NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[Damelon]

Assuming i can find backups of the source code I deleted and the magical cancerous pimpled nodecoin does come back. How exactly can it fail? If my servers get destroyed, somebody else can always make a new nodecoin as the source code of the current version is already out there.

Maybe we need to setup a NXT asset issuance committee? This way before anybody can issue a NXT asset, we make sure we get their home address, blood type, hell, we need to insist on DNA samples. Then we have to have a bunch of people who are psychics and can properly predict all futures assess whether a new asset type will be good or bad for NXT. After we form a committee to decide how to tell if something is good or bad for NXT.

Then and only after a thoroughly painful ordeal will we allow anybody to issue NXT assets.

Would that satisfy you?

James

Regardless of the whole NodeCoin discussion, this ís the heart of the problem with this discussion at all.

If Nxt has this possibility, it precludes the option to second guess it.

This coin is built on top of Nxt, and this function is there. Others may think of things we cannot imagine right now.

I posted this a few pages ago, but there is nó way we will be able to predict what will happen, because in Nxt everything affects everything. That is what it being a system means!

I find it a bit strange that James is being accused for doing what Nxt allows him to do. The fact whether this may or may not be ill advised is not the point.
The simple fact is that he does what is a fundamental possibility of Nxt, which is to add to it.

The discussion has focused on NodeCoin because that is what has been made now. Will we indeed have this same discussion with every single one of the hopefully hundreds of coins that will be created in the future?
Because that will not be possible. This is something that is there, and it's a given. I think it's a bit late to start having second thoughts about it when someone has worked literally weeks on something and has reported faithfully on what he has been doing.

It's not as if this was sprung on us suddenly.

[jl777]

James

P.S. If somebody wants to pay me to kill nodecoin all you have to do is pay the server costs.

If all you want is to reward people to run a node or server you can reward them Nxt which was created and set up to do so.

OK, I will use all the NXT I have and then give it all away to people for running their NXT node. Yes, thats a very good idea. I will send myself 100 million NXT and use that to fund this. Would that work?

James

Edit: I need evil-knievel's help to get the 100 million NXT out of thin air first, so dont hold your breath for this

[grandpa_seth]

I have an idea!

If nodecoin is so bad for NXT, then I will create the antinodecoin. yes, this coins will reward only the accounts that are never active. Accounts that never help the NXT network. Those are the accounts that will get the antinodecoins

We need something to battle the evil nodecoin and the coin anti-earned by people who never use NXT is clearly the answer.

Just think of all those antinodecoins silently accumulating toward the nodecoin armageddon. Sparks will fly, prices will go up and down. NXT will be vaporized. NXT will reappear. Mass confusion and chaos.

I will also release globalwarming coins and globalcooling coins. If the days temperature is higher than the historical average, everybody gets globalwarming coins. If it is cooler, people get globalcooling coins.

James

I like to see this side of you. You never showed your sense of humor before it is quite funny. BTW nodecoin to me is not "bad" for nxt. I think we are better off without it.

I'm sure we all want to end this discussion. Can some people who are pro nodecoin please state why James should continue with it and be specific.

BTW I think how you were able to get nodecoin to work was very clever and all by yourself, amazing.

[farl4web]

Crypto Review Completed, please read.  Thanks to Jesse James for completing with thorough review and BloodyRookie for reference.

From Jesse James:

"I spent some quality time reviewing the core crypto NXT relies on.  As part of my review I re-implemented the relevant algorithms https://gist.github.com/doctorevil/9521126 using a different approach in a different language to make sure I understood everything deeply.  Although the implementation NXT uses doesn't follow certain algorithm specifications to the letter, the deviations noted (motivated by simplicity and/or performance) seemed reasonable and in general nothing stuck out as a red flag.  There was one bug in the signature generation function (that NXT is aware of and currently working around) for which I've provided a patch (or more precisely tweaked BloodyRookie's proposed patch).  It should be should be safe for devs to incorporate this patch at their convenience.

Review: https://gist.github.com/doctorevil/9521116

Code: https://gist.github.com/doctorevil/9521126 "

Great job guys! 

[grandpa_seth]

Regardless of the whole NodeCoin discussion, this ís the heart of the problem with this discussion at all.

If Nxt has this possibility, it precludes the option to second guess it.

This coin is built on top of Nxt, and this function is there. Others may think of things we cannot imagine right now.

