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Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2753842 times)
xyzzyx
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February 05, 2014, 08:21:09 PM
 #29981

Just stepped back in and caught up.  Lots of stuff going on in the few hours I was away.

Regarding min fee, I think Passion_ltc's estimate is good:  0.25

That's assuming there is a large jump in Nxt price.  $1 USD per NXT seems a bit unrealistic to me at this time.  Then again, as I like to tell my friends, if there's one thing I know I do understand about cryptocurrency markets it's that I don't understand cryptocurrency markets.  Wink

On Visa speeds and marketing: If saying we have Visa speeds or 1000 tps is worrying people that it may lead to unfulfilled expectations then I think we don't have to compare Nxt to Visa in marketing.  Instead perhaps we should say near-real-time or near-instant transactions. Or just the fastest transaction times in cryptocurrency.

On Turing-completeness and marketing: we shouldn't use the T-word in marketing, or perhaps only in the fine print.  Instead, we should push "smart transactions" or "complex transactions automatically" or "programmable transactions" and have aside-style blurbs to explain further for those interested.

On Turing-completeness and other Nxt work: some people expressed concern that we would be working on this instead of other features.  They might have a point.  However, only speaking for myself, the area of virtual machines is something I have experience in and is a place I can contribute.  Other features of Nxt, that's all new territory for me so I can't just jump in an be productive in those areas.  

I took a look at zero-knowlege proofs and that might as well be black-mathemagic to me.  

But VMs I learned how to do those back in the '90s.

Forging on low-cost computers with limited storage: those days may be numbered.  Leasing forging power will be where we want to shift marketing once it is implemented.

On 0.5.12: oh shit.  Upgraded.

"An awful lot of code is being written ... in languages that aren't very good by people who don't know what they're doing." -- Barbara Liskov
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February 05, 2014, 08:22:38 PM
 #29982

If there was a guide for how to run a static-IP / VPS node, I might be willing to do it.

It's the same as running a local node. Just set ur IP in web.xml.

I've been looking all over for this little piece of information...  It is not available on the wiki, or the OP, etc.


There is something on the wiki

http://www.thenxtwiki.org/wiki/How-To:CreatePublicNode

I havent checked to see how you nav to it from the wiki frontpage though, so you may have given us a littly job to do.

It's linked off the menu on the left-hand side, through "How To Guides". You can also use the search bar; in this case, "VPS" is a particularly useful search term.

Remind me not to compose replies in the browser window.  This is the third time I am writing this (second rewrite) because of "Bad Gateway."  I am replying on https://forums.nxtcrypto.org/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=738.  If I ever get this to post, it was because I used the firefox "reload" button instead of the "back" button, and replied "yes" to the "resend info" question.
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February 05, 2014, 08:29:48 PM
 #29983

I know and that might be part of the reason I go balistic on these kind of post from him especially. It feels like he is the one to decide and critize and others who get sponsored (or not) got to do all the work.

guys, lets all just take a step back for a second and take a deep breath.  it looks like we are well past the point where we start to fragment.  A few weeks ago we were all doing great as a team.  When did it start to change?  I went over to nextcoin to ask about something in the peerexplorer thread and got accused of hiding something for running my network of heavy-hallmarked VPSs.

Not sure what is going wrong here.. LOL is that the real experiment?  Is it really a social experiment BCNext is playing on us?  LOL

It's not uncommon at all Smiley

Apparently were entering a new phase, some new people come in, some developments create tension etc.

This happens in ANY group. It's not a biggie so long as a bit of lightheartedness stays.

Once we all take it very seriously, then there will be problems.

Some things didn't go the way we expected. That is never fun. Apparently they are fixable to some extent and some ideas will need to be changed. Smiley

Let's keep in mind that we are still moving enormously fast for a decentral group. A bit of appreciation for all your own efforts is a good thing.


Member of the Nxt Foundation | Donations: NXT-D6K7-MLY6-98FM-FLL5T
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February 05, 2014, 08:33:01 PM
 #29984

Fee should be as close to zero to possible because processing a transaction costs basically nothing... it's so ridiculous this is even a question. 0.000001NXT.  

1000 TPS or whatever shouldn't be a problem, you only need about 32GB in theory (maximum, almost impossible case), a few MBs in practice for that. If that is a problem, just give each node 1/6 of required data (so you need 6 nodes to restore the thing) etc... but it shouldn't, ever.  


