NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[jl777]

** Big News **

Nxt (along with Peercoin) will be one of two official currencies at Trekcon Springfield:

http://www.trekconspringfield.com/

We will have access to quiet a bit of media as well as tie-ins with Star Trek actors at the event. I will be working with local companies prior to the event to help support Nxt.  More details to come, still working on the logistics.  Here's a video we put out when we added Peercoin:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89YI6_6Aw2E


Yes, that's me in the video. The guys are already lining up interviews with local tv and radio stations, we'll also be able to take part in that promotion.

Made me laugh, as I have been talking with James about a "Federation of Gateways" today.

OK, this is my cue to update status of community gateways. Keep in mind I am talking about the first step along the path toward fully automated DAC solution. No need to wait for that if we can get a more traditional solution in the meantime.

I have a job offer out to a fulltime dev who will help code my ideas, both crazy and not so crazy. The first task is to create reference code for automated gateways and clients along the lines of my post about this yesterday.

In parallel, I am working with traditional gateway providers to create a federation of gateways that users can choose between. We will create requirements to be part of the gateway and the community will need to help do the due diligence on each of the gateways as I have little expertise in data center security, etc.

NXT community gateway federation requirements:

A) we need source code of the automated gateway functionality, this way the smart guys can make sure that all the error cases are properly handled and if a database is used, that proper database techniques are used, etc. It is expected that all the federation members will work together to create best practices for deposit/withdrawal handling. No more bter funny business!

B) There needs to be an automatically updated balance of Assets issued and a corresponding account that can be checked using blockchain.info, trust but verify. This ensures that there is 100% backing of all the Assets issued into AE and people can trade it without worrying about fractional reserve.

C) There needs to be a publicly posted information about any and all fees charged. There will also be the option of the gateway provider to put up a bond against deposit flight risk. This allows even gateways run by an unknown newbie to have a chance, especially if they put up a bond big enough to cover all their deposits. Any reductions in bond will require enough time for adjustments to be made by holders of gateway's assets. [I need a place to host this information and also someone to keep it updated, maybe nxtcrpto.org?]

D) There needs to be an agreement to exchange gateway assets of the same denomination with the community asset at 1:1, this is something that ripple never achieved and it fragments the trading for all gateways to this day. By pooling all assets for the same thing, it reduces confusion for the user and also creates more liquidity and tighter spreads. Imagine if the highest bid and lowest ask for DOGE was always available within AE!

D) Anything else that is missing?

I cannot stress how important it is that we unite all the Assets for the same crypto, otherwise it will be a giant confusing mess. In ripple right now, anybody can issue anything, but there are no standards or requirements to be able to do this. Buyer beware. I am hopeful that each federation gateway will either start with enough credibility or be able to find a sponsor/partner that will be able to put up a big enough bond to allow for true interchangeability among all Assets for the same thing.

Getting the tech to achieve this is actually not new, having the community that can achieve freely interchangeable Assets among a federation of gateways, that is what is new here.

James

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[pinarello]

man Bter is just hovering right under .00008

cmon lets break through before full moon friday

yep at least one whale is dumping below actual sell... I wonder why what does he get out of this?

[Damelon]

I hear the people in this topic have decided to switch to a 0.1 Nxt fee?  I've done some math and that would be only be enough to allow use to break even if we had ~50 forgers at a time.  Point is, it's way too low.

Fee structure proposal
0.4% transaction fee
0.05 Nxt per message
30 Nxt per alias registration

Didn't want to clog up this forum with a long post plus it would be really nice if we could start using other forums instead of everything in one place, no matter how loosely related.

Point is, here's the math and reasoning to back this up:
https://forums.nxtcrypto.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=785

Please go comment and let me know what you think about these numbers!

Just saw you math, but you make one wrong assumption and that is that transactions stay as they are now.

This is because there isn't anything else to DO with Nxt at the moment than trade on exchanges or between users, buy aliases and send messages (not data yet)

If you want a fair comparison, you would need to do for instance a calculation on a situation where you get a 5 time increase and 10 x increase in transactions.

