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Author Topic: Physical Bit Dollars (BETA)  (Read 3445 times)
EricJ2190
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August 07, 2011, 04:14:10 AM
 #21

what is the advantage of this over having real keys on paper.
It's the same idea as BitBills just with paper.

This isn't quite the same as what BitBills is doing. First, BitBills can be redeemed even if the BitBills company disappears. Second, BitBills can be exchanged freely as currency. Assuming you don't find a way to defeat their security measures, only the person holding a bill is able to redeem its value, up until it has been cut open. BitDollars can't safely be exchanged since you have no way of knowing if a prior holder saved a copy of the code before spending the bill.
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markm
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August 07, 2011, 04:26:35 AM
 #22

Ah, interesting, thanks.

I wasn't contemplating printing coins to exchange but of printing coins to spend. That is, I did not expect the shop I spend them at to give them on to someone else, I expected if they want to give coins on paper to someone they would print them, whether they were printing the same value that I had just given them (which they moved to another address of course) or coins they already had.

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August 07, 2011, 04:52:22 AM
 #23

what is the advantage of this over having real keys on paper.
It's the same idea as BitBills just with paper.

Is it really?
If you and your computer system disappeared into a crack in the ground during an earthquake - would the bit dollars still be usable?

With bitbills - the company could disappear and it wouldn't matter.
I can always open up the bitbill and use the private key to load the face value of the card into a normal bitcoin wallet.



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ctoon6
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August 07, 2011, 05:28:28 AM
 #24

just as a i thought, this is just overall a dumb idea? this is the same as an ewallet almost.

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August 07, 2011, 06:36:00 AM
 #25

just as a i thought, this is just overall a dumb idea? this is the same as an ewallet almost.
I think as suggested, it is a dumb idea. But if each bill includes the private key, it's not a bad idea. At least in that case, we can easily confirm that the reservoir has the claimed 100% reserve. (Though either way, they could run off with all the money at any point.)

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August 07, 2011, 07:58:02 AM
 #26

Quote
What if someone tries giving me a used BitDollar?

Just ask TheBitMan on the forum and I will confirm if the code has any value.

I LOLed. A LOT.

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August 07, 2011, 12:26:31 PM
 #27

what is the advantage of this over having real keys on paper.
It's the same idea as BitBills just with paper.

If they can easily and conveniently be accepted by shops that accept bitcoin then for anyone who already owns a printer they should be very useful. heck if I had lots of shops nearby that accept bitcoins and lots of bitcoins to spend maybe I'd even buy a cheap printer just so I can walk around with paper bitcoins to spend at local shops.

I do not understand what fractional reserve and so on has to do with using printed on paper bitcoins though. What would I gain by using a fractional reserve system (backed only by whatever is left over after paying for website expenses or whatever it seems) instead of simply giving my printed bitcoins to the retailer to scan into their own system? Or is it precisely because I don't personally have a printer and maybe have no desire to own a printer that I might find using a website that does own a printer useful as a means of printing my bitcoins?

-MarkM-

I print them for you and ship the to you  Smiley
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August 07, 2011, 12:43:14 PM
 #28

I looked into hologram stickers but paper and stickers don't like each other.
ctoon6
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August 07, 2011, 12:49:12 PM
 #29

the thing with a security hologram is that they are pointless unless you get a custom made one, and hope the same company don't sell them to another entity. otherwise your just wasting your time and the customers money.

TheBitMan
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August 07, 2011, 12:56:53 PM
 #30

Quote
What if someone tries giving me a used BitDollar?

Just ask TheBitMan on the forum and I will confirm if the code has any value.

