An Electronic Currency That Could Save The Economy - And It's Not Bitcoin

[Melbustus]

The Chicago Fed's recent report (pdf) on bitcoin did allude to building in some of the bitcoin's crypto transaction security properties into the dollar bank-payment network eventually. Obviously that would be more of the same monetary dynamics (fiat), but with better transaction security. That's fine...

The ultimate allure of bitcoin remains two-fold:
1) A credibly limited-supply, perfect-information, currency/monetary-system controlled/manipulated by no one.
2) A new protocol for value on the internet, on top of which many new financial services can be built.

The potential future existence of FedCoin does not detract from either of the above in any way.

[justusranvier]

This economy does not deserve to be saved.

It's a centrally-planned murder machine designed to enrich Manhattan and DC while bribing the Baby Boomers with the auctioned-off livelihoods of their grandchildren.

[anti-scam]

Demurrage vs. deflation...

That's sort of like a bear wrestling a midget. Do they want to kill the dollar faster?

[btcxyzzz]

I'm affraid that elite, seeing they are loosing battle, don't make just a little bit more fair digital currency compared to nowadays fiat, but still centralized, and use all of their media and political power to promote it as a new-world currency.

[bluemeanie1]

Now this guy is talking scary shit but even more scary, will governments think it's maybe a good idea.

"There's An Electronic Currency That Could Save The Economy — And It's Not Bitcoin"

"University of Michigan economist Miles Kimball has developed a theoretical solution  to this problem in the form of an electronic currency that would allow the Fed to bring nominal rates below zero to combat recessions. He's been presenting his plan to different economists and central bankers around the world."

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/theres-electronic-currency-could-save-121228399.html

Seems this is yet another excuse for centralization.  It's also a kind of digital currency implementation of Keynesian Economics.  It is similar to Demurrage, and thus similar to Freicoin.  Personally I don't think that demurrage is a useful concept.  The moment Freicion is released, someone will build an exchange and people will cash out of Freicoins instantly(why would you want to hold them if your balance depletes?).  Thus the only people left holding Freicoins are the issuers.

Demurrage has been tried many many times, but the Legend of Demurrage persists...  the idea is over 100 years old.

[PenAndPaper]

Everyone please stop freaking out and just read the article. The scheme that this guy proposes has exactly 0 similarities with freicoin.

As i said before the key point is the exchange rate between dollars and e-dollars

[skull88]

Ow they're going to create another DOA crap altcoin, well I guess they can post it in the alt forum when they release it, lol. 

[crumbs]

Now this guy is talking scary shit but even more scary, will governments think it's maybe a good idea.

"There's An Electronic Currency That Could Save The Economy — And It's Not Bitcoin"

"University of Michigan economist Miles Kimball has developed a theoretical solution  to this problem in the form of an electronic currency that would allow the Fed to bring nominal rates below zero to combat recessions. He's been presenting his plan to different economists and central bankers around the world."

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/theres-electronic-currency-could-save-121228399.html

The article never gets into what makes demurrage money better than plain old inflation (as in printing moar dollars, what the folks on this forum hate so much).  There are differences (like who gets the crisp new bills), but the article doesn't even touch on that.

[Impaler]

It is a common misconception that demurrage is identical to inflation in it's effects on the economy.

Inflation always has a distinct negative effect caused by the slow destruction of the unit of account value of money.  Anyone with a basic economic knowledge knows that prices are the means by which a Free market so efficiently allocates scares resources, everyone is continually communicating their desires for goods and the availability of goods with prices when they make a purchase or set a price on goods for sale.  Inflation is always eroding the quality of that information, it is like packet-loss on your internet connection.  Low levels of inflation do not cause a terrible collapse mind you but they slowly invalidate all our old prices.

Note that Deflation is EQUALLY destructive to price information, prices only care about the absolute magnitude of change not the sign.  BTC hyper deflation is so bad that no one attempts to use BTC as a unit of account AT ALL, goods are prices in dollars and the spot exchange rate is used to determine every purchase, exactly as would be done in a nation with Hyper Inflationary currency that has some black market dollars in it that everyone uses as the unit of account.