I agree that alias registration could be more expensive. That's a fair proposal. BUT, remember, once aliases can be traded (as they were supposed to be, don't know if that is still on the cards. Devs?) then you will have a run on aliases now and again. This means a bidding war, which will skyrocket fees for a while, making the average fees much higher.

The main flaw, however, is that you take the status quo as the basis, where most proponents of the lower fee take a growth model as the basis.

Could you do some more calculations? I'm willing to be won over, but it will take cold math to prove me wrong

[brooklynbtc]

Hey NXT'ers - the InsideBitcoin was quite a gratifying experience, I am quite happy for the coincidence that it happened here ein Berlin!

I can only reccomend to go whenever you can get there - Amsterdam, Texas try to go there! I had the networking pass for 114Euro, I really did not care very much for the Bitcoin talks anyway, but I had a number of extremely good conversations.
Paul Snow from Texas Bitcoin Association is a very eloquent and open minded person, I really enjoyed discussing monetary ideas with him.

Another interesting topic that came up was with Frank Tornatore from Cryptoventures, who was very much interested in using coloured coins as a method for casinos in Macao to issue to their mostly chinese customers.


What would you guys think about having a project to provide using some nxt asset 'RED' or 'BLUE' that a casino could issue as gambling chips for their customers?


And could the casino company take the open source nxt code, and start their own blockchain for their customers only?

anyone can take the source code, but without the nodes to secure the network it would be vulnerable. Better making a colored coin on top of NXT, installing a vending machine, or better yet, a cashier teller in the casino. You give your chips, transfer them to your brain wallet and when you go to Vegas! You can pull all your money out and the PRC is no wiser!!

seriously I read that (chinese) people go to the Wynn in Macau, buy chips, take the chips home, then when they are in the US they go to vegas and cash in the chips at Wynn's for USD and stash it in a secret account. YAY Capital Controls!

[jl777]

I hear the people in this topic have decided to switch to a 0.1 Nxt fee?  I've done some math and that would be only be enough to allow use to break even if we had ~50 forgers at a time.  Point is, it's way too low.

Fee structure proposal
0.4% transaction fee
0.05 Nxt per message
30 Nxt per alias registration

Didn't want to clog up this forum with a long post plus it would be really nice if we could start using other forums instead of everything in one place, no matter how loosely related.

Point is, here's the math and reasoning to back this up:
https://forums.nxtcrypto.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=785

Please go comment and let me know what you think about these numbers!

You seem to have assumed that lowering the transaction cost by 90% will increase the number of transactions by 0%???

I think you need to rethink your analysis and put in a more realistic increase in transactions estimate. Elasticity of price demand definitely applies here. Less is more.

It is quite possible to get a nonlinear increase in demand, so we could get 30 times the volume with 10% from each or a tripling of forging revenues by reducing the transaction costs. clearly people will not donate anywhere as much using the tipbot at 1 NXT, we would get literally 100 times the tips by reducing costs 90%.

Also, imagine that the NXT community will be able to come up with ways to create the demand and usage to saturate 1000TPS. Also imagine the fee goes to a paltry .01 NXT per transaction. How much NXT are we forging per block under that scenario? How does it compare to now?

Why are you complaining?

[nexern]

So, I am not so crazy to believe that we can get fully trustless gateways and even automated DACs that can do cross chain operations. I wish you were there last week. I guess I should have reiterated that I got the idea about indistinguishability obsfucators from Vitalik butern's reddit page. I'm not smart enough to understand the maths, but I am smart enough to recognize the potentials of new algos.

you are saying right james, this stuff will come, no doubt about it and it is for sure not crazy to anticipate exactly this what you wrote above.
i anticipate even more. we will see chainable, static serverside contracts, triggered by conditionals and acting like a logic swarm shifting immense data around
and on the other side distributed applications, moveable and freezable, preserving content within the block/storage chain, serving instant user demands.
all within the next two years.   

[CoinBuzz]

Why nobody active on: http://www.reddit.com/r/nxt

Are you serious?

I took control of the subreddit on 2. February and made the design on 3. February.

It's only 10 days since then and there are already 175 subscriptions and currently 16 NXTers are online. Alone in this month we got 1400 uniques and over 8000 pageviews (in just 10 days!).