I LOLed. A LOT.
Site is still being worked on..
JoelKatz
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August 07, 2011, 12:57:19 PM
 #31

I do not understand what fractional reserve and so on has to do with using printed on paper bitcoins though. What would I gain by using a fractional reserve system (backed only by whatever is left over after paying for website expenses or whatever it seems) instead of simply giving my printed bitcoins to the retailer to scan into their own system? Or is it precisely because I don't personally have a printer and maybe have no desire to own a printer that I might find using a website that does own a printer useful as a means of printing my bitcoins?
Say you have 50,000 BTC in bitdollars "out there". And say you typically redeem 1,000 BTC per day. You might "invest" 30,000 BTC in the market to try to make some extra money. But if you lose those BTC, eventually some customer will want to redeem a bitdollar and you won't be able to cover it.

To assure us that you are not "borrowing" your customers' money, you should do three things:

1) Publish the list of account(s) that are holding customer's funds.
2) Regularly publish the serial number and denomination of every outstanding bitdollar (but not the claim code).
3) Any time a new account is added to list 1, you should prove that it is your account. (There are various ways you can do this.)

That way, if I have a bitdollar, I can 100% confirm that it is valid and I can 100% confirm that you actually have the bitcoins to back all outstanding bitdollar. You cannot easily cheat this system because if one bitodollar isn't on the list, the owner of that bitdollar at least will know it. And if you don't have enough bitcoins to cover the total of all bitdollars, we can see that from the accounts.

You can still cheat people by refusing to honor bitdollars either one by one or just disappearing one day. But at least this will ensure that as soon as you start cheating, people will know to stop trusting you. (If they ever start.) It will also ensure you can't secretly "borrow" customer funds.

I am an employee of Ripple.
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TheBitMan
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August 07, 2011, 12:57:46 PM
 #32

what is the advantage of this over having real keys on paper.
It's the same idea as BitBills just with paper.

Is it really?
If you and your computer system disappeared into a crack in the ground during an earthquake - would the bit dollars still be usable?

With bitbills - the company could disappear and it wouldn't matter.
I can always open up the bitbill and use the private key to load the face value of the card into a normal bitcoin wallet.



I wouldn't store them on my regular wallet  Smiley
julz
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August 07, 2011, 01:37:01 PM
 #33

what is the advantage of this over having real keys on paper.
It's the same idea as BitBills just with paper.

Is it really?
If you and your computer system disappeared into a crack in the ground during an earthquake - would the bit dollars still be usable?

With bitbills - the company could disappear and it wouldn't matter.
I can always open up the bitbill and use the private key to load the face value of the card into a normal bitcoin wallet.



I wouldn't store them on my regular wallet  Smiley

Which implies you will be storing the private keys somewhere.
If this is the case - please
a) Stop claiming the system is 'like bitbills'.   (bitbills store *nothing* - everything is on the card.)
b) explain exactly how your system works... and what would happen to the BTC for a particular piece of paper you issued if you and your entire IT infrastructure disappeared.





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TheBitMan
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August 07, 2011, 01:41:51 PM
 #34

what is the advantage of this over having real keys on paper.
It's the same idea as BitBills just with paper.

Is it really?
If you and your computer system disappeared into a crack in the ground during an earthquake - would the bit dollars still be usable?

With bitbills - the company could disappear and it wouldn't matter.
I can always open up the bitbill and use the private key to load the face value of the card into a normal bitcoin wallet.



I wouldn't store them on my regular wallet  Smiley

Which implies you will be storing the private keys somewhere.
If this is the case - please
a) Stop claiming the system is 'like bitbills'.   (bitbills store *nothing* - everything is on the card.)
b) explain exactly how your system works... and what would happen to the BTC for a particular piece of paper you issued if you and your entire IT infrastructure disappeared.





nothing is going to disappear..
julz
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August 07, 2011, 01:44:03 PM
 #35

what is the advantage of this over having real keys on paper.
It's the same idea as BitBills just with paper.

Is it really?
If you and your computer system disappeared into a crack in the ground during an earthquake - would the bit dollars still be usable?

With bitbills - the company could disappear and it wouldn't matter.
I can always open up the bitbill and use the private key to load the face value of the card into a normal bitcoin wallet.



