Bitcoin Forum
July 22, 2019, 11:01:01 AM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 0.18.0 [Torrent] (New!)
 
   Home   Help Search Login Register More  
Pages: « 1 ... 1458 1459 1460 1461 1462 1463 1464 1465 1466 1467 1468 1469 1470 1471 1472 1473 1474 1475 1476 1477 1478 1479 1480 1481 1482 1483 1484 1485 1486 1487 1488 1489 1490 1491 1492 1493 1494 1495 1496 1497 1498 1499 1500 1501 1502 1503 1504 1505 1506 1507 [1508] 1509 1510 1511 1512 1513 1514 1515 1516 1517 1518 1519 1520 1521 1522 1523 1524 1525 1526 1527 1528 1529 1530 1531 1532 1533 1534 1535 1536 1537 1538 1539 1540 1541 1542 1543 1544 1545 1546 1547 1548 1549 1550 1551 1552 1553 1554 1555 1556 1557 1558 ... 2567 »
  Print  
Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2755394 times)
opticalcarrier
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 238
Merit: 100



View Profile
February 06, 2014, 02:34:02 AM
 #30141

<WALL O TEXT> (I did read it all)

Im with you.  But genesis synthesis is not trivial, and right now is actually unknown.  Will it need to be made as an automatic process, where every 500K blocks a forger must forge for free the new genesis block?  I kind of think so.

Then we have the problem where I dont think dev will release specifics on the genesis block, to prevent clones.  Remember CfB's traps he has for clones who make their own genesis?
Advertised sites are not endorsed by the Bitcoin Forum. They may be unsafe, untrustworthy, or illegal in your jurisdiction. Advertise here.
1563793261
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1563793261

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1563793261
Reply with quote  #2

1563793261
Report to moderator
1563793261
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1563793261

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1563793261
Reply with quote  #2

1563793261
Report to moderator
1563793261
Hero Member
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1563793261

View Profile Personal Message (Offline)

Ignore
1563793261
Reply with quote  #2

1563793261
Report to moderator
VanBreuk
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 460
Merit: 250



View Profile
February 06, 2014, 02:42:22 AM
 #30142

Immediate monstercrash starting 6.0 on my VPS....

Same. Seems to work fine starting from scratch.
rickyjames
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 196
Merit: 100


View Profile
February 06, 2014, 02:46:38 AM
 #30143

<WALL O TEXT> (I did read it all)

Im with you.  But genesis synthesis is not trivial, and right now is actually unknown.  Will it need to be made as an automatic process, where every 500K blocks a forger must forge for free the new genesis block?  I kind of think so.

Then we have the problem where I dont think dev will release specifics on the genesis block, to prevent clones.  Remember CfB's traps he has for clones who make their own genesis?

500K blocks is 500,000 minutes of time and that's a blockchain pruning slightly less than once per year.  During that time it will grow by 500,000 * 128K = 3.84 TB.  We have got to forge a genesis block a LOT more often to keep the overall block chain small enough so Raspberry Pis and Smartphones can still participate in regular add-128K-of-transactions blocks (if they can - that's part of what we're testing and why they call it a testnet.  Maybe we got to Odroids.  Maybe we box ourselves in to nothing but VPSs and a few super VPSs.  We don't know.  Let's find out.)

If we can recast a genesis block every 20th block as part of the routine operation of the NXT blockchain, we have accomplished something very, very special - a self limiting blockchain that grows very slowly.  It may not be JD Bruce's mod-the-account balances every block idea come to life, but as a kluge it could give us 1000 TPS in a test net sooner rather than later.

As for clones, let's build this first and keep the high ground through innovation.

This is worth trying.  Let's do it.
bidji29
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 392
Merit: 250


View Profile
February 06, 2014, 02:48:12 AM
 #30144

I agree with rickyjames on the blockchain pruning.
It should be done soon to test.

I guess you just need to recreate a genesis block and restart from that.
But network can't do that instantly, there will be downtime. How do we handle that?

Who create that genesis block and distribute it? Or maybe everyone can create it with a simple tool.
How do we coordinate everyone?

Maybe client could integrate a pruning feature

http://www.freebieservers.com/  100% FREE GAME SERVERS
rickyjames
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 196
Merit: 100


View Profile
February 06, 2014, 02:49:48 AM
 #30145

I agree with rickyjames on the blockchain pruning.
It should be done soon to test.