And this without ANY promotion or marketing effort. (This will come ones Nxt has a nice and finished client and a good starter website)

sorry, didnt know that it thats new. Also it is not mentioned on this topic first post.

tnx anyway.

[jl777]

Hey NXT'ers - the InsideBitcoin was quite a gratifying experience, I am quite happy for the coincidence that it happened here ein Berlin!

I can only reccomend to go whenever you can get there - Amsterdam, Texas try to go there! I had the networking pass for 114Euro, I really did not care very much for the Bitcoin talks anyway, but I had a number of extremely good conversations.
Paul Snow from Texas Bitcoin Association is a very eloquent and open minded person, I really enjoyed discussing monetary ideas with him.

Another interesting topic that came up was with Frank Tornatore from Cryptoventures, who was very much interested in using coloured coins as a method for casinos in Macao to issue to their mostly chinese customers.


What would you guys think about having a project to provide using some nxt asset 'RED' or 'BLUE' that a casino could issue as gambling chips for their customers?


And could the casino company take the open source nxt code, and start their own blockchain for their customers only?

It would be better if a gateway provided such a service as an Asset within AE. This benefits from NXT infrastructure. Any one off NXT clone network would probably be too small and be subject to attack, especially if they have large amounts of chips.

I imagine there is a good business model for anybody that wants to offer a "colored coins" service. Eg, handle getting the funds in and out of NXT AE. This will be an excellent way for a gateway to monetize their expertise. I would imagine any real world business that is using NXT in this way would have no problems paying a customization fee plus ongoing fixed amount which will more than cover costs. You probably can even negotiate some sort of percentage split of fees.

The more ways we can figure out how companies can use NXT to make money, the better. The better funded the gateways become, the better for all of NXT.

James

[Passion_ltc]

Why nobody active on: http://www.reddit.com/r/nxt

Are you serious?

I took control of the subreddit on 2. February and made the design on 3. February.

It's only 10 days since then and there are already 175 subscriptions and currently 16 NXTers are online. Alone in this month we got 1400 uniques and over 8000 pageviews (in just 10 days!).

And this without ANY promotion or marketing effort. (This will come ones Nxt has a nice and finished client and a good starter website)

https://i.imgur.com/2unArpB.jpg

sorry, didnt know that it thats new. Also it is not mentioned on this topic first post.

tnx anyway.

No problem dude. Please promote it.

[ChuckOne]

It's time for another update:

   46.19.137.116      46.19.137.116      15'928'753      3'353'176 B      438'860 B      NRS (0.7.5) @ NCC-1701-D

[l8orre]

Hey NXT'ers - the InsideBitcoin was quite a gratifying experience, I am quite happy for the coincidence that it happened here ein Berlin!

I can only reccomend to go whenever you can get there - Amsterdam, Texas try to go there! I had the networking pass for 114Euro, I really did not care very much for the Bitcoin talks anyway, but I had a number of extremely good conversations.
Paul Snow from Texas Bitcoin Association is a very eloquent and open minded person, I really enjoyed discussing monetary ideas with him.

Another interesting topic that came up was with Frank Tornatore from Cryptoventures, who was very much interested in using coloured coins as a method for casinos in Macao to issue to their mostly chinese customers.


What would you guys think about having a project to provide using some nxt asset 'RED' or 'BLUE' that a casino could issue as gambling chips for their customers?


And could the casino company take the open source nxt code, and start their own blockchain for their customers only?

anyone can take the source code, but without the nodes to secure the network it would be vulnerable. Better making a colored coin on top of NXT, installing a vending machine, or better yet, a cashier teller in the casino. You give your chips, transfer them to your brain wallet and when you go to Vegas! You can pull all your money out and the PRC is no wiser!!

seriously I read that (chinese) people go to the Wynn in Macau, buy chips, take the chips home, then when they are in the US they go to vegas and cash in the chips at Wynn's for USD and stash it in a secret account. YAY Capital Controls!

