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Author Topic: Do we really have financial privacy and anonymity?  (Read 159 times)
Kakmakr
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May 01, 2018, 08:26:18 AM
 #1

I was just thinking if we really have financial privacy with Bitcoin with all these different types of analysis tools?

https://www.walletexplorer.com/ identifies your wallet provider and https://www.chainalysis.com/ link them all together. I am not sure if these analysis tools are rendered void by the use of Mixer services, but it is still a problem for many people not using these Mixer services.

My main concern is IF we have given governments the perfect solution with Bitcoin to track all financial transactions. Something that is not currently possible with Fiat cash. I am not concerned about governments that are using this technology to track criminals or terrorists, but rather those governments that wants to use that information to get rid of their opposition. <People who donate money to sites like WikiLeaks>

These tools can be used for "Good" and "Bad" and we will never know if "Bad" people are using these tools to target "Good" people.  Huh

What is your opinion about this?


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May 01, 2018, 08:53:46 AM
 #2

Transaction clustering algorithms render a lot of mixer services useless.
Bitcoin was not designed to be private; if people want  private transactions then they should use a fungible cryptocurrency
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May 01, 2018, 09:33:22 AM
 #3

Transaction clustering algorithms render a lot of mixer services useless.
Bitcoin was not designed to be private; if people want  private transactions then they should use a fungible cryptocurrency

Bitcoin is dangerous without some kind of anonymity. If all transactions can be traced and if this information is available to the general public, then this is more dangerous that we might think. Imagine if all Bank balances in the Fiat system were available to the general public. People will become targets for physical harm, if the the wrong people could identify the people with the most coins.

Satoshi wanted Bitcoin to be pseudo anonymous to protect people from harm. <Bad governments & thief's & robbers>

I do not want to use Monero or Dash or any other Crypto currency to give me "normal" financial privacy. Why do we have to use other Alt coins, if we have Bitcoin.  Huh

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May 01, 2018, 11:06:10 AM
 #4

All governments (deep state/ surveillance agencies) will track users whether they are suspected in criminal activities or not. I don't think that's a secret.

I wouldn't consider the services listed in Walletexplorer as wallet because they give you no control over your funds. Your address will be in interaction with the exchange hot wallet all the time and that's the main reason why It's easy to know which service you've used.

Mixers like ChipMixer give you private keys already loaded with funds to import. In this case, It's not possible to know whether these funds were redeemed or not unless you spend them so one should keep an eye on these address all the time as you could import them and spend them one year later.

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May 01, 2018, 01:12:56 PM
 #5

No one says Bitcoin is anonymous since it's only pseudonymous. User need some effort and being careful to stay anonymous while reckless action will do the opposite.
I think people shouldn't worry too much as long as their Bitcoin never touch exchanges or non-anonymous services. Mixer service should be good enough for regular person if they sure their internet activity and Bitcoin transaction is secured.

But if people have serious concern about their financial privacy and anonymity, they should use fungible/private cryptocurrency such as Monero or Zcash which offer true frangibility (sender/receiver/amount are hidden), run full nodes and use secure connection.

--snip--
I do not want to use Monero or Dash or any other Crypto currency to give me "normal" financial privacy. Why do we have to use other Alt coins, if we have Bitcoin.  Huh

That's why altcoin exist. Even if technology such as Zn-STARKs, CT Ring, Bulletproof or even Turing-complete Smart Contract can be implemented on Bitcoin (and assuming majority community agree), this idea will sacrifice Bitcoin decentralization/scaling and make development/implementation time slower.
Those coins choose functionality/anonymity over decentralization/easy scaling while Bitcoin focus on decentralization/easier scaling.


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May 01, 2018, 01:57:32 PM
 #6

There is a fine line between "anonymity" for the sake of financial privacy and "anonymity" to hide criminal actions. A lot of

these tools were created to track criminals and not to exploit the law abiding citizens. Mass surveillance is done, but mostly to

identify bad actors and not to infringe on people's privacy. The problem is, we do not know if these agencies are infiltrated by

some of these bad actors. {Like what happened in Silkroad, when agents stole confiscated coins}  Sad

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May 01, 2018, 02:34:02 PM
 #7

Mixers like ChipMixer give you private keys already loaded with funds to import. In this case, It's not possible to know whether these funds were redeemed or not unless you spend them so one should keep an eye on these address all the time as you could import them and spend them one year later.

