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Author Topic: NXT :: descendant of Bitcoin - Updated Information  (Read 2756303 times)
BrianNowhere
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March 14, 2014, 06:24:19 AM
 #44201

OK, line by line;

"I've read ripplescam.org before so I'm familiar with it."

Great. Please read it again.

"Part of my point is that from some of the talk I've surmised by reading this thread there has been allusions to to the fact that to get true Transparent Forging working as promised (to obtain transaction speeds that can compete with Ripple's) we are going to need high end servers running on VPS's that will require administration and money. "

Yes networks cost money and require administration to run.

"Who will be running these servers save for a few NXT fat-cats with a vested interest? "

The original Nxt VPS operators are taking a risk to volunteer their time and expertise to build and secure the Nxt network. After the Nxt Asset Exchange is released to the Nxt mainnet, forging fees will increase from the increased NXT based AE trading volume. This in turn translates to revenue for the original VPS operators in the form of forging NXT (transaction fees). As Nxt AE volume further increases, more people will have incentive to maintain Nxt nodes (which by the way do not need to be VPSs)

"How is that very much different or less centralized than what Ripple is doing?"

The Ripple system is operated on a distributed ledger, not a decentralized ledger like NXT is. Ripple is funded by Andreessen Horowitz and Google Labs. Google Labs surely would never hand sensitive customer data over to agencies with three letters would it?  Shocked


"ripplescam is also a little outdated as they have released the server source code and anyone can run one. "

Of course anyone can run compromised software if they choose to.

"Bitstamp and Peercover would be likely candidates to do so if anything every happenedd to Ripple Labs, which is pretty much the same argument I hear regarding the type of people who will run servers for NXT."

This sentence is so vague it cannot be reasonably responded to. What is your question? Bitstamp and Peercover would be candidates to "do so" ? What?

"With Ripple at least I know it works, transactions in XRP are fast and irreversible and I don't have to worry about whether enough Ripple users are running nodes now or in the future or worry about DDOS attacks."

I know NXT works. Transactions in NXT are fast and irreversible with one minute block generation times. The Nxt network is designed to be the most efficient and secure blockchain technology with revolutionary features not found in any other cryptocurrency platform. The Nxt network is extensible with use of Arbitrary Messages and Automated Transactions.

NXT has already successfully fought off DDOS attacks months ago. That fear is misplaced. You should be more concerned about the implications of this article http://bitcoinmagazine.com/10958/geostrategic-implications-bitcoin/ than whether or not NXT can fight off a DDOS attack. It can.

"As far as the decentralization goes, maybe NXT represents a slight improvement but that's about the only area it is superior. In almost every other area from what I can see, Ripple does it either the same or better."

Again, Ripple is a distributed ledger based system vs. NXT which is a decentralized ledger system. Does Ripple allow Issuers to issue their own currencies or their own shares in companies? How about Messaging? Does Ripple have that? Does Ripple have a decentralized Voting System near implementation? No?

"For a decentralized system to beat a centralized one it still has to be superior. Merchants and Consumers don't really care about the inner workings. It will come down to which system they trust more."

For the last time, Ripple is a distributed ledger based system and not a decentralized ledger based system like Nxt. Nxt is superior and offers numerous advantages to the corporate sponsored Ripple. Ripple powered by Google money. Decentralized? Not even. Good night.

You're reply was condescending and very biased. You said it yourself. Servers cost money to run. You haven't convinced e me that a decentralized ledger is anymore trustworthy than a distributed one is. NXT does not have miners like Bitcoin does, and requires a large portion of users to run open clients. No one knows if enough people will do this, especially since there's little financial incentive to do so.
It's a big unknown when it comes to POS and whether it will as well as BTC's mining system.

As far as I or anyone knows,  NXT's "decentralized" ledger may represent weaker security than Ripple's distributed ledger. Maybe a lot of people will run open clients at first and then lose interest in doing do. Maybe the network will be weak, maybe not. Who knows. We won't know for many many years.

Quote
I know NXT works. Transactions in NXT are fast and irreversible with one minute block generation times.

There's a double-spending risk with NXT unless you wait for 10 confirmations. The promised 1000 TPS is very much in doubt.
As far as I know Ripple is 3-15 seconds per transaction and can't be double spent. Advantage Ripple.

Quote
NXT has already successfully fought off DDOS attacks months ago. That fear is misplaced. You should be more concerned about the implications of this article http://bitcoinmagazine.com/10958/geostrategic-implications-bitcoin/ than whether or not NXT can fight off a DDOS attack. It can.

The DDOS attacks I'm talking about will be against people who run open clients when Transparent Forging is implemented. Everyone has to broadcast their IP to the entire network meaning any script kiddie can attack you as soon as it's announced you are next in line to generate a block. Running a node means opening yourself up to attack. This only further disincentives people to run nodes. It's a severe weak-point and a huge question mark.