Yeh - on top of the current nxt blockchain would always be a good start of course. If it was a big company though, they could just provide a few hundred nodes, and they could be happy - their own blockchain for their own use. Why not?

Or maybe as a test, on top of nxt blockchain for starters. On the other hand, if it was a whole souvereign country - taking the nxt source code and creating an extray blockchain for that would certainly be justified by the sheer magnitude of it.

There were some rumours on InsideBitcoin that ICELAND actually was planning to launch their own cryptocurrency in a couple of weeks! IF that happens - wow !

[wesleyh]

Users of the javascript client will get a JSON notification when the deadline changes. Client developers using the Java API directly can register a listener to receive such notifications, just like it is done in User.java:

Do you mean you will add some sort of HTML5 push notification support to the browser? That would be great!

http://html5hacks.com/blog/2013/04/21/push-notifications-to-the-browser-with-server-sent-events/

I mean, the way the current javascript client is doing it, whatever this technology is called. I didn't plan to touch that part myself, I am not familiar with HTML5 push.

How does your client currently work, only by making javascript calls to the http api? Is it just a bunch of html and javascript files that need to be in a directory served by jetty? Because I am considering switching to embedding jetty in 0.8 or later, but of course need to plan how to accommodate your client.

The current NRS is just polling continuously via javascript, that's different from HTML5 push, where there is 1 open connection and the server (jetty) pushes to the client.

Anyway, my client uses the official API via ajax calls, so yes, it's just bunch of HTML and JS files that need to be in a directory served by jetty.

When I have some more bugs ironed out and some more functionality added, I'll send you a download link to try it.

[SkillRoad]

Users of the javascript client will get a JSON notification when the deadline changes. Client developers using the Java API directly can register a listener to receive such notifications, just like it is done in User.java:

Do you mean you will add some sort of HTML5 push notification support to the browser? That would be great!

http://html5hacks.com/blog/2013/04/21/push-notifications-to-the-browser-with-server-sent-events/

I mean, the way the current javascript client is doing it, whatever this technology is called. I didn't plan to touch that part myself, I am not familiar with HTML5 push.

How does your client currently work, only by making javascript calls to the http api? Is it just a bunch of html and javascript files that need to be in a directory served by jetty? Because I am considering switching to embedding jetty in 0.8 or later, but of course need to plan how to accommodate your client.

The current NRS is just polling continuously via javascript, that's different from HTML5 push, where there is 1 open connection and the server (jetty) pushes to the client.

Anyway, my client uses the official API via ajax calls, so yes, it's just bunch of HTML and JS files that need to be in a directory served by jetty.

When I have some more bugs ironed out and some more functionality added, I'll send you a download link to try it.

Your client is a wonderful

[jl777]

So, I am not so crazy to believe that we can get fully trustless gateways and even automated DACs that can do cross chain operations. I wish you were there last week. I guess I should have reiterated that I got the idea about indistinguishability obsfucators from Vitalik butern's reddit page. I'm not smart enough to understand the maths, but I am smart enough to recognize the potentials of new algos.

you are saying right james, this stuff will come, no doubt about it and it is for sure not crazy to anticipate exactly this what you wrote above.
i anticipate even more. we will see chainable, static serverside contracts, triggered by conditionals and acting like a logic swarm shifting immense data around
and on the other side distributed applications, moveable and freezable, preserving content within the block/storage chain, serving instant user demands.
all within the next two years.  

I didnt actually post all the things I was thinking of, since there was such hostility to the "obvious" things.
Here is one. How about a trustless pizza delivery DAC! Why not? As long as there is a verifiable PoP (proof of pizza) on a dominos.com that gets a txid into the NXT blockchain, we can send NXT and pizza arrives, totally automatically.

This is kind of the possibility I was thinking of when I meant using the NXT blockchain to secure off blockchain actions. In this day and age, what real world item does not have an online purchase mechanism? Any and all such things should be able to be made into a NXTplugin.

James

Edit: Marketers think about the potential of adding automated DAC for an online website. We get the first one, everyone who is hungry orders pizza, orders go through the roof, all the other pizza vendors will want their NXTplugin. Hey, another idea for a company, one that creates these customized plugins.