I wouldn't store them on my regular wallet  Smiley

Which implies you will be storing the private keys somewhere.
If this is the case - please
a) Stop claiming the system is 'like bitbills'.   (bitbills store *nothing* - everything is on the card.)
b) explain exactly how your system works... and what would happen to the BTC for a particular piece of paper you issued if you and your entire IT infrastructure disappeared.





nothing is going to disappear..

Worst answer ever. Especially in the wake of the mybitcoin fiasco.

If you are unwilling to explain the system - nobody in their right mind will use it.

I was willing to give you a chance - You just blew it.








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TheBitMan
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August 07, 2011, 01:52:38 PM
 #36

what is the advantage of this over having real keys on paper.
It's the same idea as BitBills just with paper.

Is it really?
If you and your computer system disappeared into a crack in the ground during an earthquake - would the bit dollars still be usable?

With bitbills - the company could disappear and it wouldn't matter.
I can always open up the bitbill and use the private key to load the face value of the card into a normal bitcoin wallet.



I wouldn't store them on my regular wallet  Smiley

Which implies you will be storing the private keys somewhere.
If this is the case - please
a) Stop claiming the system is 'like bitbills'.   (bitbills store *nothing* - everything is on the card.)
b) explain exactly how your system works... and what would happen to the BTC for a particular piece of paper you issued if you and your entire IT infrastructure disappeared.





nothing is going to disappear..

Worst answer ever. Especially in the wake of the mybitcoin fiasco.

If you are unwilling to explain the system - nobody in their right mind will use it.

I was willing to give you a chance - You just blew it.








Codes aren't held on the site or anything like that.
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August 07, 2011, 02:02:54 PM
 #37

Codes aren't held on the site or anything like that.
Ok, but we need to know how it works!! Either you are keeping something or are you just taking a private key, making an address, depositing the money, and then printing a bill with the private key/address?

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August 07, 2011, 02:28:47 PM
 #38

Codes aren't held on the site or anything like that.
Wherever they are held, if that disappears, every bitdollar becomes worthless. That's a pretty high risk considering how bitcoin-related business have a habit of disappearing.

There are a few ways to work around that:

1) Have a really good reputation, have people know your real identity, and operate completely in the open.

2) Hire independent auditors to provide independent configuration that how you say you run your business is the same as how you really run it.

3) Design your business in such a way that it's not easy for you to cheat people and get away with it. For example, document the amount of outstanding obligations you have and prove you have the reserve you claim you have.

But honestly, your system as proposed doesn't seem very useful. Pretty much the same thing can be done in ways that don't have the risks your method has.

Also, this could be a language barrier issue or just me being hypersensitive, but you seem a bit slow to understand the things people are telling you. I'm not suggesting you are stupid, just that you're not deeply familiar with the issues with running a business like this and the threats you will face. They're not obvious, and you can't magically know them just be being a smart guy. It seems like you might lack the experience necessary to run a business where you may be safeguarding hundreds of thousands of dollars of other people's money.

People asked the most obvious questions, the ones you should already have the answers for because you know people are going to ask them, and it seemed like you didn't understand the questions. In fairness, they weren't very detailed. But because you should already have thought through all the threats and how you will address them, it should have been sufficient to just point out the type of threat to hear your plan to address that threat. And it wasn't.

I am an employee of Ripple.
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urstroyer
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August 07, 2011, 03:10:54 PM
 #39

This project doesn't seem very serious tbh. Look at the website, no information about who is running the site.

Why should i trust you and buy bitdollars? This will end like mybitcoin... As soon as the site owner has enough btc in his wallets, he will disappear and going to sell out and make big cash. Your bitdollars will become worthless because, nobody is willing to pay you any bitcent for this redemtion codes...

TheBitMan
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August 07, 2011, 08:44:59 PM
 #40

The site is not even ready yet. I can understand everyones fear, but that doesnt mean you should be against new projects. I am on my ipod and can not reach my cpu right now. But tonight I will tell you all how it will work, I know there will be some negativity towards it but not everything can be perfect.
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