Quote
Does Ripple allow Issuers to issue their own currencies or their own shares in companies?

Yes, anyone can issue an asset in Ripple. Then you have to obtain trust for any sane person to buy it. Just like in NXT.

Messaging: does the world need this that badly? Don't we already have email and a million other ways to send messages for free? Not that impressed.
Voting: yeah that's kind of cool but if no one uses NXT then who cares. This is also possible with Bitcoin or any other blockchain based network.  

Quote
"Bitstamp and Peercover would be likely candidates to do so if anything every happenedd to Ripple Labs, which is pretty much the same argument I hear regarding the type of people who will run servers for NXT."

This sentence is so vague it cannot be reasonably responded to. What is your question? Bitstamp and Peercover would be candidates to "do so" ? What?

I'm referring how whenever someone asks who will run NXT's servers it's implied that people who have a lot invested in NXT and are running assets will run them. To me that's not much more decentralized than what Ripple does. It's slightly less centralized.

Since anyone can run rippled (server), I'm not worried about something happening to Ripple Labs servers, because just as in NXT, entities with a vested interest in Ripple, like Peercover and Bitstamp would be motivated to run rippled servers. My point there is that the lines that separate why NXT is so much less centralized than Ripple is get blurrier all the time.

The world does not need a billion different digital currencies. It needs one. It's going to be Bitcoin unless a Next Generation currency
replaces it. If Bitcoin remains king then Mastercoin probably wins all the other territory (Decentralized Exchanges, etc) that NXT is trying to corner because it's built on top of BTC.
Ripple poses a threat to Bitcoin because it's greener, way faster and would work great a point of sale. It's far easier to use as well.

NXT right now is pretty much as slow as Bitcoin. Has a questionable and unproven method "forging" to secure the network and will require well heeled people to run high end servers.

I just don't see how it's much superior that's all. This is coming from an investor in NXT. I'm also heavy on XRP because at the end of the day the ledger type is irrelevant to regular human beings. They will go with what works best.


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March 14, 2014, 06:35:29 AM
 #44202

I'm glad to hear you have some experience with Ripple. I've been more and more thinking that NXT is shaping up to be nothing more than a Ripple copy-cat and one that is not as good at that and I'd love to hear why you think this is not so.

Ripple already is way faster, Has Decentralized Exchange w/ cross currency trading (Can buy NXT from Peercover with Bitstamp BTC or even Bitstamp USD), the XRP fees for trading are infinitesimal and only for spam protection. You can covert USD to XRP directly via SnapSwap (albeit w/ too high fees). You can even "mine"/acquire them with a far greater return through the BOINC WCG, which is a very noble cause.

NXT is slower, all the assets can only be purchased in NXT, there are NXT fees for doing anything, there is a NXT fee for PLACING a buy or sell order (which no other exchange does) , no one knows if enough people will run nodes, and it's been sounding like the system may end up needing centralized high performing servers to be able to boost the transaction speed to anywhere near what Ripple already has.

I'm really interested in hearing your thoughts on why you think NXT is better than Riipple and why the liquidity will be better or the spreads closer, why more companies and assets will be attracted to it, why REAL businesses and banks will buy into it & why it will be any more  successful.

Ripple community is a small circle of about a dozen guys who are mostly composed of naysayers who dont do much other than rip other people's ideas to shreds. A few fanboys, but at any given point in time only a few people are even on the forum. I defected over to NXT when I was reprimanded for trying to get a NXT market jump started over new years holidays. It seems the ripple forum is moderated by people who view anything close to ripple as a threat that needs to be squelched. NXT certainly fit the bill.

From a trader's perspective, USD != USD due to no cross redemption agreements between the various USD gateways. This leads to situations where you can pay a 50% premium to purchase BTC. Especially due to the large spreads going from anything to XRP and from XRP to anything else. There are basically 5 "active" markets in ripple BTC/XRP, USD/XRP (2) and CNY/XRP (2) The total trading volume in all five is less than NXT volumes are now and this is when NXT is "sleeping"

Oh, the giant elephant. 48 billion more XRP to be "distributed", which at any moment can disrupt the entire XRP ecosystem. Already, Jed McLeb donated many millions of XRP, which immediately diluted all XRP holdings. Basically any XRP based business that was holding XRP inventory lost 10% of value before they could do anything about it. Not that you can do much about it due to such low volumes in the market. Currently the bitcoin bridge is not working and hasnt been for 2 weeks. An inconvenience if you have a bitstamp acct, if not your XRPs and BTC inside ripple are trapped with no way out.

ripple has an AE like mechanism, but takes the position that they wont have anything to do with what happens. It is buyer beware. Also no restrictions on who can issue any specific IOU (ripple asset). Some scamster can (and has) issued "gold backed" IOU except the gold was not really accounted for and at best was something like one third backed. Another guy issued an asset that was backed fully by BTC (or so he said), but it started out at a price of 1.05 BTC. he said he would have an automatic bot that gradually raised the ASK price to 2 BTC, and because of this it was a good investment. sockpuppet show ensued.