The reason we have inflation at all is to keep money circulating, demurrage accomplishes the circulation without the destruction of price information.  Thus we can conclude it is a superior implementation.

[tutkarz]

It is a common misconception that demurrage is identical to inflation in it's effects on the economy.

Inflation always has a distinct negative effect caused by the slow destruction of the unit of account value of money.  Anyone with a basic economic knowledge knows that prices are the means by which a Free market so efficiently allocates scares resources, everyone is continually communicating their desires for goods and the availability of goods with prices when they make a purchase or set a price on goods for sale.  Inflation is always eroding the quality of that information, it is like packet-loss on your internet connection.  Low levels of inflation do not cause a terrible collapse mind you but they slowly invalidate all our old prices.

Note that Deflation is EQUALLY destructive to price information, prices only care about the absolute magnitude of change not the sign.  BTC hyper deflation is so bad that no one attempts to use BTC as a unit of account AT ALL, goods are prices in dollars and the spot exchange rate is used to determine every purchase, exactly as would be done in a nation with Hyper Inflationary currency that has some black market dollars in it that everyone uses as the unit of account.

The reason we have inflation at all is to keep money circulating, demurrage accomplishes the circulation without the destruction of price information.  Thus we can conclude it is a superior implementation.

all good except we have big inflation still in bitcoin. Adoption phase make price go up and down wildly.

[crumbs]

It is a common misconception that demurrage is identical to inflation in it's effects on the economy.

Inflation always has a distinct negative effect caused by the slow destruction of the unit of account value of money.  Anyone with a basic economic knowledge knows that prices are the means by which a Free market so efficiently allocates scares resources, everyone is continually communicating their desires for goods and the availability of goods with prices when they make a purchase or set a price on goods for sale.  Inflation is always eroding the quality of that information, it is like packet-loss on your internet connection.  Low levels of inflation do not cause a terrible collapse mind you but they slowly invalidate all our old prices.

Note that Deflation is EQUALLY destructive to price information, prices only care about the absolute magnitude of change not the sign.  BTC hyper deflation is so bad that no one attempts to use BTC as a unit of account AT ALL, goods are prices in dollars and the spot exchange rate is used to determine every purchase, exactly as would be done in a nation with Hyper Inflationary currency that has some black market dollars in it that everyone uses as the unit of account.

The reason we have inflation at all is to keep money circulating, demurrage accomplishes the circulation without the destruction of price information.  Thus we can conclude it is a superior implementation.

I'm still not seeing a difference, possibly because we haven't agreed on the terminology.

a) Here's my definition of "inflation" (inflationary money) in this context:  A currency similar to today's fiat, where more money is constantly released into circulation.  Bitcoin also meets this definition and will continue to meet it until all 21 million coins are mined.

b) "Inflation" is also used to describe rising prices of goods, when the gallon of milk which cost 1 dollar on Monday costs 2 dollars on Tuesday.  This is also a correct definition, but has only a circumstantial link to "inflationary money" -- it can happen with a deflationary currency as well.  So NOT the one i mean in this thread.

Can we agree which definition we're using & is there a way to highlight the essential difference between an inflationary economy & one where demurrage money is used?  (a real question)

[shawshankinmate37927]

so fiat electronic currency.. right, people will be totally excited about "more of the same."

I would definitely be excited about it, especially if the transactions were irreversible.  It could make it much easier to exchange your fiat for bitcoins and vice versa.  Imagine if both parties of an exchange could send their currency to escrow.

[bitcoinpsftp]

What's scary is that if some other online currency REALLY took off with the uneducated, it could kill bitcoin...  This would mean that a lot of people wo uld lose a lot of money

[johnyj]

How could they save the economy by introducing negative interest?  Negative interest means more inflation, and all those money will go into bitcoin to hedge that risk. The only demand left is money and saving, everything else has already been built.

[Impaler]

I'm still not seeing a difference, possibly because we haven't agreed on the terminology.

a) Here's my definition of "inflation" (inflationary money) in this context:  A currency similar to today's fiat, where more money is constantly released into circulation.  Bitcoin also meets this definition and will continue to meet it until all 21 million coins are mined.

b) "Inflation" is also used to describe rising prices of goods, when the gallon of milk which cost 1 dollar on Monday costs 2 dollars on Tuesday.  This is also a correct definition, but has only a circumstantial link to "inflationary money" -- it can happen with a deflationary currency as well.  So NOT the one i mean in this thread.