I guess you just need to recreate a genesis block and restart from that.
But network can't do that instantly, there will be downtime. How do we handle that?

A requirement is a machine that can do a genesis block in under a minute from an existing blockchain so it fits in with the tick-tock once per minute pattern of block forgings.  Is this even remotely feasible for a say 5 MB blockchain?  Discuss.
bidji29
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 392
Merit: 250


View Profile
February 06, 2014, 02:52:17 AM
 #30146

Do  pruned and non-pruned blockchain node can interact with each other?

http://www.freebieservers.com/  100% FREE GAME SERVERS
opticalcarrier
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 238
Merit: 100



View Profile
February 06, 2014, 02:56:53 AM
Last edit: February 06, 2014, 03:12:59 AM by opticalcarrier
 #30147

I agree with rickyjames on the blockchain pruning.
It should be done soon to test.

I guess you just need to recreate a genesis block and restart from that.
But network can't do that instantly, there will be downtime. How do we handle that?

A requirement is a machine that can do a genesis block in under a minute from an existing blockchain so it fits in with the tick-tock once per minute pattern of block forgings.  Is this even remotely feasible for a say 5 MB blockchain?  Discuss.

I believe the way it will have to work is a network-wide rule of "every Xth block" or "blockchainsize=Y" or some other defined situation that requires the next block to be a new genesis synthesis. I believe the new genesis systhesis will have to be done for free by the forging node though.  But as long as the network REQUIRES it, then at the point that the condition requires it, then all forging nodes will forget about processing new transactions and will work on forging the new genesis, and if some forging node tries to forge a block with transactions, the network will reject it.

So standard forging rules for the new genesis as the next block will occur.  And if a node cant keep up to perform the task (rasPI, smartphone,etc) then another node will step in, just like happens with new blocks now

Will require a minute of downtime every genesis though, best case, assuming it can be done automatically, which should be possible.

At least should be possible whenever the devs give up the secret to the genesis.

Im all in for this testnet though, can easily generate VPSs running instances of NXT.  very cool project.  We can load up a smartphone and raspi with tons of testNXT so as to force them to forge more often to get an idea of their performance


ETA we will not be able to use a "genesis node" for forging the new genesis, it must be a network wide rule thing that other nodes can reject new genesis if need be (to avoid centralization)
iruu
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 148
Merit: 100


View Profile
February 06, 2014, 02:57:39 AM
 #30148

Immediate monstercrash starting 6.0 on my VPS....
The monstercrash is due to blockchain storage property re-added to web.xml. *.nxt files work.

rickyjames
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 196
Merit: 100


View Profile
February 06, 2014, 02:58:33 AM
 #30149

Do  pruned and non-pruned blockchain node can interact with each other?
They would have to.  THe genesis node has got to distribute the new genesis block to the non-genesis nodes in the minute.  And while the new genesis block is being forged, no new transactions for that minute.  The transaction nodes know that a genesis node is thinking.
iruu
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 148
Merit: 100


View Profile
February 06, 2014, 03:00:16 AM
 #30150



If we can recast a genesis block every 20th block as part of the routine operation of the NXT blockchain, we have accomplished something very, very special - a self limiting blockchain that grows very slowly.
A blockchain needs to be as long as longest possible fork, at least. I don't know, half a day? Definitely not 20 blocks. 

lucky88888
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 404
Merit: 250


https://nxtforum.org/


View Profile
February 06, 2014, 03:01:46 AM
 #30151

VOTE 0.1 FEE per transaction
This will encourage those new nxters who's only income are from faucets.
If they get 2 nxt, they are likely happy to send 1nxt out for fun or to a friend and still end up with some balance.


EVERYONE MUST UPDATE TO 0.6.0 to AVOID ANY LOSSES


Quote
162.243.82.115      162.243.82.115      0      2 B      140 B      NRS (0.6.0) @ MOON

Fuck Mt.Gox! Fuck Mintpal! Fuck Bter! FUCK kyc! Protect yourself use MGW! SUPERNET!
Recommended ASSET ->InstantDex : Lead Dev Jl777 (decentralized multi currency instant exchange)
Recommended ASSET -> Jinn : Lead Dev Come-from-Beyond (ternary processors!)
https://nxtforum.org/news-and-announcements/(ann)-jinn/
CIYAM
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1890
Merit: 1003


Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer


View Profile WWW
February 06, 2014, 03:09:30 AM
 #30152

A blockchain needs to be as long as longest possible fork, at least. I don't know, half a day? Definitely not 20 blocks.  

