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Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2755935 times)
Come-from-Beyond
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February 04, 2014, 10:13:28 PM
 #29261

Will the Turing code be able to invoke higher level functions like "escrow NXT from acct to acct", "release escrow txid", "send DOGE", etc.

I think it's a bad idea. The language should have simple operations with near-equal consumption of resources. In this case it will be easy to assess fee required for contract execution.
Time used should be the key, maybe adjust it for CPU speed of forging node. Current swap state would need to be put into blockchain so next forging node can pick up where it left off, but we can limit memory space.

I am envisioning services provided by code running on the hub servers, so it is feasible to have 20 different altcoind's running and ready to be called. Also, anything else we can think of can be encapsulated into a function call. Need to be able to suspend a script after time limit anyway, otherwise infinite loop will be bad problem

James

Resource/fee consumption must be forger-agnostic.
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February 04, 2014, 10:14:54 PM
 #29262

Once we have a low-level language we'll be able to use any high-level language to translate it into low-level one.

If you use the abstract syntax tree based approach of Franz, your code would be platform neutral and any high-level language would only need to target the AST.

Nxt is simple. Let's follow KISS principle as long as possible.
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February 04, 2014, 10:15:57 PM
 #29263

rickyjames: you failed at reading CfB's quiz  Cool

Sigh.  I'm not as clever as I think.
you're killing the Santa Sad the "can not" test took only 10 seconds btw

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February 04, 2014, 10:16:07 PM
 #29264

Choose your language:

Versions of non-JVM languages Language    On JVM
Erlang    Erjang
JavaScript    Rhino
Pascal    Free Pascal
PHP            Quercus
Python    Jython
REXX    NetRexx[2]
Ruby    JRuby
Tcl            Jacl
   
Languages designed expressly for JVM Language
BBj
Clojure
Fantom
Groovy
MIDletPascal
Scala
Kawa

We need a low-level language. Most (all?) languages in ur list r high-level.

Why? What's the difference?

Once we have a low-level language we'll be able to use any high-level language to translate it into low-level one.

Translation from high-level to high-level is much more difficult.
So we agree then. Simplified machine language of some sort. Preferably one that already has compilers for C!

Just add ability to make function calls that are implemented by processes running on hub servers. Saving state to blockchain and each forging node restores it. Might need to charge 1 NXT for each context, but I bet a lot of people will gladly pay that to make sure their withdrawals are verified on external blockchain!!

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February 04, 2014, 10:17:14 PM
 #29265

Once we have a low-level language we'll be able to use any high-level language to translate it into low-level one.

If you use the abstract syntax tree based approach of Franz, your code would be platform neutral and any high-level language would only need to target the AST.

Nxt is simple. Let's follow KISS principle as long as possible.

Is there something that you would need me to code up as a proof-of-concept in order to consider the AST approach?

"An awful lot of code is being written ... in languages that aren't very good by people who don't know what they're doing." -- Barbara Liskov
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February 04, 2014, 10:18:35 PM
 #29266

We need some kind of a competition. The goal is to find a language with min number of opcodes.
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February 04, 2014, 10:19:59 PM
 #29267

Once we have a low-level language we'll be able to use any high-level language to translate it into low-level one.

If you use the abstract syntax tree based approach of Franz, your code would be platform neutral and any high-level language would only need to target the AST.

Nxt is simple. Let's follow KISS principle as long as possible.

If that's the way to go, then we shall use something already tested and bullet-proof instead of inventing the wheel anew.

What about ARM aka RISC? As in accordance of NXT power efficiency.
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February 04, 2014, 10:22:03 PM
 #29268

Is there something that you would need me to code up as a proof-of-concept in order to consider the AST approach?

The problem is not with AST approach. The problem is that Nxt should be as simple as possible to become wide-spread as much as possible. By mentioning "AST" word u increase entry barrier for programmers.
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February 04, 2014, 10:22:34 PM
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We need some kind of a competition. The goal is to find a language with min number of opcodes.

by this you mean instructions?!