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February 05, 2014, 08:33:19 PM
 #29985

Regarding Scripts:

Every script will reserve a chunk of memory (subject to fee charging).
Every memory cell will be a signed 64-bit integer.
Scripts won't be able to modify themselves nor other scripts, so JIT-compilation could be easily used.
Scripts will run in a sandbox by a byte-code interpretator.
Each operation will require the same amount of NXT, if an account runs out of coins then interpretation is halted.
Scripts will be able to read block and transaction data in format-agnostic manner, they will also be able to "send" transaction. Such the transactions won't require to be signed, they will be able to spend money from the original account only.
Forgers won't "interpret" scripts, interpretation will occur during pushing the block.


Something that I probably missed:

How is the script being included into the scripts-blockchain? By sending it to forgers like transactions?
How is the script being deactivated on the blockchain i.e. nobody can execute in anymore?

Who has the permissions to do what?
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February 05, 2014, 08:37:34 PM
 #29986

Here r instructions proposed by me. Only pure logic, block/transaction handling will be added later. All numbers r signed 64-bit integers when accessing Data and signed 32-bit integers when referring to Code.

Legend: C - constant, M - memory

M = C
M = M

M = M + M
M = M - M
M = M * M
M = M / M
M = M % M

M = ~M
M = M & M
M = M | M
M = M ^ M
M = M << M
M = M >> M
M = M >>> M

M == M @ C (this is read as "if M1 equals M2 then jump to instruction at position C")
M != M @ C
M < M @ C
M <= M @ C
M > M @ C
M >= M @ C
@ M (this is an unconditional jump)


Nothing extraordinary.
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February 05, 2014, 08:41:02 PM
 #29987

guys, lets all just take a step back for a second and take a deep breath.  it looks like we are well past the point where we start to fragment.  A few weeks ago we were all doing great as a team.  When did it start to change?  I went over to nextcoin to ask about something in the peerexplorer thread and got accused of hiding something for running my network of heavy-hallmarked VPSs.

Not sure what is going wrong here.. LOL is that the real experiment?  Is it really a social experiment BCNext is playing on us?  LOL

I'm cool... I'm cool... ;-)  Will take a day off from NXT tomorrow. On average, NXT community rocks! :-)
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February 05, 2014, 08:41:31 PM
 #29988

Here r instructions proposed by me. Only pure logic, block/transaction handling will be added later. All numbers r signed 64-bit integers when accessing Data and signed 32-bit integers when referring to Code.

Legend: C - constant, M - memory

M = C
M = M

M = M + M
M = M - M
M = M * M
M = M / M
M = M % M

M = ~M
M = M & M
M = M | M
M = M ^ M
M = M << M
M = M >> M
M = M >>> M

M == M @ C (this is read as "if M1 equals M2 then jump to instruction at position C")
M != M @ C
M < M @ C
M <= M @ C
M > M @ C
M >= M @ C
@ M (this is an unconditional jump)


Nothing extraordinary.
Where is indirect memory access?

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February 05, 2014, 08:43:08 PM
 #29989

How is the script being included into the scripts-blockchain? By sending it to forgers like transactions?
How is the script being deactivated on the blockchain i.e. nobody can execute in anymore?

Who has the permissions to do what?

Like a transaction.
Scripts r executed when blocks r added to the blockchain.

Anyone can do that.
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February 05, 2014, 08:45:19 PM
 #29990

Where is indirect memory access?

M can be accessed as [C] or [M].
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February 05, 2014, 08:49:25 PM
 #29991

Here is version 1.6 of my Windows NXT client "NXT Solaris". Still closed-source, but I am getting at it... :-)

The future open-source client is still missing the market graphs and all data grids show raw data only. I still need to finish the GUI design here.

Changelog
Changed for v1.6:
-Two versions are now included: closed and (future) open source version (open source code to be released until February 16th, 2014)
-Starter application lets you choose between open and closed source version
-NRS and JRE are now bundled with NXT Solaris. One download to get up and running.
-Updated Vircurex API address
-Removed NxtChg.com exchange
-Random secrets are now 25 characters long to make the keypass password quality display happy (it doesn’t know the size of the alphabet)
-A couple of bug fixes


Download
64-bit Version: NXTSolaris-v1.6-64bit.zip (132 MB) – Download here
SHA256 checksum for NXTSolaris-v1.6-64bit.zip: F509E1EABD75A579E5C1238A64C32C0240FB3AC6DD933488F501E3949F6DAF6A

32-bit Version: NXTSolaris-v1.6-32bit.zip (128 MB) – Download here
SHA256 checksum for NXTSolaris-v1.6-32bit.zip: 3ADD9268CECD5EF9479E26BDD35C9EDC002AFA785A646F5BA44E3D77E3993BB3

For screenshots and everything else please visit: http://nxtsolaris.wordpress.com/


Installation
Simply unzip the archive and run the NXTSolarisStarter.exe file.

