NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information

[morigu777]

BTC38 is asking about which coin to add next on their exchange. Please take a few minutes to let them know about Nxt:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=501963.msg5525645#msg5525645

Don't forget to vote on what should btc38 add

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[igmaca]

More I think about Pooled Forging, more I don't like it. Does anyone have any ideas where this could lead to? Won't we face the same problem as Bitcoin (GHash)?

I put refactoring on hold until the community decides that it's safe for Nxt.

Instead of leasing forge power or Pooled Forging , you commit with your account to share fees among others in the same "share fee group" if you forge a node. You still try to forge a block on your own, but you commit to share the incentive with others if you are successful (with special conditions like committing to run the node for some time, ...).

TEXT

Why do you always overwhelm the community with so much text?

And why do you post my text

I don't get your idea, or I get it. I don't know.

Instead of leasing forge power, you commit with your account to share fees among others in the same "share fee group" if you forge a node. You still try to forge a block on your own, but you commit to share the incentive with others if you are successful (with special conditions like committing to run the node for some time, ...). Could this be done with AT and would that make sense?

sorry  , because in my humble opinion all the explanation resolves this

http://bitcoinmagazine.com/10829/impossible-trinity-security-environment-protection-decentralization/

.....

Here I propose a ternary paradox, that the natures of decentralization, security and environment protection constitute an impossible trinity. (Graph 2) A crypto-currency which is both environmentally-friendly and secured would definitely need to be centralized, like PPcoin, Nextcoin and Ripple. These coins either contain aspects of centralized structure, or their decentralized structure is not sustainable, with a Paypal-like centralized verification mechanism. A crypto-currency which is both environmentally-friendly and decentralized would be unsecured, like P2P currencies of ‘one-IP-address-one-vote,’ which are already excluded by Satoshi. He believed that if the majority were based on ‘one-IP-address-one-vote,’ it could be subverted by anyone able to allocate many IPs.5 If one designs a secured decentralized currency, it must come with the cost of consuming energy and calculation power. PoW is the first solution to construct a verification system in the form of decentralization, and will probably be the only one.


with share fee pools this not occurs.

Extremely decentralized network (in the exemple 30.000 Nodes but in reality will be many more) and therefore very secure network
Small accounts motivated to participate in forging (In the exemple 100 Nxt account is forging every day not every 10 year)
rich and poor have the same chance to forge because everybody forge everyday!!!!

[brooklynbtc]

More I think about Pooled Forging, more I don't like it. Does anyone have any ideas where this could lead to? Won't we face the same problem as Bitcoin (GHash)?

I put refactoring on hold until the community decides that it's safe for Nxt.

As long as the big account holders dont pool their forging, it seems LIKE A SERIOUS RISK

However, if we had nodecoin, that would let the small accounts gain daily rewards that they can see. I think that is what most people want to see. We can then just put in bids in AE for nodecoin so that it is actually worth NXT

Instead of pooled forging, can you port over multisig? That is much more important than pooled forging, since there are alternate solutions for that. Multisig is pretty fundamental.

James

FIFY

[Come-from-Beyond]

What for?

Not everyone can process 1000 tps.

[abuelau]

More I think about Pooled Forging, more I don't like it. Does anyone have any ideas where this could lead to? Won't we face the same problem as Bitcoin (GHash)?

I put refactoring on hold until the community decides that it's safe for Nxt.

As long as the big account holders dont pool their forging, it seems LIKE A SERIOUS RISK

However, if we had nodecoin, that would let the small accounts gain daily rewards that they can see. I think that is what most people want to see. We can then just put in bids in AE for nodecoin so that it is actually worth NXT

Instead of pooled forging, can you port over multisig? That is much more important than pooled forging, since there are alternate solutions for that. Multisig is pretty fundamental.

James

FIFY

For the stakeholders pooliing their NXT: The API for forging rights should have this hardcoded. No account can have more than, say 10% of total forging power associated to it.

[abuelau]

What for?

Not everyone can process 1000 tps.

So the node that has the account that received forging power process more TX? Hmm... I hadn't though about this! This means that whoever is receiving forging power will spend more money with hardware that can handle all the TX. How do we know if this will ROI?

[bitcoinpaul]

What for?

Not everyone can process 1000 tps.

Before people shout "Nxt will never come to 1000 transactions per second in the next months/years", don't forget that Nxt is more than a currency. What people will do with it... we don't know yet.

[pinarello]

I personally consider wesleys client as standard client, when it is implemented in the code from J-L, and with the installer from mistafreeze this is the best we can get.

easy to use one click installation. AFAIK wesleyh and J-L are in the proces of integrating the client as we speak.

so lets put our effort to promote that.