He doesnt get reprimanded for that, but I do for trying to create a NXT market in ripple that had potential to get good volumes.

Ripple is slow to react. Everything has to go through proper channels, corporate management, PR and legal review, etc. In the time ripple decides to do one thing, NXT can (and has) done dozens of things.

NXT has a community that can protect its users from harm. NXT community has already tracked down crooks, got them to cough up ill gotten gains and made returns to victims. We have made continual improvements as fast as we can to protect users from newbie errors and I imagine we will continue to do so until we get it 100% foolproof.

Ripple is not really extensible. After they get all the bugs out,they will have a nice cross currency payment system that is totally transparent to all govt authorities. This is a concern as USA is in the process of implementing regulations that will force people to somehow prove the provenance of all their crypto. If they cant prove where it came from, it will be deemed to be illegal and probably confiscated. Even if they dont confiscate your ripple holdings, they will be able to identify by name, address and social security number each and every account and be able to backtrace all transactions. The trend is to assume people are guilty until proven innocent. Not exactly the home of freedom and individual rights the american PR machine leads the world to believe.

Is there anyway to add anonymity to ripple? There might be technically, but it is sure to be killed by the powers that be. Ripple has its place. It will be a perfect fiat gateway for all of crypto. Somebody has to fill that role and ripple does nicely at that.

The liquidity here will be better because that is one of the things I have set out to do. non-profit automated multisig gateways will allow this to be possible. It will charge enough fees to pay for its expenses and it wont be a monopoly, but it will be there for NXT community to be able to trade with low spreads. Where there are low spreads, there will be liquidity.

Ripple community did not want to listen to me and took measures to squelch me. At least here, we might disagree and tempers might flare, but at the end of the day there are many people who actively support what I am trying to do, both in public and in private, with encouragement and actual money. NXT community has its share of people who would fit right in with the ripple crowd, but there are a large number of people who are here not just to make a quick fortune, but really want to help change the world for the better.

For those of you who have not noticed, the war on bitcoin is escalating and with actual cash on its way to becoming less and less accepted, we MUST create anonymous crypto or there wont be any financial privacy left in the world anymore. NXT can achieve this, ripple cant.

In summary, anything ripple can do NXT can do it better. This would be the reason why businesses are better off building on top of NXT instead of on top of ripple. If we all just focused on helping businesses quickly get up to speed using NXT, it will be no contest at all. We need to think like we are an ethernet cable. We want packets going back and forth. The more activity, the better. At some point one of the NXT businesses will crack the joe-sixpack market (or teenage girl market) and go mainstream with their service. Most people wont know or care it is built on NXT, but 1% will probably find out. If it is a 10 million person market, 1% will add 100,000 active NXT users.

James

Thanks for your well balanced and even handed answer. A lot to chew on and I will. I respect what you are doing James and am in awe of your work ethic. I'm not sure how the nodecoin idea will work out but at least you are creating possible solutions. I'm a mere fly on the wall, hoping smart guys like you figure out the potential problems.


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March 14, 2014, 06:55:21 AM
 #44203

Can somebody explain to me, how asset "nodecoin" will harm NXT? If it would have name "nodeasset", so maybe problem is gone? If follow this logic, then every asset in AE (boobs, pens, etc.) will harm NXT. So we need to shutdown AE? Maybe I'm dumb and don't understand that nodecoin is not one of the 1000 assets in AE?
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March 14, 2014, 07:45:12 AM
 #44204

I wish Cunicula was here.

+10
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March 14, 2014, 07:50:31 AM
 #44205

I think Nodecoin is a cool extra feature. Even if it will be worth nothing Smiley
Maybe we can think about a new service using Nodecoins, like writing a cool interface for messaging and using Nodecoin as payment? Anyone interested? Smiley
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March 14, 2014, 08:00:46 AM
 #44206

I think Nodecoin is cool too. I would leave my client open to earn more.

I have no idea what it is. But I can earn 'something' for doing a really simple task.
That's awesome. Gonna collect as much as I can. Woohoo!

I have read the last 10-15 pages and it's unfair to attack James for creating Nodecoin.
Because EVERYBODY can do it. If James doesn't create it, someone else will. NXT made this possible.

So when you attack Nodecoin. You are actually attacking NXT itself which made this possible.  Wink


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March 14, 2014, 08:04:46 AM
 #44207

My english sucks and it's why I don't write a lot here.

