
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November 23, 2013, 09:22:44 AM
 #23

Because for me is more or less the same as investing in goldcoin... The first days tha ammount of coins mined was huge compared to the current rates, if I remember well, in the beginings each block had around 5k coins.
It's true that Pos was innovative, but there are coins better distributed with more advantages withouth handling new projects like netcoin or nxt wich will have PoS and many other innovations.
I had 6k wich I mined with a 5970 in two days and I sold when the coins was attacked or sometbing like that at ridiculous price, so maybe my hate to this coin is consequence of this  Wink
I'm sure that if I currently have that 6k my opinion would be different and the same as all holders  Smiley

unfortunately i convinced myself, but that was a good effort! whats your bitcoin address? ill send you a tip.

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November 23, 2013, 09:55:46 AM
 #24

How about this:

Sunny King invented PoS, and in order to test this new concept he created PPC. In other words, PPC is not designed to be a currency. It is designed to be a proof-of-concept implementation of a PoW+PoS cryptocurrency.
This, in turn, is the reason why PPC is not really being used as a currency. It is merely an object of speculation. https://github.com/ppcoin/ppcoin/wiki/List-of-services-on-market lists a meager total of 7 (in words: seven) "Shops, Retail Products and Services", which is absolutely ridiculous in relation the PPC's market cap.

So, if you want to speculate in cryptocoins, buying PPC is as good a choice as any other altcoin. If you want to invest, then leave your fingers off PPC.

Disclaimer: I do hold a few PPC myseld. Merely playing devil's advocate here... :-)


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November 23, 2013, 11:21:37 AM
 #25

There is no hard limit, so it is subject to endless amounts of inflation

Yet the difficulty level for PoW and 1% inflation rate for PoS will effectively limit how many we will see in our lifetime to a totally reasonable amount.
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November 23, 2013, 12:28:11 PM
 #26

one of these threads!

The title of this thread should be. "Marketing my bag of PPC with a bogus demand"

The decision to buy anything is yours in a free market. If you are letting others convince you to buy then you deserve to lose any money you may invest.

The biggest reason not to buy has already been stated.. there are absolutely no merchants for it. Especially not enough to warrant its market cap. On top of that its designed solely for early adopters. In this community that seems to be the way to get people interested though. The fairest coins get forgotten with the exception of BTC but even BTC is highly early adopter rewarding.

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November 23, 2013, 12:47:44 PM
 #27

one of these threads!

The title of this thread should be. "Marketing my bag of PPC with a bogus demand"

The decision to buy anything is yours in a free market. If you are letting others convince you to buy then you deserve to lose any money you may invest.

The biggest reason not to buy has already been stated.. there are absolutely no merchants for it. Especially not enough to warrant its market cap. On top of that its designed solely for early adopters. In this community that seems to be the way to get people interested though. The fairest coins get forgotten with the exception of BTC but even BTC is highly early adopter rewarding.

I  have to say your arguments aren't really all that relevant. He isn't buying them for use right now, he's deciding on a crypto currency that might be used in the future.. or maybe not even used at all but that he could make money off of. Absolutely no one who isn't delved into cryptocurrencies already knows of Litecoin and it has a 250 million dollar cap, and it's probably made some millionaires.
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November 23, 2013, 12:55:45 PM
 #28

You should Buy PPC.

End of argument.

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cabin
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November 23, 2013, 02:09:20 PM
 #29

Con: There is currently no financial incentive for miners to include transactions in a block.

However, I still think it is the most innovative alt around. It also has the lowest inflation rate of all the major alts (and bitcoin) and will have for many years to come.

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sangaman
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November 23, 2013, 02:25:56 PM
 #30

This is a flawed question.

I cannot convince you NOT to buy PPC, because the truth is you SHOULD buy PPC.

The fundamentals are there; market cap, ranking, low price.

Buy, you won't be sorry.

Can you explain why the protocol is robust enough to warrant investment? Even tho I'm a PPC owner, I can't really PROVE that it's robust, I just know that with a decent amount of research and time I haven't proved that it's NOT robust.

Can PPC survive off checkpointing? What about the fact that even honest miners have incentive to POS mine an attack chain since POS mining consumes very few resources? How difficult is it to string together multiple POS blocks in a row even with nowhere near 51% of the coins in existence?

I'm playing devil's advocate here, so please humor me.

There is no hard limit, so it is subject to endless amounts of inflation

This one I can debunk myself. The creation of new coins through POW will taper off over time (already far fewer coins are being produced through POW now than a few months ago) until the money supply growth rate due to POW is negligible. As for the money supply growth of up to 1% due to POS mining, this does not result in any loss of purchasing power to the holders of peercoins. Peercoins held in a wallet that is used for POS mining even occasionally won't represent a smaller percentage of the PPC money supply over time (as USD in a bank account represent a smaller percentage of the USD money supply), rather they'll actually represent a slightly larger percentage over time. Not all coins will be used for POS mining so the true money supply growth rate due to POS mining will always be <1%.