That. Important, but actually risky since it all depends on trust, is the fact that you could even just choose to exchange the private keys that ChipMixer loaded itself, which basically means that the funds don't ever have to move on-chain, and thus there is no way for an external party, or even ChipMixer itself to know who owns what. Similarly, that's what I like about the loaded physical Bitcoins as well. It means that we don't even depend on internet to transact with Bitcoin, which makes it an even more powerful tool.

I still regret not having bought a couple of physical Bitcoins when the price was way lower and the premiums were affordable. Times are changing fast. Smiley

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May 02, 2018, 07:08:03 AM
 #8

No one says Bitcoin is anonymous since it's only pseudonymous. User need some effort and being careful to stay anonymous while reckless action will do the opposite.
I think people shouldn't worry too much as long as their Bitcoin never touch exchanges or non-anonymous services. Mixer service should be good enough for regular person if they sure their internet activity and Bitcoin transaction is secured.

But if people have serious concern about their financial privacy and anonymity, they should use fungible/private cryptocurrency such as Monero or Zcash which offer true frangibility (sender/receiver/amount are hidden), run full nodes and use secure connection.

--snip--
I do not want to use Monero or Dash or any other Crypto currency to give me "normal" financial privacy. Why do we have to use other Alt coins, if we have Bitcoin.  Huh

That's why altcoin exist. Even if technology such as Zn-STARKs, CT Ring, Bulletproof or even Turing-complete Smart Contract can be implemented on Bitcoin (and assuming majority community agree), this idea will sacrifice Bitcoin decentralization/scaling and make development/implementation time slower.
Those coins choose functionality/anonymity over decentralization/easy scaling while Bitcoin focus on decentralization/easier scaling.

We need to educate people on the dangers of using regulated exchanges or non-anonymous services. They should know that their wealth might be in danger, when they use centralized/regulated services. The developers should also add more anonymization methods for Bitcoin transactions in the future to protect people's financial privacy even more. < CoinJoin, CoinShuffle etc. >

Here are some tips to help you to protect your financial privacy. <Some services are outdated, but can be replaced by new services that are doing the same thing, like Bitmixer.io that are replaced by Chipmixer.com>

https://coinsutra.com/anonymous-bitcoin-transactions/


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May 02, 2018, 07:52:51 AM
 #9

Anonimity seems to be day by day less on BTC and other altcoins with all these different types of analysis tools. this is true.

https://www.walletexplorer.com/ identifies any wallet provider and https://www.chainalysis.com/ link them all together.

Mixer services cannot render void the analysis in my opinion.

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May 02, 2018, 11:55:19 AM
 #10

I was just thinking if we really have financial privacy with Bitcoin with all these different types of analysis tools?

https://www.walletexplorer.com/ identifies your wallet provider and https://www.chainalysis.com/ link them all together. I am not sure if these analysis tools are rendered void by the use of Mixer services, but it is still a problem for many people not using these Mixer services.

My main concern is IF we have given governments the perfect solution with Bitcoin to track all financial transactions. Something that is not currently possible with Fiat cash. I am not concerned about governments that are using this technology to track criminals or terrorists, but rather those governments that wants to use that information to get rid of their opposition. <People who donate money to sites like WikiLeaks>

These tools can be used for "Good" and "Bad" and we will never know if "Bad" people are using these tools to target "Good" people.  Huh

What is your opinion about this?


I tried walletexplorer on multiple address generated by different providers/warez and it couldn't identify the right one. So, I don't think that we really have to worry about tools like these. My advice, don't trade-in privacy for comfort, software wallets like Electrum can't compare to web-wallets that save your private keys and details on their servers.

Not everybody has financial privacy and anonymity, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country_or_territory. It shows that there are a handful of countries that forbid their citizens from using Bitcoin and therefore can punish them if they do.

Everything has pros and cons, meaning that it can be used for the good or the bad. For example, you could graduate in psychology and help people or you could use your knowledge to manipulate people.

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May 02, 2018, 12:16:34 PM
 #11

I was just thinking if we really have financial privacy with Bitcoin with all these different types of analysis tools?

https://www.walletexplorer.com/ identifies your wallet provider and https://www.chainalysis.com/ link them all together. I am not sure if these analysis tools are rendered void by the use of Mixer services, but it is still a problem for many people not using these Mixer services.