The current version 1.6 is not compatible with previous versions, so please delete any existing NXT Solaris files before updating to 1.6.

Roadmap
1.) Move current version of my code to XE5 and release closed source 32-bit and 64-bit versions for Windows. [DONE]
2.) Refactor code to a MVC architecture, so that I can create separate GUIs while using the same version of the business logic code. [DONE]
3.) Create new GUIs for Windows and OS X using the same business logic, but based on the cross-platform Firemonkey libraries. [90% DONE]
4.) Release Windows version (32 and 64 bit) based on FireMonkey. [DONE]
5.) Release source-code for FireMonkey Windows version (February 16th, 2014 latest)
6.) Implement new features from the TODO list
7.) OSX compatibility changes
8.) Release OSX version based on FireMonkey.
9.) Release source code for FireMonkey OSX version.

TODO list
-OS version: Design all data grids
-OS version: Market graph
-Offer a simple and advanced GUI, with the simple GUI targeted at new users
-Implement client side Curve25519 encryption/signing
-Arbitrary message encryption


Donations
I hope you like my client and I’d be extremely happy to see some donations for the future of this project!

NXT: 1758531264253431177
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February 05, 2014, 08:51:57 PM
 #29992

Just want to catch on the discussion we had this afternoon about features and target audience for nxt.

1. (Possible) Features:
- TF for instant transactions
- TF + punishment against 50% attacks (correct?)
- no bloated blockchain
- energy friendly crypto
- mobile friendly crypto
- easy to add new features
- many many TPS
- parallel blockchains
- blockchain shrinking
- decentralized exchange
- colored coins
- decentralized voting/opiniongrabber
- decentralized AM (data storage, link storage (eg torrents), encrypted messaging, ...)
- dividend payouts (all fees per block) for everyone instead of mining of the few with lots of power
- Turing capability
- smart contracts
- anonymous transactions
- SMS gateway

2. Today it was clear that the nxt community isn't sure yet, which features are the most important ones, which could be ignored in favor of other features (some exclude each other), and who the target audience is. Would it be easier if we knew plan 2 and 3 from BCNext? I don't know. But regardless of BCNext's plans, we should discuss this topic in the community: which is our target audience now, next months and in one year? Does this depend on the features we implement or does the features depend on the audience we want to tackle? The answer is clear (or is nxt just fundamental research?) That's why we should discuss this.

3. Some thoughts on some features and their implications:
- TF was and is our key ingredient in nxt. I have no clue at which state it is right now, who will develop all the core ingredients of TF (JL?) and how important it will be in one year
- bloated blockchain: although I was quite shocked about today's statements about the size of the blockchain, I see it more clearly now. First of all I think it is still bad because solar powered  RaspberryPis and AndroidTV sticks will not work for securing the nxt network in the future, IF we will get to a large TPS. The idea of thousands of raspberrypis working and securing nxt is dead. That's really sad because it was a really nice idea, especially marketing wise. Otherwise, I came to the conclusion that our chain should currently be measured with the same transaction amount as bitcoin has right now. And then, our block chain is cute and tiny.
- we are still very energy friendly, but the loss of raspberrypis in the future is a slap in the marketing face
- with lightweight clients, we are able to use nxt on every smartphone. BUT is this different and superior to BTC if we can’t actually forge with our phone? (Leasing forge power is not the same since we are not really part of the nxt network with the phone). When we implement block shrinking and parallel blockchains, we could shovel weight of the important transaction chain which means smartphones and raspberrypis could work longer for nxt (until how many TPS? I have one clue)
- SMS gateway (bounty by CfB) must be developed (eg Africa is using SMS as some sort of currency). This would be a really nice feature, especially for marketing
- do we need turing stuff? if we have the resources to develop this (i don’t want CfB to waste his energy if this is a nice, but not a must have feature or if this feature would make some other features impossible (like high TPS or no bloated blockchain)), let’s do it. it is nice marketing also.
- High and fast TPS is important for a special target audience (professionals like people relying on VISA). It was advertised big since the beginning. if we are able to keep this promise, then we must do this. or we also should look at the possibility of hight TPS if we implement other features which might interfere with hight TPS.
- anonymous transactions is a freaking HUGE opportunity. if we can tackle this, then, absolutely, let’s do it.
- decentralized exchange and colored coins are a must.
- CfB states many times that it is easy to implement new features in nxt. I am no dev and just have to believe him. It should always be easy so nxt can adapt to new ideas and technologies.

some features are implemented, some are discussed, and some are plain ideas. We should discuss where nxt is heading to get a clear view what should be implemented in the next months. We should discuss all ideas and get an overview WHO will develop which services or features. And we should make a clear distinction between service providers (which uses nxt) and nxt features (which build nxt). and we should always be aware of paradox decisions (like 1000000TPS and mini blockchain for example). Now I have no clue who is responsible for what. I have a fear that many things just don’t get done because of diffusion of responsibility (Google it). I hope i’m wrong.