I posted this a few pages ago, but there is nó way we will be able to predict what will happen, because in Nxt everything affects everything. That is what it being a system means!

I find it a bit strange that James is being accused for doing what Nxt allows him to do. The fact whether this may or may not be ill advised is not the point.
The simple fact is that he does what is a fundamental possibility of Nxt, which is to add to it.

The discussion has focused on NodeCoin because that is what has been made now. Will we indeed have this same discussion with every single one of the hopefully hundreds of coins that will be created in the future?
Because that will not be possible. This is something that is there, and it's a given. I think it's a bit late to start having second thoughts about it when someone has worked literally weeks on something and has reported faithfully on what he has been doing.

It's not as if this was sprung on us suddenly.

I'm not jumping on this because it is the first coin on AE. It is because this directly affects forging. Nxt has to be secure before anything. Once forging is solved and all features
are implemented and all is stable, nobody is going to argue with anybody who introduces new coins through AE.

[Damelon]

I like to see this side of you. You never showed your sense of humor before it is quite funny. BTW nodecoin to me is not "bad" for nxt. I think we are better off without it.

I'm sure we all want to end this discussion. Can some people who are pro nodecoin please state why James should continue with it and be specific.

BTW I think how you were able to get nodecoin to work was very clever and all by yourself, amazing.

I will not state pro or against, because it is not the fundamental discussion.
If we are going to engage in that kind of discussion, we would need to do it for each and every coin someone wants to create.

And who would judge? Another committee? "The community"?
Which community? The one here on BCT? The one on nextcoin.org? The one on nxtcrypto? Reddit?

The fact is that the genie is out of the bottle and this isn't something you can "vote" on.

The discussion is not about whether or not a particular implementation of a feature is good or bad, but the fact that apparently we are now seeing what this particular feature does.

[jl777]

What about a TF coin?

It will be awarded to all the nodes that publish their IP address that enables transparent forging. Based on the nodecoin discussion, I am convinced this will kill TF. After all, anything that reinforces a certain behavior is sure to do the exact opposite.

James

Edit: Too late, I just issued TFcoin. TF is doomed!

[grandpa_seth]

I like to see this side of you. You never showed your sense of humor before it is quite funny. BTW nodecoin to me is not "bad" for nxt. I think we are better off without it.

I'm sure we all want to end this discussion. Can some people who are pro nodecoin please state why James should continue with it and be specific.

BTW I think how you were able to get nodecoin to work was very clever and all by yourself, amazing.

I will not state pro or against, because it is not the fundamental discussion.
If we are going to engage in that kind of discussion, we would need to do it for each and every coin someone wants to create.

And who would judge? Another committee? "The community"?
Which community? The one here on BCT? The one on nextcoin.org? The one on nxtcrypto? Reddit?

The fact is that the genie is out of the bottle and this isn't something you can "vote" on.

The discussion is not about whether or not a particular implementation of a feature is good or bad, but the fact that apparently we are now seeing what this particular feature does.

I myself only think I'd rather not have nodecoin. I'm not super against it. But others have said it will hurt or kill Nxt. Isn't it worth discussing if some believe that?

I've said all I can about this. I'll leave this discussion.

[bidji29]

I support Nodecoin and jl777 !

[Touque]

James

P.S. If somebody wants to pay me to kill nodecoin all you have to do is pay the server costs.

If all you want is to reward people to run a node or server you can reward them Nxt which was created and set up to do so.

OK, I will use all the NXT I have and then give it all away to people for running their NXT node. Yes, thats a very good idea. I will send myself 100 million NXT and use that to fund this. Would that work?

James

Edit: I need evil-knievel's help to get the 100 million NXT out of thin air first, so dont hold your breath for this

I understand. But you control some funds, right? We also have tech/infras committees to apply for funds, right?

[igmaca]

these are questions for which it would be nice to have clear and concise answers:

1) why is the forging mechanism insufficient for protecting the nxt network?

currently there are not decentralization

...
the transaction fees are still too damn high, forging rewards are way to low & come too slow for all but the richest Nxters.
...
In my opinion, you're better off dishing out smaller rewards at a faster pace. People are like lab rats who feel rewarded when they get a pellet. It would be better to get .001 NXT every couple of days than 10 NXT after many months. It is simple psychology. Almost every successful software "invention" these days is successful because it's addicting. Twitter, facebook, Angry Birds, Flappy Birds, Candy Crush, Farmville. All very successful and all very addicting. Give the people their pellets and they will be addicted and they will forge.