As for prices, a 1% rate of growth of money supply is hardly significant or unusual. Bitcoin's money supply will be growing at a rate of >1% for many more years. And the rate of growth of the economy at large will likely be over 1% in the long run so you probably still won't be seeing prices in PPC going up long term, as you'd generally expect with inflation.
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November 23, 2013, 02:35:02 PM
 #31

At this point BTC has such a large lead in the network effect that the only reason to buy any alt coin is if you think it will outperform Bitcoin. So will PPC outperform BTC? As the main difference is PoS v PoW the question becomes "will Bitcoin's PoW model ever cause risk to its overall adoption?"

Why the answer might be yes: organized 51% attack from a large pool, NSA or other body corrupting ASIC hardware, or a technological advance that obsoletes ASICs but is held by a small party.

I agree the answer is yes, your answer is one possible reason why but there are also others I see with varying degrees of importance. Overall efficiency and cost effectiveness, yes a POW blockchain is vastly more cost effective than the traditional banking/payment processing system but it still requires a huge amount of computing resources and electricity as compared to a POS blockchain. Providing an incentive for more people to run full nodes and participate in the mining process, anyone with coins can mine without any sort of special hardware and this makes it more decentralized. PPC attackers must attack themselves, you need to get your hands on PPC to launch an attack and if your attack is successful then it causes your PPC to tank in value, thereby devaluing your own assets, which is a good rational disincentive to attack the chain.

Even if BTC proved thoroughly resistant to a 51% attack in the future, I would still see legitimate reasons to use PPC instead.

I'm talking myself into buying more PPC at this point but I'm still not convinced that it could really survive long-term.
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November 23, 2013, 03:36:20 PM
 #32

It will make me richer.

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November 23, 2013, 03:41:33 PM
 #33

one of these threads!

The title of this thread should be. "Marketing my bag of PPC with a bogus demand"

The decision to buy anything is yours in a free market. If you are letting others convince you to buy then you deserve to lose any money you may invest.

The biggest reason not to buy has already been stated.. there are absolutely no merchants for it. Especially not enough to warrant its market cap. On top of that its designed solely for early adopters. In this community that seems to be the way to get people interested though. The fairest coins get forgotten with the exception of BTC but even BTC is highly early adopter rewarding.

I  have to say your arguments aren't really all that relevant. He isn't buying them for use right now, he's deciding on a crypto currency that might be used in the future.. or maybe not even used at all but that he could make money off of. Absolutely no one who isn't delved into cryptocurrencies already knows of Litecoin and it has a 250 million dollar cap, and it's probably made some millionaires.

He isnt deciding anything because he has already decided. This is a shill post to make his decision to buy PPC seem like a good one because no one can convince him not too.

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November 23, 2013, 03:52:46 PM
 #34

one of these threads!

The title of this thread should be. "Marketing my bag of PPC with a bogus demand"

The decision to buy anything is yours in a free market. If you are letting others convince you to buy then you deserve to lose any money you may invest.

The biggest reason not to buy has already been stated.. there are absolutely no merchants for it. Especially not enough to warrant its market cap. On top of that its designed solely for early adopters. In this community that seems to be the way to get people interested though. The fairest coins get forgotten with the exception of BTC but even BTC is highly early adopter rewarding.

you are wrong. there is truthfully nothing up my sleeve. i do not own a single ppc.

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited?
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November 23, 2013, 04:00:30 PM
 #35

Con: There is currently no financial incentive for miners to include transactions in a block.

However, I still think it is the most innovative alt around. It also has the lowest inflation rate of all the major alts (and bitcoin) and will have for many years to come.

is there financial incentive for proof of stake block creators?

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited?
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November 23, 2013, 04:06:03 PM
 #36

one of these threads!

The title of this thread should be. "Marketing my bag of PPC with a bogus demand"

The decision to buy anything is yours in a free market. If you are letting others convince you to buy then you deserve to lose any money you may invest.

The biggest reason not to buy has already been stated.. there are absolutely no merchants for it. Especially not enough to warrant its market cap. On top of that its designed solely for early adopters. In this community that seems to be the way to get people interested though. The fairest coins get forgotten with the exception of BTC but even BTC is highly early adopter rewarding.

you are wrong. there is truthfully nothing up my sleeve. i do not own a single ppc.


Of course someone with an agenda would say this. Roll Eyes

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November 23, 2013, 04:17:00 PM
 #37

is there financial incentive for proof of stake block creators?

I think there is, POS miners have an incentive to preserve the value of their stake. Attacking the chain by not including transactions damages the value of their stake. I don't think there's any energy or computing power cost associated with including transactions in a block, and if there is it's extremely minimal.

you are wrong. there is truthfully nothing up my sleeve. i do not own a single ppc.


Of course someone with an agenda would say this. Roll Eyes

He isnt deciding anything because he has already decided. This is a shill post to make his decision to buy PPC seem like a good one because no one can convince him not too.