Yes, that is what I am telling here for hours

+1 for Wesleys as standard. But this one click installation - is this open source and necessary?

It is open source and yes it is necessary for average Joe.

It is the only thing of holding us to go out and promote NXT properly

[brooklynbtc]

Hey guys! I'm allwelder's friend.
If you want the price of NXT pumping up,
please go to https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=501963.0 to vote NXT!!!
Www.btc38.com is the biggest Altcoins exchange in China.
It will be a great news to NXT if the site launch NXT!!!

Please!!!

Vote!

Expect the question; How are we going to implement NXT at BTC38?

Or have we learned from the past and made an instruction?

Whoever is our Chinese rep for NXT(I believe we have one right?) should work with opticalc or someone along those lines to help btc38 implement it if it comes to that.

Alright. We shouldn't let this be the second Mintpal disaster.

I think we will win this vote, so we have to prepare ourselves.

BTC38 is very important.

Mintpal wasn't a disaster. They proved they are jokes. They want to make money off the busiest coins, without doing any work to understand or support the community.
BTC38 seems a more serious site, but it's not like the bad old days of DGex and no one else. We have 5 markets trading NXT now, and we're doing fine.

Markets need products to buy. These exchanges NEED NXT.  

[ShroomsKit_Disgrace]

+1 for Wesleys as standard. But this one click installation - is this open source and necessary?

Yes, it is open source. Yes it is necessary for the ordinary user. Why don´t you like it?

Didn't test it.

It looks very sexy and is very easy. It installt everythinbg for you and opens up the webui. Very cool stuff. And it is only 0.5Mbyte.

Is this only Win?

Yes. Please check it out:

https://nextcoin.org/index.php/topic,1902.0.html

When the download is complete the installation wizard says "SHA-256 Checksums don't match!. Exiting the setup"

Is everybody having this problem? Thanks!

[Fatih87SK]

Hey guys! I'm allwelder's friend.
If you want the price of NXT pumping up,
please go to https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=501963.0 to vote NXT!!!
Www.btc38.com is the biggest Altcoins exchange in China.
It will be a great news to NXT if the site launch NXT!!!

Please!!!

Vote!

Expect the question; How are we going to implement NXT at BTC38?

Or have we learned from the past and made an instruction?

Whoever is our Chinese rep for NXT(I believe we have one right?) should work with opticalc or someone along those lines to help btc38 implement it if it comes to that.

Alright. We shouldn't let this be the second Mintpal disaster.

I think we will win this vote, so we have to prepare ourselves.

BTC38 is very important.

Mintpal wasn't a disaster. They proved they are jokes. They want to make money off the busiest coins, without doing any work to understand or support the community.
BTC38 seems a more serious site, but it's not like the bad old days of DGex and no one else. We have 5 markets trading NXT now, and we're doing fine.

Markets need products to buy. These exchanges NEED NXT.  

I know mate. We don't need Mintpal.

BTC38 on the other hand can give NXT a new boost.

[pinarello]

What for?

Not everyone can process 1000 tps.

please stop talking about 1000 tps, it is wishfull thinking from BCNext.

[Mistafreeze]

+1 for Wesleys as standard. But this one click installation - is this open source and necessary?

Yes, it is open source. Yes it is necessary for the ordinary user. Why don´t you like it?

Didn't test it.

It looks very sexy and is very easy. It installt everythinbg for you and opens up the webui. Very cool stuff. And it is only 0.5Mbyte.

Is this only Win?

Yes. Please check it out:

https://nextcoin.org/index.php/topic,1902.0.html

When the download is complete the installation wizard says "SHA-256 Checksums don't match!. Exiting the setup"

Is everybody having this problem? Thanks!

I just downloaded it from the link and tried it with no issue...maybe the zip got corrupted during the download?

Have you tried it again?

[pinarello]

Call for more java developers:

We need more developers to help work on the core! CFB is leaving in 1 month and we can't just have Jean-Luc do everything.

Is anyone here qualified to help?

First possible feature that could be done, (talked about it with CFB), is adding a category field to Arbitrary Messages. This will allow us a lot of extra functionality, like decentralized stores, reputation system and so on. It should not be too hard to add this extra field. Is anyone up to the job? Unfortunately I do not know java myself.

If others have suggestions for Nxt, please make Nxt improvement proposals. See here for more info: http://www.thenxtwiki.org/wiki/NIP:Nxt_Improvement_Proposals

It appears the NIP process is not yet complete, we need a contact person or a simple method of allowing anyone to add NIP's.