Agreed - so a new "genesis" block would have to be the balance of all accounts from before the last possible "re-org" point.

BTW - said "genesis" block is going to become "huge" in the future (if we had one million accounts then surely we are talking 200-300 MB which you are not very likely to be able to be sending to nodes very quickly - or are we working on some sort of special format to "compress" a genesis block?).

Although it could be divisive it might also be worth "pruning" tiny balance accounts (ones with less than or equal to the minimum fee say) and having those as "fee rewards" for the construction of the new genesis block (this gives some added incentive to create it rather than just to "skip your turn" because of the "work involved").

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
MarvellousMutant
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 39
Merit: 0


View Profile
February 06, 2014, 03:09:42 AM
 #30153

Fee voting tally google doc spreadsheet.  Please check your vote and PM me if I made a mistake.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Akjrt0LTBXgcdFFkSGMwXzd4Q2NPU21yU2NOYWVldlE&usp=sharing


Well done, sir!
pandaisftw
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 224
Merit: 100


View Profile
February 06, 2014, 03:13:06 AM
 #30154

If we do pruning (aka restart genesis) every 1k blocks, I'm pretty sure even the slowest smartphone can do it in under a second. Assuming a constant 1000tps, that's 60,000,000 transactions every 1000 blocks. I'm not sure how many processor cycles it takes to iterate through each transaction and do addition/subtraction to the proper accounts. I'm pretty sure my galaxy S2 (old phone, I know) can crunch that in a few seconds tops.

Even if the device couldn't crunch all that data within the minute, what is prevent the node from precalculating? For example, as each new block is added, the node will add all of the transactions that happened in that block to the ones that happened before. In this way, when the 1000th block hits, all of the nodes will already have the complete picture, ready to broadcast, forming a seamless transition between the old genesis and the new. Those who have a different picture (less difficulty) will be rejected.

Lastly, this:


Did the author really attribute NXT's success to the ~60 members of reddit? Terrible article, it reeks of paid advertising.

I officially request that the NXTcommunityfund put out a bounty for the first person that successfully forges a block onto a simulated 300 GB NXT blockchain in a testbed setup.  Full specifications of system used and documentation of experiences in accomplishing the task required to claim the reward.
If infrastructure committee does not take care of this, i will create bounty

I like fee of .1 nxt for now, we can adjust again later

I think marketing should shift to 100 tps and this allows raspis to be useful, let moores law keep doubling our tps. Bitcoin blockchain does not gain tps with moores law, nxt does

In two years 300 gb wont seem so big

Also, nxt core is such that all cool stuff, mission critical, competitor defensive, fun and quirky, everything can be developed in parallel as long as we have the resources.

We now have nearly 1 million usd budget to be able to fund everything in parallel, plus as nxt gains value so does budget!

These are very good developments for nxt! We are discussing seious issues and ways to improve all aspects of nxt. Everyone can contribute. I am so proud to be part of NXT!!!

James
Where did 300GB come from? That's way too much.
Nxt needs about 32GB (theoretical, unreachable maximum) for balances...

Now that you mention this, I do remember C-f-b mentioning 32GB would be the hard limit, but why is this?

NXT: 13095091276527367030
iruu
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 148
Merit: 100


View Profile
February 06, 2014, 03:14:13 AM
 #30155

BTW - said "genesis" block is going to become "huge" in the future (if we had one million accounts then surely we are talking 200-300 MB which you are not very likely to be able to be sending to nodes very quickly - or are we working on some sort of special format to "compress" a genesis block?).
Yes, but there's no need for that.  
A balance sheet is not something that needs to be forged. Every node should do it by itself - it has all available data.  
The only thing they should do is send the hash of deterministically-generated balance sheet after block x. The version with most NXT behind it becomes the official one.  

iruu
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 148
Merit: 100


View Profile
February 06, 2014, 03:15:41 AM
 #30156

Now that you mention this, I do remember C-f-b mentioning 32GB would be the hard limit, but why is this?
One billion (all possible nxt coins) * 32 bytes (length of public key). This assumes 1 NXT minimum balance. 
Obviously, much less in practice.

xyzzyx
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Activity: 490
Merit: 250


I don't really come from outer space.