Can we agree which definition we're using & is there a way to highlight the essential difference between an inflationary economy & one where demurrage money is used?  (a real question)

No economist (not even Von Misess) would agree with your A definition as Inflation, your just describing growth in Money Supply, where as even the most hard core Austrian would define Inflation as a growth in money supply IN EXCESS of the DEMAND FOR MONEY.  I know that lots of BTC people CALL growth in Money Supply Inflation but it is not, when I say Inflation I mean your B definition. 

But in any case if a growing money supply is something you dislike then you should like FRC because our money supply reaches it's cap in only 3 years (2 left to go), not some absurd 100 years in the future when we are all going to be long dead.  We can do this because we don't have to wean miners off of new coins and onto a full dependence on transaction fees, the demurrage recycling provides a ongoing revenue stream.

We could still have gone for some absurd 100 years of money supply growth, but we wanted to actually be the first and ONLY coin to reach a stable money supply.  It is an experiment and no one has any idea if Crypto-currency can actually survive without a growing money supply or what kind of effects it has on the economy and valuation so one way or the other we will provide a data point on that question.

Personally I don't think a flat money supply will work (deflation will result and interest rates will not fall to 0% which is our ultimate goal) so I am glad to have an experiment that can uphold or refute this position within my lifetime and in time to guide the future of crypto-currency while it is still in it's infancy.

[Siegfried]

This economy does not deserve to be saved.

It's a centrally-planned murder machine designed to enrich Manhattan and DC while bribing the Baby Boomers with the auctioned-off livelihoods of their grandchildren.

Well and succinctly said.

[crumbs]

It is a common misconception that demurrage is identical to inflation in it's effects on the economy.

Inflation always has a distinct negative effect caused by the slow destruction of the unit of account value of money.  Anyone with a basic economic knowledge knows that prices are the means by which a Free market so efficiently allocates scares resources, everyone is continually communicating their desires for goods and the availability of goods with prices when they make a purchase or set a price on goods for sale.  Inflation is always eroding the quality of that information, it is like packet-loss on your internet connection.  Low levels of inflation do not cause a terrible collapse mind you but they slowly invalidate all our old prices.

Note that Deflation is EQUALLY destructive to price information, prices only care about the absolute magnitude of change not the sign.  BTC hyper deflation is so bad that no one attempts to use BTC as a unit of account AT ALL, goods are prices in dollars and the spot exchange rate is used to determine every purchase, exactly as would be done in a nation with Hyper Inflationary currency that has some black market dollars in it that everyone uses as the unit of account.

The reason we have inflation at all is to keep money circulating, demurrage accomplishes the circulation without the destruction of price information.  Thus we can conclude it is a superior implementation.

all good except we have big inflation still in bitcoin. Adoption phase make price go up and down wildly.

Not if we use Impaler's definition of inflation, ("I know that lots of BTC people CALL growth in Money Supply Inflation but it is not, when I say Inflation I mean your B definition.").  Using his definition (which is the more common one outside outside of this forum), bitcoin economy is experiencing *deflation*. 

[PenAndPaper]

What's scary is that if some other online currency REALLY took off with the uneducated, it could kill bitcoin...  This would mean that a lot of people wo uld lose a lot of money

For such a currency to take off it must provide something trully innovative over bitcoin. So far it seems that's not easy to achieve.

[zachcope]

I really hope they take it seriously and implement demurrage in the USD.  That would send people to BTC in DROVES.

Agreed. This would secure Bitcoin as a world standard and reduce USD to something even Robert Mugabe wouldn't touch.

[zachcope]

Oh and this guy's currency idea is the biggest crock of shit I've heard for some time.

I don't know why banksters and Keynsians feel that economic activity and consumption are the main goals.

The goal of money should be to enable fruitfull economic activity and individual choices re work and consumption, not to get all us serfs running on the hamster wheel faster and faster to keep the banksters happy on their yachts snorting coke whilst using polluting the world even more.

</rant>