About NIP(Nxt_Improvement_Proposals) procedure, I think NXTtechdevfund Committee should decide.

Correct me if I'm wrong!

+1 this is pure DEV dicisions so they can make the procedure.

[bitcoinpaul]

What for?

Not everyone can process 1000 tps.

please stop talking about 1000 tps, it is wishfull thinking from BCNext.

Pinarello, Nxt as a decentralized platform could become huge, not (only) as a currency. Imagine, we have zero fees.

Ah, right...

We should activate the incentive and fee discussion again

[martismartis]

More I think about Pooled Forging, more I don't like it. Does anyone have any ideas where this could lead to? Won't we face the same problem as Bitcoin (GHash)?

I put refactoring on hold until the community decides that it's safe for Nxt.

Current NXT circulation:
1. Buy NXT from initial stakeholder.
2. Register alias / send message / issue asset and pay fee to stakeholder.
3. Goto :1

As I always said, forging was created for stakeholders. You (community) always said that "when we'll have more transactions, fees would be better distributed". False! Forging is not dependent on fee in expected block. The only thing that will change is that stakeholders would get back their sold NXT faster.

Nxt is good platform. It is another P2P software like Bittorent. We need to find another way to prevent spam and get rid of NXT.

I would like to offer an experiment:

Please 1M NXT and above holders stop forging for 3 days. Lets make countdown of 72 hours and lets forgers with less than 1M NXT post their results of forging during these 72 hours.

 

[Isildur23]

yeah right, nxt and his awesome initial distribution.

That make sense

I remember u!

Thanks a lot.

Nxt is doing great.

U should maybe delete the adress in the op. Noobs can be tempted to not read that it's disabled and send more coins.

Cheers

I am sorry, I guess it hurts to sell at 0.000001 and then price rises to 0.00008. Sorry!

[chanc3r]

More I think about Pooled Forging, more I don't like it. Does anyone have any ideas where this could lead to? Won't we face the same problem as Bitcoin (GHash)?

I put refactoring on hold until the community decides that it's safe for Nxt.

Instead of leasing forge power or Pooled Forging , you commit with your account to share fees among others in the same "share fee group" if you forge a node. You still try to forge a block on your own, but you commit to share the incentive with others if you are successful (with special conditions like committing to run the node for some time, ...).

share fee group (share fee pool or share fee Hubs) and limiting forging power of an account to 1.000.000 Nxt coin maximum . this means 10.000 nodes to ensure minimum network

Now imagine if I am correct with 1,000,000 Nxt coins pools (share fee group)

1.000.000.000 Nxt Coin
1.000.000 Nxt Coin per pool (share fee group)

10 accounts  90.000 Nxt 10 Node participate in forging
10 accounts  9.900 Nxt 10 Node participate in forging
10 accounts  100 Nxt 10 Node participate in forging

Total pool (share fee group) 1.000.000 Nxt
Total 30 Nodes participate in forging in this exemple

Chance to forge 0,001
rate forging 1440 blocs per day
526 Blocs per year
aprox 1,44 Blocs per day. 100 Nxt account is forging every day. receives fees in proportion to their funds every day!!!

1.000.000.000 Nxt Coin
1.000.000 Nxt Coin per pool (share fee group)
30.000 Nodes participate in forging. if there are only 30 accounts linked per pool (share fee group)

this means;

Extremely decentralized network (in the exemple 30.000 Nodes) and therefore very secure network
Small accounts motivated to participate in forging (In the exemple 100 Nxt account is forging every day not every 10 year)
rich and poor have the same chance to forge because everybody forge everyday!!!!

You just have to solve for the fees to be sufficiently attractive.

An interesting idea is to pay for other things like leased computing power
Other interesting idea is to pay for other things like leased memory storage capacity

Perhaps creating nodes coins proposed by jl777 implementing shared  fees pool  would be technically easier.

Could distribute node coins to the participants in the pool (share fee group) at all times proportion to the funds of each participant if any member had success in forging

I really like this idea because your node still has to be online to be part of the shared group.
It retains the decentralisation and number of nodes.
Forging is a bit like bingo/lottery anyway rather than mining and it smooths out the impact of penalty and people pool hopping if the pool was based on a single node...
So generally in stead of buying a single big ticket you are offering to share your ticket and any winnings with lots of others and vice versa
Penalties would only affect the nodes in the shared pool an would not take huge chunks of NXT out of the forging balance in one go by taking a whole pool out.