[l8orre]

Hey NXT'ers - the InsideBitcoin was quite a gratifying experience, I am quite happy for the coincidence that it happened here ein Berlin!

I can only reccomend to go whenever you can get there - Amsterdam, Texas try to go there! I had the networking pass for 114Euro, I really did not care very much for the Bitcoin talks anyway, but I had a number of extremely good conversations.
Paul Snow from Texas Bitcoin Association is a very eloquent and open minded person, I really enjoyed discussing monetary ideas with him.

Another interesting topic that came up was with Frank Tornatore from Cryptoventures, who was very much interested in using coloured coins as a method for casinos in Macao to issue to their mostly chinese customers.


What would you guys think about having a project to provide using some nxt asset 'RED' or 'BLUE' that a casino could issue as gambling chips for their customers?


And could the casino company take the open source nxt code, and start their own blockchain for their customers only?

It would be better if a gateway provided such a service as an Asset within AE. This benefits from NXT infrastructure. Any one off NXT clone network would probably be too small and be subject to attack, especially if they have large amounts of chips.

I imagine there is a good business model for anybody that wants to offer a "colored coins" service. Eg, handle getting the funds in and out of NXT AE. This will be an excellent way for a gateway to monetize their expertise. I would imagine any real world business that is using NXT in this way would have no problems paying a customization fee plus ongoing fixed amount which will more than cover costs. You probably can even negotiate some sort of percentage split of fees.

The more ways we can figure out how companies can use NXT to make money, the better. The better funded the gateways become, the better for all of NXT.

James

Yes, for a casino company, the existing blockchain would probably be best. They would not have to invest in any node backbone infrastructure, and couls just use the existing one.

One concern they WILL have will be though, that they must be sure that if they issue 1000 'RED' chips for $1000, that when the customer comes back 4 weeks later they don't have to pay $2000 to redeem their 1000 'RED'.

That would break that application model for them. So if people started trading casino chips in an 'off label use', that would be detrimental for nxt.

On the other hand, it is up to the casino company how many $ to pay for the 'RED' coins, even if the price in NXT would be floating...

[jl777]

Hey NXT'ers - the InsideBitcoin was quite a gratifying experience, I am quite happy for the coincidence that it happened here ein Berlin!

I can only reccomend to go whenever you can get there - Amsterdam, Texas try to go there! I had the networking pass for 114Euro, I really did not care very much for the Bitcoin talks anyway, but I had a number of extremely good conversations.
Paul Snow from Texas Bitcoin Association is a very eloquent and open minded person, I really enjoyed discussing monetary ideas with him.

Another interesting topic that came up was with Frank Tornatore from Cryptoventures, who was very much interested in using coloured coins as a method for casinos in Macao to issue to their mostly chinese customers.


What would you guys think about having a project to provide using some nxt asset 'RED' or 'BLUE' that a casino could issue as gambling chips for their customers?


And could the casino company take the open source nxt code, and start their own blockchain for their customers only?

It would be better if a gateway provided such a service as an Asset within AE. This benefits from NXT infrastructure. Any one off NXT clone network would probably be too small and be subject to attack, especially if they have large amounts of chips.

I imagine there is a good business model for anybody that wants to offer a "colored coins" service. Eg, handle getting the funds in and out of NXT AE. This will be an excellent way for a gateway to monetize their expertise. I would imagine any real world business that is using NXT in this way would have no problems paying a customization fee plus ongoing fixed amount which will more than cover costs. You probably can even negotiate some sort of percentage split of fees.

The more ways we can figure out how companies can use NXT to make money, the better. The better funded the gateways become, the better for all of NXT.

James

Yes, for a casino company, the existing blockchain would probably be best. They would not have to invest in any node backbone infrastructure, and couls just use the existing one.

One concern they WILL have will be though, that they must be sure that if they issue 1000 'RED' chips for $1000, that when the customer comes back 4 weeks later they don't have to pay $2000 to redeem their 1000 'RED'.

That would break that application model for them. So if people started trading casino chips in an 'off label use', that would be detrimental for nxt.

On the other hand, it is up to the casino company how many $ to pay for the 'RED' coins, even if the price in NXT would be floating...