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February 04, 2014, 10:23:12 PM
 #29270

Is there something that you would need me to code up as a proof-of-concept in order to consider the AST approach?

The problem is not with AST approach. The problem is that Nxt should be as simple as possible to become wide-spread as much as possible. By mentioning "AST" word u increase entry barrier for programmers.

Ok.  I understand now.

What about the VM outlined in N. Wirth's Compiler Construction?

"An awful lot of code is being written ... in languages that aren't very good by people who don't know what they're doing." -- Barbara Liskov
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February 04, 2014, 10:23:43 PM
 #29271

What about ARM aka RISC? As in accordance of NXT power efficiency.

We can't use ARM without virtualization. Current Nxt cores (Java and .NET versions) can't support virtualization.
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February 04, 2014, 10:23:54 PM
 #29272

We need some kind of a competition. The goal is to find a language with min number of opcodes.

Don't know if turing complete is too much of a RISC (no pun intented; hoho).

I know, you never, if you ever gonna need a feature.

One problem with that is for instance the halting problem.
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February 04, 2014, 10:24:24 PM
 #29273

Will the Turing code be able to invoke higher level functions like "escrow NXT from acct to acct", "release escrow txid", "send DOGE", etc.

I think it's a bad idea. The language should have simple operations with near-equal consumption of resources. In this case it will be easy to assess fee required for contract execution.
Time used should be the key, maybe adjust it for CPU speed of forging node. Current swap state would need to be put into blockchain so next forging node can pick up where it left off, but we can limit memory space.

I am envisioning services provided by code running on the hub servers, so it is feasible to have 20 different altcoind's running and ready to be called. Also, anything else we can think of can be encapsulated into a function call. Need to be able to suspend a script after time limit anyway, otherwise infinite loop will be bad problem

James

Resource/fee consumption must be forger-agnostic.
OK, 1 NXT per runtime context where it actually does anything.

Getting context just to check status and not do anything could be free, if there was an initial cost to cover this overhead. Maybe part of submitting a script to the network could include frequency or other global variables, not all scripts need to run every block.

I realize this contaminates the purity of the language, but I am just trying to make it easy for people to write scripts. Look at metatrader. They made global variables out of all the commonly needed data, eg. recent prices at various resolutions. That made it so thousands of EA (expert advisors they are called) were written.

I want to support direct blockchain trading for all the other coins, so triggers to activate a script could reference any of the other blockchains.

If there was a way to interconnect different scripts, then there could be a master script that runs and then conditionally triggers other scripts only when needed.

We are behind etherium, so we need to leap past them by implementing low level primitives that allow immediate implementation of actually useful functionality.

Decentralized trustless trading of any crypto against any other crypto. That I am sure will be big.

James

http://www.digitalcatallaxy.com/report2015.html
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February 04, 2014, 10:24:40 PM
 #29274

What about the VM outlined in N. Wirth's Compiler Construction?

I haven't heard about it so I can't answer.
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February 04, 2014, 10:25:09 PM
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February 04, 2014, 10:26:13 PM
 #29276

One problem with that is for instance the halting problem.

Halt is a legit way to terminate contract execution. At least Ethereum creators say so.
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February 04, 2014, 10:26:23 PM
 #29277

What about ARM aka RISC? As in accordance of NXT power efficiency.

We can't use ARM without virtualization. Current Nxt cores (Java and .NET versions) can't support virtualization.

What exactly do you mean by virtualization?
How else do you want to execute it on my machine? On real metal? No way!

You have to have an environment anyway.
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February 04, 2014, 10:27:41 PM
 #29278



Nxt chocolate cookies!  Grin

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February 04, 2014, 10:29:07 PM
 #29279

Maybe part of submitting a script to the network could include frequency or other global variables, not all scripts need to run every block.

Transactions should be processed only upon including into a block. If u need an algo that "wakes up" every 5 minutes then ur algo has to send  a new transaction each time.
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February 04, 2014, 10:30:06 PM
 #29280

One problem with that is for instance the halting problem.

Halt is a legit way to terminate contract execution. At least Ethereum creators say so.

Well, okay. You could pay per operation.
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