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Author Topic: [ANNOUNCE] Whitepaper for Bitstorage - a peer to peer, cloud storage network  (Read 8914 times)
tubbyjr
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November 30, 2013, 07:43:52 PM
 #21

The concept seems similar to what Datacoin is doing, although I haven't actually read through your whitepaper.
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December 02, 2013, 12:37:55 AM
 #22

Oh what a fun discussion. I'm working on something similar as well. Calling mine StorJ after the Bitcoin agents concept. Really want to get Bitcoin agents running on whichever one of these concepts turns out to be the best.

The concept seems similar to what Datacoin is doing, although I haven't actually read through your whitepaper.
Negative. Essentially Datacoin just took Primecoin and made the data portion bigger. Its a cool concept, but at the end of the day it just leaves you with a huge blockchain, and you can't reasonably store anything more than a few documents. After that the price just becomes unreasonably.

Bitcoin Dev / Storj - Decentralized Cloud Storage. Winner of Texas Bitcoin Conference Hackathon 2014. / Peercoin Web Lead / Primecoin Web Lead / Armory Guide Author / "Am I the only one that trusts Dogecoin more than the Federal Reserve?"
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December 03, 2013, 08:32:16 AM
 #23

Is there some mechanism for preventing a single node storing a single copy of the data, and then spoofing multiple identities and claiming payment as-if the data were stored across multiple nodes?

That's impossible unfortunately - no amount of math can prevent a node from outsourcing the actual storage to a central location that is a single-point-of-failure.

The best you'll ever be able to do is pay enough that there is incentive to do the job right, and/or use social/legal mechanisms to audit what node operators do and then arrange these transactions with specific operators. Not terribly exciting solutions unfortunately...

The obvious solutions are proof-of-work or proof-of-stake, but I can't see how proof-of-work alone would suffice.

Yeah, proof-of-work can only prove IO bandwidth, not where the data is located.

However... interactive latency measurements can prove data within some sphere of radius t*c. With multiple trusted challenge servers around the world located in co-location centers one could easily prove that the data must be physically present in multiple locations.


You can even do in a fully decentralized way with some extensions to the Bitcoin scripting language by creating a txout that can only be spent by proving you have some data fragment, where the fragment is chosen randomly based on the previous block hash.

Because the fragment is based on the previous block hash, there is a time limit to how quickly the fragment must be retrieved, thereby proving (after sufficient trials) that the data is physically located within a sphere of radius 10minutes * the speed of light - currently this would prove the data may be physically located on Earth, the Moon and Venus, but no other planet. With a second proof-of-work blockchain established on, say, Pluto, we could then easily prove a similar result for data located on or nearby Pluto. (proving the Pluto proof-of-work blockchain is in fact located on Pluto is left as an exercise for the reader)

I think it's much slower than the speed of light unless you are sending only 1 or a few bits. The higher bandwidth desired, the shorter distance is possible. And the costs increase exponentially with distance, surpassing the mining reward. So your method may be good enough, with random fragments calculated based on a previous hash. The miners may have to store all the data in a nearby storage in order to compete with other miners.

I've been looking for something like this.  What I recently read was PAST p2p storage developed in Microsoft Research a long time ago: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/antr/past/ It doesn't have currency implemented as incentives. Each file has K copies stored on the p2p network. The problem with this approach is that POW can only be done on the K nodes which contains a fragment. We seem to need every miner to have full access to all the data in order to calculate the hash of a random fragment. But that will bloat the block chain. How do we solve this problem?
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December 05, 2013, 06:47:40 PM
 #24

I've finally taken the time to read through the discussion. Is there an "official" IRC channel or something? If not, want to join #bitstorage at freenode?

Some points I want to add to the discussion:

- When I began thinking about this concept, I imagined a dropbox-like system, in which you can upload any kind of files. Later I decided it could be better to limit the files to a certain size, or forget about the notion of files altogether (at least at the protocol level). That's why I had named the system "bucketchain", as a system which allows distributed storage of 1MB-sized "buckets" of data. (I like bitstorage better, but we can still use "bucket" to refer to the unit of storage).

- Regarding the impossibility of having proof of redundancy (because a node can store a bucket 1 time and expose it as many identities), I read an idea that could be applied here. The client can allow the user to upload a file with n-redundancy by encrypting the file n times with different private keys. For the network that'd be n different files, so they can't cheat. The problem with that is that it can be stored n times in the same server, which removes part of the redundancy benefits. In any case, I don't think the protocol should contemplate redundancy. An consequently...

- We should try to reduce the protocol to the bare minimum, and then build over that. I think that'd be one in which you can create write transactions for 1MB buckets, and read transactions which are redeemed by peers who can prove to have that bucket. Actual bucket transfer can be left for a side-channel maybe?

- Is it too early to create an open-source project and github repo for this? I think Sarchar should start the thing, but I can do it too. I suggest python as the language. It makes no sense IMO to create a C++ project today. We'll get lots more collaborators and readable code using a more modern language.


Sorry for the long post!
Manuel

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December 20, 2013, 01:59:45 PM
 #25

Hi, I have been working on inventing for a project similar to this since June 2013.  My skills are as an inventor and not a programmer.  I worked for exxon mobil upstream research company 2 years ago when I was 20 and they stole inventions from me so I decided to get them back by inventing a decentralized IP system with a decentralized cloud storage that could poach IP from large companies.  

I have made considerable headway on how to place incentive to promote users to submit valuable information to the ledger/blockchain.  It is very exciting to see people validating the ideas over the last month.  At least I'm not getting trolled like I was at times haha.  

I think it is important to establish a goal for the cloud: is it to create a cloud that amasses the most valuable information possible?  I would suggest that.  I am an inventor, not a programmer.  I would like to work with you guys/girls and hopefully help the project go in the right direction.  

I'm currently locked out of my main forum account because I left my password at home and am traveling for the holidays.  

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=252564.0

https://109.201.133.195/index.php?topic=333991.20

I've had a github up for a short while to get my ideas and specs down:
https://github.com/vintagetrex/Nemesis-Project/blob/master/README.md

thanks,

vintagetrex
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December 20, 2013, 02:24:58 PM
 #26

Is there some mechanism for preventing a single node storing a single copy of the data, and then spoofing multiple identities and claiming payment as-if the data were stored across multiple nodes?


there is a single hash verifiable solution to this through an arrangement of proof of storage where storage of a file is proved over a period of work (# of randomly generated strings and hashes).  I theorized this solution with some help from wolf0
Sarchar
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December 20, 2013, 02:28:09 PM
 #27

Just chiming in to say what's up: I've been completely distracted with some of my other projects.  While I believe in a project like this, it's just too complicated for me to do in my limited time.  I'd be very happy to leave this up to the rest of you who seem to be doing similar (and greater!) things. 
vintagetrex
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December 21, 2013, 12:48:38 AM
 #28

Is there some mechanism for preventing a single node storing a single copy of the data, and then spoofing multiple identities and claiming payment as-if the data were stored across multiple nodes?


there is a single hash verifiable solution to this through an arrangement of proof of storage where storage of a file is proved over a period of work (# of randomly generated strings and hashes).  I theorized this solution with some help from wolf0

these were me.  I got onto my account.  Check out my ideas.  They are well formed. 

Nemesis: minting cryptographic currency with information
takagari
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December 21, 2013, 02:29:19 AM
 #29

Seems like a new way for user's to share pirated data Smiley better be a big network!

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