Regardless of whether or not there is something up his sleeve, this discussion is relevant. If people can prove why PPC is flawed or doom to failure long term, then they're doing OP and other potential investors a favor by discouraging them from investing in a cryptocurrency that will ultimately prove worthless. If PPC actually can live up to its expectations, then there's real value to be had in a successful POS implementation and both investors and the cryptocurrency economy could benefit from it.
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November 23, 2013, 04:40:06 PM
 #38

is there financial incentive for proof of stake block creators?

I think there is, POS miners have an incentive to preserve the value of their stake. Attacking the chain by not including transactions damages the value of their stake. I don't think there's any energy or computing power cost associated with including transactions in a block, and if there is it's extremely minimal.

Why would including fewer transactions decrease the value of their stake?

Rep Thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=381041
If one can not confer upon another a right which he does not himself first possess, by what means does the state derive the right to engage in behaviors from which the public is prohibited?
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November 23, 2013, 04:45:58 PM
 #39

Regardless of whether or not there is something up his sleeve, this discussion is relevant. If people can prove why PPC is flawed or doom to failure long term, then they're doing OP and other potential investors a favor by discouraging them from investing in a cryptocurrency that will ultimately prove worthless. If PPC actually can live up to its expectations, then there's real value to be had in a successful POS implementation and both investors and the cryptocurrency economy could benefit from it.

I don't want to go into a lot of details, but there are a lot of weird things about PPC that I haven't liked.

- The per-block difficulty adjustment algorithm encourages DDoSing of pools, because doing so results immediately in a lower difficulty and higher rewards
- There was a stake burn-in vulnerability a while ago that Jutarul published, and SK subsequently "fixed", but he's always refused to go into great detail about how the fix works and what vulnerabilities might still be present that allow you to spam/double spend with PoS blocks
- SK's code in general is nebulous
- Fees are destroyed, negating incentive to include transactions in blocks.  Even in Bitcoin, you have people submitting empty blocks because their chance of being orphaned is less.  SK's response is the same as when you complain about any feature in his chain that might break it: "I don't think it's a problem, but if it is a problem, I'll fix it once other people break it."
- Even Gavin called PeerCoin's design "half-baked"
Quote
Quote
Quote from: Sunny King on February 19, 2013, 03:52:16 AM

If you ask Gavin about his position on this matter he likely would have to tell you the same thing.


... or not.  There's a difference between "unfixed vulnerabilities" and "half-baked design."

I think big decisions that affect the fundamentals of the design should be discussed in the open (see the current Bitcoin debate over raising the block size limit).
- Not really a negative, but the current reward algorithm will result in the supply output being cut 16 fold because of the 1000 fold increase in speed and efficiency of newer ASICs; it's expected that in the beginning of next year PPC reward per PoW block will be about ~15 coins.  This is why the value of the currency is going up, but it's terrible for volatility.
- Stake block generation is erratic and stake blocks all have trust scores that are different and based on the cumulative coin age; no one knows exactly when a transaction is validated by PoS blocks or if this system will be easy to game for a double spend if you have a large supply of coins.  PoW blocks have almost zero trust if I'm recalling right, so the hands of the network is in the PoS miners (except in the exchanges that simply ignore PoS blocks for deposit and use PoW confirmations) but no one ones how secure this method will be against double spend.

You can rest assured that if there is a theoretical problem, SK will dismiss it, and then if it actually is a problem and someone exploits it, SK will release a patch out of nowhere to keep the chain going.  But what happens if he suddenly disappears?  I'm heavily invested in PPC because I know with the crazyass reward algorithm the price will probably explode in the next 6 months, but I don't feel like I have long term confidence in the chain.

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November 23, 2013, 05:04:46 PM
 #40

Why would including fewer transactions decrease the value of their stake?

My reasoning is that if potential users see PPC as often having delayed confirmation times because POS miners often don't include transactions in their blocks, they would be less willing to accept and use PPC. I expect this would decrease the value of PPC, which would then decrease the value of the coins held by the POS miners.

The overarching principle is that any successful attack on peercoin will decrease the value of the coins. Therefore there's an incentive even for selfish miners to include transactions in blocks (as ignoring transactions is a form of an attack) even though they don't get to keep any of the fees. There's somewhat of a similar situation with bitcoin, even if you have enough mining power to be able to execute double-spends or maybe even a 51% attack, there's a disincentive to do that because it hurts the value of your mining hardware and the value of your future block rewards. Someone who holds a ton of mining power stands to earn a ton of money through honest mining, attacking bitcoin and causing the value of bitcoins to tank hurts his own bottom line.

While it certainly is nice to have defense from rational, self-interested actors, not everyone is rational and there may be some people who want to attack cryptocurrencies even if hurts their bottom line. PPC is no exception. So I'd feel more comfortable knowing that it's not easy to pull off any sort of significant attack on PPC regardless of where the incentives lie.
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