Bitcoin isn't worth it for consumers. And that will stop adoption.

[btcxyzzz]

It's been bothering me lately, thinking about this. Consumers have absolutely no motivation to use Bitcoin. And because of that, I don't understand how it will ever go global.

You're forgetting one key property: that is anonymity. Black-market consumers are absolutely motivated for crypto use, and guess what... that's enough for initial healthy rise. Remember, SR was the first one, then came speculators. And it's only just begun. Primary markets are black, until it's big enough to be stable, and when it becomes stable - regular consumers will kick in massively. I give 1 year until we see relatively stable Bitcoin.

[AnonyMint]

Anonymity? Wait, Bitcoin doesn't have that.

Faster transactions? Wait, Bitcoin doesn't have that.

Protection against fraudulent merchants? Wait, Bitcoin doesn't have that.

More merchants because easier to signup? Wait, Bitcoin doesn't have that.

Actually the chargebacks could be accomplished decentralized with Bitcoin's M of N signers capability.

[botolo86]

vs cash/cards in person - too slow, I can pass someone banknotes in a shop and we are done in 5 seconds, I cannot wait 10mins to 2 hours for the BTC to pass

This is something that bothers me. How will it work when bitcoins are accepted everywhere? Will I go to Starbucks, pay and then wait 10 minutes before getting my coffee???

[jbreher]

Much of this can likely be worked out over the coming decade.  The internet was pretty much useless too when it started.  It takes time to build useful infrastructure.

Lets hope Gavin has theses issues at the top of his "To Do" list, because the longer they fester, the greater chance the media picks up on them, and this will be the focus of Bitcoin.

Someone needs to fix both.  Quick.

Robert Metcalfe didn't give us google, linked-in and facebook. Neither did Tim Berners-Lee. To suppose that Gavin needs to do it all is folly.

[lindatess]

vs cash/cards in person - too slow, I can pass someone banknotes in a shop and we are done in 5 seconds, I cannot wait 10mins to 2 hours for the BTC to pass

This is something that bothers me. How will it work when bitcoins are accepted everywhere? Will I go to Starbucks, pay and then wait 10 minutes before getting my coffee???

Exactly, I'd rather use MasterCard PayPass or Visa payWave.

If we have to install bitcoin acceptance machines at Starbucks, that's going to add to costs. People forget that and point to the fact that it is cheaper theoretically, but not practically. Add wifi, a terminal and the need to secure the machine and lost business due to people waiting in line for confirmations before they are allowed to leave. You can argue to use off-chain transactions, but why not use cards that are off-chain too? It defeats the purpose of bitcoin, it isn't even using bitcoin to be technically correct. You aren't transferring anything, you are just changing numbers on the screen like the card companies do when you buy something.

Wealth store? Bleh, that's fake. Remember you can only consume more in the future when there is real economic growth. If people start to create less things, you should actually consume now rather than put your money into assets. If no one can buy those assets in the future, your wealth is eroded anyway. The only reason why gold is going up is because people can afford it. If they can't, then it can't go up.

The best solution is to invest in real economic growth. That's why you have the shale industry evolving even though it's short lived. It's so there is more stuff to consume. The fact is we are running out of things to consume, that will destroy wealth. Not the fact that your money or bitcoins are worth less. That's just the symptom. If we all created more things to trade with, we wouldn't be worried about hedging wealth.

You can't store wealth unless you believe that there will be a similar amount of production per capita in the future. Even then it's not really hedged! Climate Change and Famine. That's going to screw us all up.

Thus the only true users of bitcoin are the consumers. People that need to buy drugs without entrapment and more. People that can afford to use it.

[btcxyzzz]

Anonymity? Wait, Bitcoin doesn't have that.

How many f. times I have to mention Tor around? F. connect to it and all your anonimity problems are gone. Literally.

Faster transactions? Wait, Bitcoin doesn't have that.

Not essentially the problem with this type of transactions...

Protection against fraudulent merchants? Wait, Bitcoin doesn't have that.

Good reputable escrow is enough.

More merchants because easier to signup? Wait, Bitcoin doesn't have that.

Bitpay?

[Lewis2]

In the olden days -say 40 years ago- world travelers and explorers would buy a Rolex or another gold watch, as it translates into money everywhere. As internet reaches a worldwide spread, accessing bitcoin will be possible everywhere. This goes ofcourse not only for kidnapped adventurers, but the pro's to Bitcoin definitely exceed the lack of transfer fee's for shopkeepers.

[disclaimer201]

Anonymity? Wait, Bitcoin doesn't have that.

How many f. times I have to mention Tor around? F. connect to it and all your anonimity problems are gone. Literally.

Faster transactions? Wait, Bitcoin doesn't have that.

Not essentially the problem with this type of transactions...

Protection against fraudulent merchants? Wait, Bitcoin doesn't have that.

Good reputable escrow is enough.

More merchants because easier to signup? Wait, Bitcoin doesn't have that.

Bitpay?

TOR isn't safe to use imo. Chances are you will be on every spy agencies radar just because of it. They are likely sitting at/running many exit nodes themselves. Silk Road owner believed to be anonymous as well. Look where it got him.

Bitcoin is not going to be used by consumers at all. In fact, if you did so you must be stupid. Not all that long ago I paid 2000 Dollars for a few riser cables worth 20 bucks. Just glad that was the only thing I ever purchased. I will never ever use bitcoin again to buy anything but fiat. You may not like this idea, but you must be insane otherwise. The only incentive for people to use bitcoin other than to try to buy drugs or guns would be to get products/goods/service 100% tax free. This is not going to happen because of regulation.