My main concern is IF we have given governments the perfect solution with Bitcoin to track all financial transactions. Something that is not currently possible with Fiat cash. I am not concerned about governments that are using this technology to track criminals or terrorists, but rather those governments that wants to use that information to get rid of their opposition. <People who donate money to sites like WikiLeaks>

These tools can be used for "Good" and "Bad" and we will never know if "Bad" people are using these tools to target "Good" people.  Huh

What is your opinion about this?


Any phenomenon on earth can be used both for good and for harm. Until the wallet is verified no problems with anonymity should arise

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May 02, 2018, 02:19:35 PM
 #12

Bitcoin was not designed to be private; if people want  private transactions then they should use a fungible cryptocurrency

I agree with this. Bitcoin cannot be everything. There are coins like Monero that does this job pretty well.

As a global currency 100% anonymity may not even be desirable. This could even be an obstacle to bitcoin mass adoption and possible regulations.

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May 02, 2018, 05:31:39 PM
 #13

https://www.walletexplorer.com/ identifies any wallet provider and https://www.chainalysis.com/ link them all together.

Walletexplorer does not 'identify a wallet provider'. This service links outputs which has been spent together to create a list of addresses which belong to one 'wallet'.
And chainalysis.com is a company which provides a private investigation service.



Mixer services cannot render void the analysis in my opinion.

This depends on what kind of mixing service you are using.
Take chipmixer for example. You get private keys with the corresponding balance. You can move your coins whenever you wish.
Not traceable by any kind of blockchain analysis.


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May 03, 2018, 05:52:50 AM
 #14

I was just thinking if we really have financial privacy with Bitcoin with all these different types of analysis tools?

https://www.walletexplorer.com/ identifies your wallet provider and https://www.chainalysis.com/ link them all together. I am not sure if these analysis tools are rendered void by the use of Mixer services, but it is still a problem for many people not using these Mixer services.

My main concern is IF we have given governments the perfect solution with Bitcoin to track all financial transactions. Something that is not currently possible with Fiat cash. I am not concerned about governments that are using this technology to track criminals or terrorists, but rather those governments that wants to use that information to get rid of their opposition. <People who donate money to sites like WikiLeaks>

These tools can be used for "Good" and "Bad" and we will never know if "Bad" people are using these tools to target "Good" people.  Huh

What is your opinion about this?


I tried walletexplorer on multiple address generated by different providers/warez and it couldn't identify the right one. So, I don't think that we really have to worry about tools like these. My advice, don't trade-in privacy for comfort, software wallets like Electrum can't compare to web-wallets that save your private keys and details on their servers.

Not everybody has financial privacy and anonymity, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country_or_territory. It shows that there are a handful of countries that forbid their citizens from using Bitcoin and therefore can punish them if they do.

Everything has pros and cons, meaning that it can be used for the good or the bad. For example, you could graduate in psychology and help people or you could use your knowledge to manipulate people.

I see a lot of the staff of Walletexplorer moved over to Chainalysis, so I do not know if the project was abandoned, but I still added it to the discussion to show people what can be done. It is also more difficult to get your hands on Chainalysis, so I might not have been able to substantiate my point, if I could not use a working example of what can be done.

It is not to say, if Walletexplorer <outdated> could not link these sites, that Chainalysis < A commercial version > would not have more updated links/info to do much deeper analysis of those addresses. From the presentations that I have seen, Chainalysis is MUCH better. 

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May 03, 2018, 08:37:06 AM
 #15

The more the institutions put the "nose" inside the system, the more anonymity and freedom become a far dream of the past.
Europe is getting worse in any aspect, but also Usa and Canada...
Anonimity is a concept, but the truth is not.
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May 03, 2018, 11:20:23 AM
 #16

I was just thinking if we really have financial privacy with Bitcoin with all these different types of analysis tools?

https://www.walletexplorer.com/ identifies your wallet provider and https://www.chainalysis.com/ link them all together. I am not sure if these analysis tools are rendered void by the use of Mixer services, but it is still a problem for many people not using these Mixer services.

My main concern is IF we have given governments the perfect solution with Bitcoin to track all financial transactions. Something that is not currently possible with Fiat cash. I am not concerned about governments that are using this technology to track criminals or terrorists, but rather those governments that wants to use that information to get rid of their opposition. <People who donate money to sites like WikiLeaks>

These tools can be used for "Good" and "Bad" and we will never know if "Bad" people are using these tools to target "Good" people.  Huh

What is your opinion about this?