View Profile
February 06, 2014, 03:16:55 AM
 #30157



If we can recast a genesis block every 20th block as part of the routine operation of the NXT blockchain, we have accomplished something very, very special - a self limiting blockchain that grows very slowly.
A blockchain needs to be as long as longest possible fork, at least. I don't know, half a day? Definitely not 20 blocks. 

1440 blocks is the limit for blockchain reorganization if I'm remembering correctly.  So it would have to be just beyond there.


"An awful lot of code is being written ... in languages that aren't very good by people who don't know what they're doing." -- Barbara Liskov
MarvellousMutant
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 39
Merit: 0


View Profile
February 06, 2014, 03:17:39 AM
 #30158

On the Blockchain Pruning:

Why dont we implement a Finite Blockchain?
This has been discussed for bitcoin for a longer time and one of the biggest hurdle was to implement the accounts tree as bitcoins can be saved offline.
This is not hte case for NXT, perhaps it could be used to solve our problem.

Here is the paper: http://www.bitfreak.info/files/pp2p-ccmbc-rev1.pdf
opticalcarrier
Full Member
***
Offline Offline

Activity: 238
Merit: 100



View Profile
February 06, 2014, 03:17:43 AM
 #30159

A blockchain needs to be as long as longest possible fork, at least. I don't know, half a day? Definitely not 20 blocks.  

Agreed - so a new "genesis" block would have to be the balance of all accounts from before the last possible "re-org" point.

BTW - said "genesis" block is going to become "huge" in the future (if we had one million accounts then surely we are talking 200-300 MB which you are not very likely to be able to be sending to nodes very quickly - or are we working on some sort of special format to "compress" a genesis block?).

Although it could be divisive it might also be worth "pruning" tiny balance accounts (ones with less than or equal to the minimum fee say) and having those as "fee rewards" for the construction of the new genesis block (this gives some added incentive to create it rather than just to "skip your turn" because of the "work involved").


Very interesting idea on the fees thing to prune small accounts. Do they lose their aliases too though, along with public key?  But I think as long as its a network requirement for the next block to be a Genesis block then somebody will forge it.  But it would be nice for a little pay off
CIYAM
Legendary
*
Offline Offline

Activity: 1890
Merit: 1003


Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer


View Profile WWW
February 06, 2014, 03:19:44 AM
 #30160

A balance sheet is not something that needs to be forged. Every node should do it by itself - it has all available data.  
The only thing they should do is send the hash of deterministically-generated balance sheet after block x. The version with most NXT behind it becomes the official one.  

Ah yes - of course - thanks (should have realised this) so each and every (full) node will constantly be doing its own updating of a ledger and getting ready to "wipe out" the old history.

I guess the problem comes though in what do you send a brand new node who has no block chain (or do they need to download one from the last "checkpoint")?

With CIYAM anyone can create 100% generated C++ web applications in literally minutes.

GPG Public Key | 1ciyam3htJit1feGa26p2wQ4aw6KFTejU
Pages: « 1 ... 1458 1459 1460 1461 1462 1463 1464 1465 1466 1467 1468 1469 1470 1471 1472 1473 1474 1475 1476 1477 1478 1479 1480 1481 1482 1483 1484 1485 1486 1487 1488 1489 1490 1491 1492 1493 1494 1495 1496 1497 1498 1499 1500 1501 1502 1503 1504 1505 1506 1507 [1508] 1509 1510 1511 1512 1513 1514 1515 1516 1517 1518 1519 1520 1521 1522 1523 1524 1525 1526 1527 1528 1529 1530 1531 1532 1533 1534 1535 1536 1537 1538 1539 1540 1541 1542 1543 1544 1545 1546 1547 1548 1549 1550 1551 1552 1553 1554 1555 1556 1557 1558 ... 2567 »
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Sponsored by , a Bitcoin-accepting VPN.
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!