This ties in exactly with what BCNext was saying, issuing coins whose value is constant. The casino would issue $100 chips. Any deposit/withdrawal would convert the fiat deposit into NXT into casino chips, at current market prices for NXT. As long as there is a liquid market for NXT against everything, this will work beautifully. This is why it is so important to unify all the Assets that are for the same thing. That creates the most liquid market and tighest spreads

We also WANT big companies and small countries to create NXT nodes. THAT is what BCNext was saying!!!

The people that are using NXT (directly and mostly indirectly) are the ones that are motivated to add nodes and thus securing the network. At any given time the NXT network + new nodes will always be more secure than just "new nodes", so the rational thing is for all new NXT adopters to add to the existing NXT network.

Our marketing must be VERY clear on this point!!!

James

[xyzzyx]

I hear the people in this topic have decided to switch to a 0.1 Nxt fee?  I've done some math and that would be only be enough to allow use to break even if we had ~50 forgers at a time.  Point is, it's way too low.

Fee structure proposal
0.4% transaction fee
0.05 Nxt per message
30 Nxt per alias registration

Didn't want to clog up this forum with a long post plus it would be really nice if we could start using other forums instead of everything in one place, no matter how loosely related.

Point is, here's the math and reasoning to back this up:
https://forums.nxtcrypto.org/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=785

Please go comment and let me know what you think about these numbers!

'

impossible. system is not designed to work this way. nightmare. give it up.

I'm starting to rethink my .1 fee vote, at least until client, AE, and coin trading are implemented and we are hitting at least BTC level of volume.

Suck it up, pay the 5 cents.

I view the fee as a blockchain spam deterrent, any possible ROI is secondary IMHO.  We don't have any major activity on the blockchain at the moment.  All is relatively quiet, but that will change as services are added and merchants begin to use NXT for payment.  After only a few short months of very little activity the full blockchain is already over 50 megs on disk.

I think the fee should only be changed if the price of NXT goes up significantly.  My 0.25 NXT minimum fee vote was based on the thought of 1 NXT going to the stable range of $0.15 to ~$0.30 US in the next six months.

  

[TwinWinNerD]

With our asset exchange would it be possible to issue an asset like a "buck". Where for each buck, the issure holds 1 USD. I know that a fiat gateway has some very serious limitations, but if the issuer only holds USD (and someone even verifies that) and it is not really possible to redeem those "bucks", then this would be a nice way of introducing a shorting instrument. The price of 1 buck would be always near 1 real dollar because of arbitrage.

Possible?

[opticalcarrier]

Who wants to use real live SSL certificates with NRS?  Instructions on creating and using (with NRS's Jetty) a self-signed certificate, or requesting and using a CA-signed certificate (for NRS's Jetty) are in the new Wiki How-to guide
http://wiki.nxtcrypto.org/wiki/How-To:UseSslCerts

[opticalcarrier]

I view the fee as a blockchain spam deterrent, any possible ROI is secondary IMHO.  We don't have any major activity on the blockchain at the moment.  All is relatively quiet, but that will change as services are added and merchants begin to use NXT for payment.  After only a few short months of very little activity the full blockchain is already over 50 megs on disk.

I think the fee should only be changed if the price of NXT goes up significantly.  My 0.25 NXT minimum fee vote was based on the thought of 1 NXT going to the stable range of $0.15 to ~$0.30 cents US in the next six months.

I still say trying to tie the fee to some FIAT is the wrong direction.  Ill say it again - a transactions's fee should be tied to its byte size on the blockchain.  So lets say a NXT transfer is 128bytes, and its fee is .1NXT, so then an AM or alias transaction of size 256bytes should then cost .2NXT, and other transaction types follow the same method of fee determination.  We would determine a "base" transaction that is the smallest possible transaction, and set the .1 NXT fee to it.  (or .01 or .05 or whatever the community decides) and then scale every other transaction's fee to be based on its size compared to the base one.
But no one likes my idea. 

This proposal will require a bit more code; but for the moment I think a straight .1 NXT for all works, as it will encourage more use for now.