[brooklynbtc]

More I think about Pooled Forging, more I don't like it. Does anyone have any ideas where this could lead to? Won't we face the same problem as Bitcoin (GHash)?

I put refactoring on hold until the community decides that it's safe for Nxt.

Current NXT circulation:
1. Buy NXT from initial stakeholder.
2. Register alias / send message / issue asset and pay fee to stakeholder.
3. Goto :1

As I always said, forging was created for stakeholders. You (community) always said that "when we'll have more transactions, fees would be better distributed". False! Forging is not dependent on fee in expected block. The only thing that will change is that stakeholders would get back their sold NXT faster.

Nxt is good platform. It is another P2P software like Bittorent. We need to find another way to prevent spam and get rid of NXT.

I would like to offer an experiment:

Please 1M NXT and above holders stop forging for 3 days. Lets make countdown of 72 hours and lets forgers with less than 1M NXT post their results of forging during these 72 hours.

 

I have an experiment, Hey Russia (or USA) why dont you turn off your Radar and Drones and ICBM for 72 hours and we can see how many people can do stupid ass shit while your security is down. Oh wait? its your MONEY we're messing with? NM

[igmaca]

More I think about Pooled Forging, more I don't like it. Does anyone have any ideas where this could lead to? Won't we face the same problem as Bitcoin (GHash)?

I put refactoring on hold until the community decides that it's safe for Nxt.

Instead of leasing forge power or Pooled Forging , you commit with your account to share fees among others in the same "share fee group" if you forge a node. You still try to forge a block on your own, but you commit to share the incentive with others if you are successful (with special conditions like committing to run the node for some time, ...).

share fee group (share fee pool or share fee Hubs) and limiting forging power of an account to 1.000.000 Nxt coin maximum . this means 10.000 nodes to ensure minimum network

Now imagine if I am correct with 1,000,000 Nxt coins pools (share fee group)

1.000.000.000 Nxt Coin
1.000.000 Nxt Coin per pool (share fee group)

10 accounts  90.000 Nxt 10 Node participate in forging
10 accounts  9.900 Nxt 10 Node participate in forging
10 accounts  100 Nxt 10 Node participate in forging

Total pool (share fee group) 1.000.000 Nxt
Total 30 Nodes participate in forging in this exemple

Chance to forge 0,001
rate forging 1440 blocs per day
526 Blocs per year
aprox 1,44 Blocs per day. 100 Nxt account is forging every day. receives fees in proportion to their funds every day!!!

1.000.000.000 Nxt Coin
1.000.000 Nxt Coin per pool (share fee group)
30.000 Nodes participate in forging. if there are only 30 accounts linked per pool (share fee group)

this means;

Extremely decentralized network (in the exemple 30.000 Nodes) and therefore very secure network
Small accounts motivated to participate in forging (In the exemple 100 Nxt account is forging every day not every 10 year)
rich and poor have the same chance to forge because everybody forge everyday!!!!

You just have to solve for the fees to be sufficiently attractive.

An interesting idea is to pay for other things like leased computing power
Other interesting idea is to pay for other things like leased memory storage capacity

Perhaps creating nodes coins proposed by jl777 implementing shared  fees pool  would be technically easier.

Could distribute node coins to the participants in the pool (share fee group) at all times proportion to the funds of each participant if any member had success in forging

I really like this idea because your node still has to be online to be part of the shared group.
It retains the decentralisation and number of nodes.
Forging is a bit like bingo/lottery anyway rather than mining and it smooths out the impact of penalty and people pool hopping if the pool was based on a single node...
So generally in stead of buying a single big ticket you are offering to share your ticket and any winnings with lots of others
Penalties would only affect the nodes in the shared pool an would not take huge chunks of NXT out of the forging balance in one go by taking a whole pool out.

exact  

You just have to solve for the fees to be sufficiently attractive.

An interesting idea is to pay for other things like leased computing power
Other interesting idea is to pay for other things like leased memory storage capacity

Imagine now that someone decides to attack the " shared fee pools " and has success. (Or government or central power closes some "shared fee pools")

The only thing that happens is that it temporarily stop for shared allocation of fees.
As shared liquidation fees can be made instantly for each block forged. economic losses are negligible.
As power forging is fully decentralized network security is not compromised at all
Fees again fall entirely to the account that has already forged a successful block.

when the attack are Overcomes on the "shared fee pools" it is reactivated shared allocation of fees without major problems.

What use could also have share fee pools?

Could be gateways for Fiat currencies until the new economy adopts  massively crypto currencies
Therefore we could add value to 10,000 VPS nodes (hubs) scattered around the world