Maybe I forgot many major things, but it is a starting point.

-

All the written stuff above could be total bullshit, because I'm no programmer and have difficulties to keep up with all the stuff what's going on in the nxt ecosystem.

I sincerely hope that I get some comments from devs, idea makers, marketers, ... And I hope we get a discussion started about target audience, features and what is the meaning of nxt.

Please respond (think about diffusion of responsibility if you don’t want to click “reply”).

tl;dr invest in doge.
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February 05, 2014, 08:53:15 PM
 #29993

Fee should be as close to zero to possible because processing a transaction costs basically nothing... it's so ridiculous this is even a question. 0.000001NXT.  

1000 TPS or whatever shouldn't be a problem, you only need about 32GB in theory (maximum, almost impossible case), a few MBs in practice for that. If that is a problem, just give each node 1/6 of required data (so you need 6 nodes to restore the thing) etc... but it shouldn't, ever.  



Yes, but we have to be cognizant to not allow the blockchain to be spammed too cheaply via the AM or other transaction type.  So lets talk about this a bit....

Firstly GUYS (and few gals we have here), we shouldn't tie the fee to try to force it to coincide with any fiat!!!  

At current min of 1 NXT fee for any transaction except issue asset (which isnt even possible yet) it is possible to stack up to 1000 bytes (I think) via AM, per AM transaction.  Is that 1000 bytes correct?  Now we could potentially just make the min fee for AM be different than for a regular transaction to prevent bloat.  Now we are planning on removing AM every checkpoint/year/whatever, but what about alias?  These are planned on staying forever right?  Has anyone considered  how much space can an alias transaction could potentially take up, between the alias string itself, and its URL?

How about this...  Set a min fee PER BYTE SIZE OF THE TRANSACTION IN QUESTION.  And scale it up.  So we can start with modeling for .001 per byte or something like that.  Can some experts model for us then what the cost for certain transactions would be?

Wat u guys think?
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February 05, 2014, 09:02:01 PM
 #29994

I am completely updated, used the 5.11 blockchain on my home nodes, rebuilt from scratch on the VPS. Seems to work fine in both cases....

So could everyone else update to 5.12, please ?


For the rest :

Take some chill pills,guys. We've made a hell of a lot of progress over the last couple of months. There are always going to be moments when things dont go quite as we'd like them to and people start to get grumpy and take it out on each other.

So relax a bit, we are still ahead of the game and heading in roughly the right direction.....and almost as a unit.

Heres a quick re-post from me from last night, seems appropriate to put it up again:

Now that I've caught up with this thread, and it's almost bed time for the Evil one, I've got a couple of non-coding points to make:
(love the code talk, btw, I can smell the big-brain coding skills from here, it's the smell of success!)

Great job everyone, these last few pages of juicy dev talk are giving me the first nxt hard-on this february.
+1

Voting:
NXTvote.com looks tight
Damn right on that, having nxtvote up and running will make decisions around here a lot easier and probably fairer.


Most important bit: CfB and BCNext:

We've always known that CfB wasn't going to be around forever as NXT dev-in-chief.
He's a talented guy and without him, NXT would not be what it is today.
But we have a lot of talented guys (take a bow, everyone) and more coming in every day. NXT will carry on without CfB and will still be a success. We got thru 4 days without him last week, and made some good progress in that time.

It's easy to see guys in important roles as irreplaceable leaders, but the truth is that anyone can be replaced.
So stop looking at him like he's the Messiah, he's just a very naughty boy.


BCNext has good reason to be Mr. Anonymouse, look at the amount of pressure that gets put on Dan/Fuserleer from eMunie. Every time he sneezes, eMunie catches a cold. He definitely doesn't want to be the Messiah....
With BCNext in the background, communicating only with mysterious prophesies and complex code, the NXT community is forced to step up and build almost everything we need ourselves, which makes NXT a lot stronger than if we always had the option to turn to BCNext and ask "What do we do now, Daddy?" 