If, and this is a big if, any crypto currency will be used for anything besides speculation or money laundering/tax evasion/hedge against inflation, it will be a much less valuable super fast currency. I have my doubts it would be stable enough price wise though.

[btcxyzzz]

Exit node does not know where the source node is. It's the chain of proxies. SR has fallen not because they outsmarted Tor, but because DPR had some pretty stupid social-related errors in online behaviour.

At the beginning, no one knew what was going to happen exactly. Who could predict 1k$/btc in 2013. I regret buying 3 ASIC machines now because if I kept all those coins, I would have much more money now, but I'm not regret it too much because that's sort of illogical backward thinking. Bitcoin must get fairly stable over time, so even regular consumers are expected to kick in, not just junkies. All of that is ofc just my opinion...

[disclaimer201]

Exit node does not know where the source node is. It's the chain of proxies. SR has fallen not because they outsmarted Tor, but because DPR had some pretty stupid social-related errors in online behaviour.

At the beginning, no one knew what was going to happen exactly. Who could predict 1k$/btc in 2013. I regret buying 3 ASIC machines now because if I kept all those coins, I would have much more money now, but I'm not regret it too much because that's sort of illogical backward thinking. Bitcoin must get fairly stable over time, so even regular consumers are expected to kick in, not just junkies. All of that is ofc just my opinion...

Well, at least you would know the contents of everything that flows through those exitnodes. And I bet they do.

[PenAndPaper]

Anonymity? Wait, Bitcoin doesn't have that.

How many f. times I have to mention Tor around? F. connect to it and all your anonimity problems are gone. Literally.

Well no matter how many time you have to mention Tor there isn't any anonymity in bitcoin. Only pseudonymity.
Every transaction is logged in a public ledger which is the blockchain. Ip addresses have nothing to do with it.

[daneel2]

not all transactions of a currency involve every-day consumer purchases. IE sending money to a relative in another country, or paying for a very expensive item.

[btcxyzzz]

Well, at least you would know the contents of everything that flows through those exitnodes. And I bet they do.

Still that has nothing to do with uncovering identities.

Ip addresses have nothing to do with it.

Plain wrong. IP address identifies a place on Earth, even not identity.

[halfawake]

vs cash/cards in person - too slow, I can pass someone banknotes in a shop and we are done in 5 seconds, I cannot wait 10mins to 2 hours for the BTC to pass

This is something that bothers me. How will it work when bitcoins are accepted everywhere? Will I go to Starbucks, pay and then wait 10 minutes before getting my coffee???

Exactly, I'd rather use MasterCard PayPass or Visa payWave.

If we have to install bitcoin acceptance machines at Starbucks, that's going to add to costs. People forget that and point to the fact that it is cheaper theoretically, but not practically. Add wifi, a terminal and the need to secure the machine and lost business due to people waiting in line for confirmations before they are allowed to leave. You can argue to use off-chain transactions, but why not use cards that are off-chain too? It defeats the purpose of bitcoin, it isn't even using bitcoin to be technically correct. You aren't transferring anything, you are just changing numbers on the screen like the card companies do when you buy something.

Actually Starbucks is probably a good counterpoint to what you're saying here, if you're okay with not accepting 100% of the customers.  One, a lot of the customers would be accepted pretty easily by just installing an app on their smartphones.  I know not everyone has smartphones, that's why I made the cavet above.  Two, I don't know about all Starbucks, but my local Starbucks has free wifi already.  That means that anyone with a laptop could also pay with bitcoin, regardless of whether or not they have a smartphone.  And having been at Starbucks a lot lately, I can say that customers having a laptop or a smartphone would probably account for 90% of Starbucks' typical customers. 

Sure, it's not as simple as whipping out a credit card to pay, but if they're okay with covering most of their existing customers, rather than all of them, Starbucks wouldn't need any bitcoin acceptance machines.  It doesn't fix the having to wait 10 minutes problem, though.  I suspect if bitcoin goes mainstream enough that retail companies are implementing it, some would make people wait the 10 minutes, and most would probably just accept the (relatively small) risk of a double spend.

[Ecurb123]

it could be that bitcoin won't be used wide spread for small purchases, but that doesn't mean it can't be a success in other areas. 

[disclaimer201]

Well, at least you would know the contents of everything that flows through those exitnodes. And I bet they do.

Still that has nothing to do with uncovering identities.

Ip addresses have nothing to do with it.

Plain wrong. IP address identifies a place on Earth, even not identity.

Nevertheless, it may tell them a lot of stuff on what it is you are doing, and maybe where you doing it. So, you'd have to be extremely cautious when using Tor. Not anything a wide audience will ever be able to safely use.

IPs are not about identity? My provider knows my IP address and will hand over name and address in the blink of an eye if asked by a court. It happens all the time with copyright infringements these days.

[AnonyMint]

Consumers and merchants might end up hating it.

[BittBurger]

Consumers and merchants might end up hating it.

"Those are problems for those businesses to solve, not problems with bitcoin itself. These difficulties are to be expected, but they do not make me any less confident in the ultimate success of bitcoin. "

[Impaler]

Actually the chargebacks could be accomplished decentralized with Bitcoin's M of N signers capability.

What I find most pathetic about BTC is that making M of N transactions usable from the client and building a professional reliable group of escrow providers has been NOWHERE on anyone's radar, and they are so so needed. 

IF real commerce was something that people cared about then we would see developers put effort their.  But the most developed part of the BTC ecosystem are the Exchanges and the Speculation, that's all you really need to know to judge BTC.

[HappyLizard]

No one in their right mind is going to use BTC as a currency as long as they expect the value to keep rising. Why spend something now that might be worth 100x as much next year... 
You know your cash will be worth less this time next year, thats the incentive to spend it.