For me, everything has a positive effect and negative effect. For example, in bitcoin, since we are in a decentralized system, it is really hard to track illegal transactions, and instances where your wallet gets hacked. But in a decentralized system, there is a high chance that you can protect your identity if you want. But in a centralized system, the government can track your funds and any form of illegal activities and there is a chance that your funds can be restored. And the downside is they can put taxes and your funds can get lower.

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May 03, 2018, 01:20:15 PM
 #17

Those coins choose functionality/anonymity over decentralization/easy scaling while Bitcoin focus on decentralization/easier scaling.

Mimblewimble shows that improved privacy and scalability can go hand in hand...
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May 03, 2018, 01:31:12 PM
 #18

I was just thinking if we really have financial privacy with Bitcoin with all these different types of analysis tools?

https://www.walletexplorer.com/ identifies your wallet provider and https://www.chainalysis.com/ link them all together. I am not sure if these analysis tools are rendered void by the use of Mixer services, but it is still a problem for many people not using these Mixer services.

My main concern is IF we have given governments the perfect solution with Bitcoin to track all financial transactions. Something that is not currently possible with Fiat cash. I am not concerned about governments that are using this technology to track criminals or terrorists, but rather those governments that wants to use that information to get rid of their opposition. <People who donate money to sites like WikiLeaks>

These tools can be used for "Good" and "Bad" and we will never know if "Bad" people are using these tools to target "Good" people.  Huh

What is your opinion about this?


I tried walletexplorer on multiple address generated by different providers/warez and it couldn't identify the right one. So, I don't think that we really have to worry about tools like these. My advice, don't trade-in privacy for comfort, software wallets like Electrum can't compare to web-wallets that save your private keys and details on their servers.

Not everybody has financial privacy and anonymity, according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_bitcoin_by_country_or_territory. It shows that there are a handful of countries that forbid their citizens from using Bitcoin and therefore can punish them if they do.

Everything has pros and cons, meaning that it can be used for the good or the bad. For example, you could graduate in psychology and help people or you could use your knowledge to manipulate people.

I see a lot of the staff of Walletexplorer moved over to Chainalysis, so I do not know if the project was abandoned, but I still added it to the discussion to show people what can be done. It is also more difficult to get your hands on Chainalysis, so I might not have been able to substantiate my point, if I could not use a working example of what can be done.

It is not to say, if Walletexplorer <outdated> could not link these sites, that Chainalysis < A commercial version > would not have more updated links/info to do much deeper analysis of those addresses. From the presentations that I have seen, Chainalysis is MUCH better. 
It is indeed not easy to setup an account at chainanalysis nor could I find a demo at Youtube. But I am really wondering what the process of identifying these addresses is? That way we could understand how to get real financial privacy and anonymity. Bitiodine is no longer actively developed as an open-source project, so they might use that framework as their service. But they also could have designed their own framework, in which we will never know what is going on under the hood.

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Abigail Asi
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May 18, 2018, 12:36:36 PM
 #19

Bitcoin is dangerous without some kind of anonymity. Imagine the general public sees one who deals in bitcoin.

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May 18, 2018, 01:01:21 PM
 #20

I was just thinking if we really have financial privacy with Bitcoin with all these different types of analysis tools?

https://www.walletexplorer.com/ identifies your wallet provider and https://www.chainalysis.com/ link them all together. I am not sure if these analysis tools are rendered void by the use of Mixer services, but it is still a problem for many people not using these Mixer services.

My main concern is IF we have given governments the perfect solution with Bitcoin to track all financial transactions. Something that is not currently possible with Fiat cash. I am not concerned about governments that are using this technology to track criminals or terrorists, but rather those governments that wants to use that information to get rid of their opposition. <People who donate money to sites like WikiLeaks>

These tools can be used for "Good" and "Bad" and we will never know if "Bad" people are using these tools to target "Good" people.  Huh

What is your opinion about this?



There is nothing wrong with bitcoin but there is something wrong with people. We do not have a total privacy when we use bitcoin and we only have a limited privacy since the government can access our information through the KYC and AML documents we submitted to the exchanges. I guess there will be a problem if the government leaders are abusing their authority but if not then we have nothing to worry about.

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