Ask yourselves this: if CfB was always going to be here, and BCnext was actually present and working, what would NXT look like now ?
A massive community, or 2 guys working and a 1000 watching?

Last point:
Get on with each other, ffs, save the fighting until we are on our island paradise in the Maldives.....we can build a Thunderdome!


Nulli Dei, nulli Reges, solum NXT
Love your money: www.nxt.org  www.ardorplatform.org
www.nxter.org  www.nxtfoundation.org
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February 05, 2014, 09:03:28 PM
 #29995

Fee should be as close to zero to possible because processing a transaction costs basically nothing... it's so ridiculous this is even a question. 0.000001NXT.  

1000 TPS or whatever shouldn't be a problem, you only need about 32GB in theory (maximum, almost impossible case), a few MBs in practice for that. If that is a problem, just give each node 1/6 of required data (so you need 6 nodes to restore the thing) etc... but it shouldn't, ever.  



Yes, but we have to be cognizant to not allow the blockchain to be spammed too cheaply via the AM or other transaction type.  So lets talk about this a bit....

Firstly GUYS (and few gals we have here), we shouldn't tie the fee to try to force it to coincide with any fiat!!!  

At current min of 1 NXT fee for any transaction except issue asset (which isnt even possible yet) it is possible to stack up to 1000 bytes (I think) via AM, per AM transaction.  Is that 1000 bytes correct?  Now we could potentially just make the min fee for AM be different than for a regular transaction to prevent bloat.  Now we are planning on removing AM every checkpoint/year/whatever, but what about alias?  These are planned on staying forever right?  Has anyone considered  how much space can an alias transaction could potentially take up, between the alias string itself, and its URL?

How about this...  Set a min fee PER BYTE SIZE OF THE TRANSACTION IN QUESTION.  And scale it up.  So we can start with modeling for .001 per byte or something like that.  Can some experts model for us then what the cost for certain transactions would be?

Wat u guys think?

Spamming the blockchain would actually be good, as this would give the incentive to fix the blockchain problem and allow almost unlimited transaction rates.

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February 05, 2014, 09:11:29 PM
 #29996

Can you guys please test http://www.nxtvote.com/?

Check it out, search for bugs, for improvements and so on! Smiley


I know it's not possible to view finished votes right now. But this won't be a problem for now. Smiley

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February 05, 2014, 09:12:24 PM
 #29997

1 NXT fee. I don't see any reason of lowering the fee today. Maybe then 1 NXT will be 1 USD.

I'd say:
$0.5 - 0.5 Nxt fee
$1.0 - 0.25 Nxt fee
$1.5 - 0.15 Nxt fee
etc

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February 05, 2014, 09:18:02 PM
 #29998

Some want it the way it is:

In numbers: 1.0 Count me in on that.

There are several others.

Got you for 1.0.  Will repost after more to tally.

Can you point me to the other 1.0s?  Is a little difficult to tally when not clearly specified.

(and, I really don't *want* to be responsible for tallying these votes...  consolidating for review)

make a google docs spreadsheet, with 4 columns: 1, .1, .01, .001
then put each username in the respective column.  we all need to decided if/how community will allow 2 votes per person for different categories or let them put their 2 votes in 1 category
lock it down so only you can update it, but that anyone with direct link can view it
receive community's thanks for doing this work

good move!
may you add columns for each feature?
so we could discuss an fee-decrease in all dimensions.

NxT: 13574045486980287597
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February 05, 2014, 09:25:55 PM
 #29999

Can you guys please test http://www.nxtvote.com/?

Check it out, search for bugs, for improvements and so on! Smiley


I know it's not possible to view finished votes right now. But this won't be a problem for now. Smiley

How can I find an address for sending money if I close that page?

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February 05, 2014, 09:27:11 PM
 #30000

Can you guys please test http://www.nxtvote.com/?

Check it out, search for bugs, for improvements and so on! Smiley


I know it's not possible to view finished votes right now. But this won't be a problem for now. Smiley


Just put up a voting topic:

Is EvilDave the most evil member of the NXT community?
go to:
 
http://www.nxtvote.com/vote.php

To make your vote on this important issue.
Parameters: accounts with over 1000 NXT, existing for last 5000 blocks, deadline 1000 blocks so we'll know pretty soon.

If this works as well as it looks, we could be seeing the end of a lot of endless discussions......nice work, guys!

(can I have my 10 NXT back now, please?)

EDIT: How many confirmations before a vote goes live?

Nulli Dei, nulli Reges, solum NXT
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