But this time, I should say : What's the problem with Nodecoin and the work of James ?

Nodecoin is "just" an Asset... like others. There is no danger for NXT. The security is always based on NXT. No change.

About the value of Nodecoin, it's simple : if nobody buy Nodecoin, the value is 0. If you think that is useful, you can buy some and it has some value. The value depends of the NXTers.

If you don't have NXT and no money to buy some, you can have some Nodecoin. But the goal of Nodecoin is to buy eventually some NXT to forge.

Message to James : continue to work. Your things are great. NXT needs your projects. Don't take attention to the haters and hear the silent majority who like your work. I'm one of them.
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March 14, 2014, 08:04:52 AM
 #44208

I want to discuss this nodecoin from another side:

James, you are a machine. Please keep coming up with ideas. And here is my problem: Do you have enough energy and time for NXTcash, NXTmixer, multisig gateway, nodecoin and creating other new ideas? If not, I would be very thankful if you would focus a little more. If yes, please go on Smiley

I dont expect everyone to be able to understand how nodecoin, multisig gateway, NXTmixer and NXTcash all interoperate at the software and server level and the type of market dynamics it will create.

Another important point. Please explain to us what the interaction between all these things is and what kind of market dynamics it could create. I think the negative opinions will diminish once there is a better understanding.
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March 14, 2014, 08:10:13 AM
 #44209

Who is leading the tests of the AE?

Who can tell us we have tested everything and we can go live!

McJavar?

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March 14, 2014, 08:11:24 AM
 #44210

Kyle Torpey gave NXT (alongside MSC and ETH) a positive mention on the Keiser Report.

Re: Bitching. Ethereum and Mastercoin will also have ups and down but they don't air it all in public. At least we know what is really going on with NXT.

Don't know if it is always good. But yeah. +1
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March 14, 2014, 08:26:06 AM
 #44211

Who is leading the tests of the AE?

Who can tell us we have tested everything and we can go live!

McJavar?

I´ve set up tests at TestPad, sent out the access to all known users who wrote me a PM that they would like to test.
Unfortunately the Test Management System is barely used by anyone, although it is a very good tool to track progress and bugs.

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March 14, 2014, 08:27:06 AM
 #44212

Congratulations anti-nodecoin camp wins.

James

WTF?!?!?     Angry Angry Angry

WHAT IS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND PEOPLE?!?



I have no control over what goes into the NXT core.

James


It is not part of NXT core, it is just a NXT asset that I made

nodecoins are NOT part of NXT core. It is not part of NXT basic structure.
It is simply an asset I created using NXT core.
anybody can do this

James


Let Nodecoin alone! Smiley
And let it live ontop of Nxt!
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March 14, 2014, 08:32:18 AM
 #44213

I'm playing catch-up on the pub-crawl thread.  Last several pages have been an interesting read.

Hey guys, have this play while you read this thread:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-diB65scQU

"An awful lot of code is being written ... in languages that aren't very good by people who don't know what they're doing." -- Barbara Liskov
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March 14, 2014, 08:32:59 AM
 #44214

In a year we will have 4000 coins built on top of Nxt.

Wanna help to get there?

- ignore the trolls that are trolling our devs
- help our devs

- lick us at facebooks and twitters and retweet us

Nxt tips: NXT-R67P-6BZ2-XWAK-8RHZR | Nxt forum | Nxt Academy | Donate for Nxt at the Universities // BTCD: RVMLrnxYYy7uy8YZo9FcGfXbk1ZMnNifdg
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March 14, 2014, 08:35:58 AM
 #44215

It is easy to forget about the silent majority, when the vocal minority is doing all talking
+1440 !
James, please ignore this minority, and continue your great work!

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, the Next platform.  Magis quam Moneta (More than a Coin)
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March 14, 2014, 08:36:06 AM
 #44216

We just to make sure that nodecoin is known as a private asset created by a random guy if nodecoin is shit edit: and destroys the world Smiley
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March 14, 2014, 08:37:03 AM
 #44217

In a year we will have 4000 coins built on top of Nxt.

Wanna help to get there?

- ignore the trolls that are trolling our devs
- help our devs

- lick us at facebooks and twitters and retweet us

Yeah, lick us at Facebook.
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March 14, 2014, 08:37:38 AM
 #44218

We just to make sure that nodecoin is known as a private asset created by a random guy if nodecoin is shit Smiley

We say that it was Emule!:)
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March 14, 2014, 08:39:27 AM
 #44219

We're totally trolled  Grin Like noobs  Cool
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March 14, 2014, 08:41:10 AM
 #44220

What are the current ideas of having coins on top of Nxt:

- Coins via Asset Exchange
- Coins as parallel blockchains
- Using AM (How? And is this idea dismissed?)
- ...?
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