2) what behavior does the nodecoin encourage? is it possible to encourage this behavior through a modification of the forging mechanism?

yes with share fee group

I don't get your idea, or I get it. I don't know.
Instead of leasing forge power, you commit with your account to share fees among others in the same "share fee group" if you forge a node. You still try to forge a block on your own, but you commit to share the incentive with others if you are successful (with special conditions like committing to run the node for some time, ...). Could this be done with AT and would that make sense?

I really like this idea because your node still has to be online to be part of the shared group.
It retains the decentralisation and number of nodes.
Forging is a bit like bingo/lottery anyway rather than mining and it smooths out the impact of penalty and people pool hopping if the pool was based on a single node...
So generally in stead of buying a single big ticket you are offering to share your ticket and any winnings with lots of others and vice versa
Penalties would only affect the nodes in the shared pool an would not take huge chunks of NXT out of the forging balance in one go by taking a whole pool out.

currently there are very few transactions and therefore the fees for forging (1 nxt) are unattractive
so I think that node coin could short term until the number of transactions does not increase a very good solution


3) who will pay for nodecoins once they are mined? why will they pay for nodecoins?


lease active nodes for several services


4) the answer to #3 above, should also help to answer this question: does the existence of nodecoins dilute the value of 1 nxt?

i propose to mantein forging fees with share fee group and using nxt coins
and i propose lease active nodes using node coin

in the future if the transactions goes up forging fees will be more interesting to ensure the network

[wesleyh]

I should have local (trustless) signing online tomorrow (no password sent to the server). A big thank you to CFB, Antonios, BloodyRookie and Jaguar0625 for all their help with this

[Damelon]

I like to see this side of you. You never showed your sense of humor before it is quite funny. BTW nodecoin to me is not "bad" for nxt. I think we are better off without it.

I'm sure we all want to end this discussion. Can some people who are pro nodecoin please state why James should continue with it and be specific.

BTW I think how you were able to get nodecoin to work was very clever and all by yourself, amazing.

I will not state pro or against, because it is not the fundamental discussion.
If we are going to engage in that kind of discussion, we would need to do it for each and every coin someone wants to create.

And who would judge? Another committee? "The community"?
Which community? The one here on BCT? The one on nextcoin.org? The one on nxtcrypto? Reddit?

The fact is that the genie is out of the bottle and this isn't something you can "vote" on.

The discussion is not about whether or not a particular implementation of a feature is good or bad, but the fact that apparently we are now seeing what this particular feature does.

I myself only think I'd rather not have nodecoin. I'm not super against it. But others have said it will hurt or kill Nxt. Isn't it worth discussing if some believe that?

I've said all I can about this. I'll leave this discussion.

I want to make clear I am not attacking you or anyone.
I just am trying to clear up the discussion by getting it off the specific issue of "NodeCoin".
This seems to be far wider than one specific instance.
So, is this a Pandora's Box?

That's clearly not the point. The problem is trying to solve this issue in this way creates all kinds of other potential issues. Nodecoin is not building an asset on top of the AE, its hacking functionality in sideways that should be a part of the core implementation using the nxt unit as a fee. James is not part of the core team. JP and CfB(for now) are. They are all capable and intelligent along with many others here. Some we should be discussing how to implement a proper node support structure together. Everyone wants to talk about it. So how about everyone put their heads together and figure out the RIGHT way to have a robust network of reliable nodes.

I repeat my question about Pandora's Box

[farl4web]

James is a beast with great ideas and implementation. But our opinions are not trolling. If you like nodecoin please explain to me why its good for Nxt. I'd love to change my mind if it is.

James is one of the few here actively developing his ideas.  I support people who produce.

The goal of nodecoin is to offer a simple reward for running a node and supporting the network.  As issuer, James is free to issue the asset as he sees fit.  As with any asset in AE, there is no intrinsic value.  Only time will tell if nodecoins will have any real market value...  if there is no market, then it becomes one of (possibly) hundreds of worthless assets listed in AE.  

nodecoin is an experiment, and will live or die (as any other asset) on its own with no harm to NXT.

+ 1

Now we have no rewards for the guys running nodes, then we have nodecoin, don't worry about it. If it worth nothing in the end, no harm is done. Love the ideas of James. We need to get a lot of nodes out there and Peerexplorer is not always filled with enough cashes.

[wesleyh]

Can anyone tell me why I get nodecoin even though I'm not running the nodecoin script?

[mcjavar]

I should have local (trustless) signing online tomorrow (no password sent to the server). A big thank you to CFB, Antonios, BloodyRookie and Jaguar0625 for all their help with this

What does this mean for us?

[jl777]

Will we indeed have this same discussion with every single one of the hopefully hundreds of coins that will be created in the future?

Hey...  watch it there now...  you might be making too much sense there fella!!!  

That's clearly not the point. The problem is trying to solve this issue in this way creates all kinds of other potential issues. Nodecoin is not building an asset on top of the AE, its hacking functionality in sideways that should be a part of the core implementation using the nxt unit as a fee. James is not part of the core team. JP and CfB(for now) are. They are all capable and intelligent along with many others here. Some we should be discussing how to implement a proper node support structure together. Everyone wants to talk about it. So how about everyone put their heads together and figure out the RIGHT way to have a robust network of reliable nodes.

TF will do this, but now we have to worry about TFcoin. It will actually reward people who support TF by publishing their IP addresses.

Now that I have realized I can destroy anything by creating a NXT asset that reinforces the behavior of that anything, nothing is safe anymore. All the desired actions will automatically get tokens of appreciation from a robot. That in turn will corrupt and dilute the essence of the very fabric of the universe. I think this will end up creating a quantum computer! This is horrible hacking at its highest level!

James

[martismartis]

Guys, calm down. Where is the warranty, that some James II will not create nodecoin II? Who will stop this? James had an idea, he worked on it, we see it works in AE, so let things happen. Time and market will show, it was good idea or bad. It cost nothing today to make a xxxcoin as asset (ok James, time is money and you work is money). These last days i see a lot of killing of new ideas, that's worry me the most. We are decentralized (I think), source is open, everybody is free to do what they think they can do good. Don;t kill motivation and initiative and move on.

That's my 2 NXT. Sorry for english.

[rickyjames]

nodecoin is a response to the need for people to get regular and predictable feedback for running a NXT node. It satisfies this requirement. As to what all the other side effects it creates, I am just a simple C programmer and when you start extrapolating things like the behaviors of large groups of people, well, I admit I cannot predict. AUR proves this.

Also, notice that if trying to boost the NXT network via nodecoin purchases doesnt work, what have we lost? Without nodecoin, there wouldnt even be that option. nodecoin price fluctuations do not impact NXT. nodecoin is not NXT. nodecoin is a NXT asset. If NXT relies on nodecoin for all of its network infrastructure incentive and nodecoin fails, then where are we? I think we would be where we are now, without nodecoin.

James

There's a saying that when you're up to your ass in alligators, it's hard to remember that you originally intended to drain the swamp.   That's what we've got here.  

The original problem is that everybody eventually comes to the realization that forging NXT isn't getting them rich like they expected Bitcoin mining would do, in fact, if they've got under 2000 NXT, they probably won't even mine a single block in a year (if all NXT owners had their client open and were forging too).   This is a disappointment and demotivator to them, and understandably so.  But hey, that what PoS as implemented by NXT is.  Everybody gets the same ROI / interest rate on their stake, and if you ain't got much stake, your equal share of the pie is gonna be really, really small.  

The original BCNext (and I believe correct) solution to the problem is to realize that NXT doesn't need super expensive computers to keep the node network going, that people will keep their clients open and bear the minimal expense as an altruistic item on their part, that instead of profit motive to run NXT we have community spirit.

Some people feel that a bigger motive / incentive is needed.  This is very noble and I am not cutting them down.  But I come back to my previously stated BCNext's First Law - For every attempt to create a new incentive in the zero-sum NXT system, an equal and opposite disincentive is created somewhere else in that system.  

Money in NXT is not created out of thin air every few minutes like it is in BCT.  There is only so much and if it goes into one person's pocket, it came out of somebody else's pocket.

So here's the bottom line question.  If nodecoin is created as a new source of value to motivate people to support the NXT network, WHOSE POCKET DID THIS VALUE COME FROM IN THE FORM OF NXT?

[opticalcarrier]

What about a TF coin?

It will be awarded to all the nodes that publish their IP address that enables transparent forging. Based on the nodecoin discussion, I am convinced this will kill TF. After all, anything that reinforces a certain behavior is sure to do the exact opposite.

James

Edit: Too late, I just issued TFcoin. TF is doomed!

can you issue an emulecoin while youre at it?