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November 29, 2013, 06:09:35 AM
 #81

I still can't decide whether Anonymint is a very successful troll at winding people up, or he really is that incapable of understanding how the mining process and nodes actually work. If the former, congratulations. If the latter, I feel sorry for his lack of understanding. There's no point repeating what others have said as they've already explained the reasons why Anonymints argument makes no logical sense,so there's really nothing more to add.


     
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November 29, 2013, 06:25:29 AM
 #82

I still can't decide whether Anonymint is a very successful troll at winding people up, or he really is that incapable of understanding how the mining process and nodes actually work. If the former, congratulations. If the latter, I feel sorry for his lack of understanding. There's no point repeating what others have said as they've already explained the reasons why Anonymints argument makes no logical sense,so there's really nothing more to add.

I have refuted their arguments upthread. If you can't understand, all I can say is that to a lower IQ person such as apparently yourself (or maybe you are just too lazy to really try to understand), intelligence appears to be noise or incorrect. In short, you don't understand my rebuttal (until you convince me otherwise).

It wouldn't help for me to explain in more detail my thesis than I already have. I covered all the points upthread.

Re-read these two posts:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=349869.msg3754669#msg3754669
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=349869.msg3755466#msg3755466
(skip to the "Basically what it has boiled down ...")

Those are my rebuttals. They have not been refuted.

Can you guarantee that you know what source code every open source client in the world is running in 2040? Nonsense. Can you guarantee how they will react to an inconsistent rule choice in the block chain? How can you make such a guarantee? I suppose you think Gavin Andresen is a God.

Logic.

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November 29, 2013, 06:38:21 AM
 #83

Who decides which open source projects are funded?

If it is the miners, they can find ways to pay it to themselves.

If it is the coin foundation, they can similarly game it, just as our politics is gamed by vested interests.

Besides the point we speaking about economic ramifications... Im sure it can evolve to be democratic in decisions.. If it doesnt Ill just make my own that works democraticaly through an electoral process so even I need to fight to keep leader position etc.

Actually anyone can suggest bounties but we vote for which ones are important... Ideally this will evolve to something more efficient but its the idea that counts. miners are paying via electricity. Later a bounty exchange can be created to match vendors with developers like workforcrypto.com

Democracy always fails:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=342007.msg3761567#msg3761567

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=342007.msg3762047#msg3762047

It is all we have, then it is stable for about 78 years per collapse cycle. I am hoping for something better.


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November 29, 2013, 06:40:16 AM
 #84

I still can't decide whether Anonymint is a very successful troll at winding people up, or he really is that incapable of understanding how the mining process and nodes actually work. If the former, congratulations. If the latter, I feel sorry for his lack of understanding. There's no point repeating what others have said as they've already explained the reasons why Anonymints argument makes no logical sense,so there's really nothing more to add.


I'm calling paid troll. Gotta be.

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November 29, 2013, 06:41:16 AM
 #85

I still can't decide whether Anonymint is a very successful troll at winding people up, or he really is that incapable of understanding how the mining process and nodes actually work. If the former, congratulations. If the latter, I feel sorry for his lack of understanding. There's no point repeating what others have said as they've already explained the reasons why Anonymints argument makes no logical sense,so there's really nothing more to add.


I'm calling paid troll. Gotta be.

I can guarantee you that is not the case. No one is paying me a dime. I was offered to partner with investors in the $millions range and I declined in order to retain my independence.

I firmly believe in the logic I have presented, and I am truly frightened by the coming events I believe are underway.

And I am working to prevent those bad outcomes all by myself. Although I have shared some of my algorithms with others just in case something happens to me.

I do hope to be paying myself though. Meaning I hope there is one or more altcoins coming, perhaps influenced by my efforts.

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November 29, 2013, 06:41:31 AM
 #86

Who decides which open source projects are funded?

If it is the miners, they can find ways to pay it to themselves.

If it is the coin foundation, they can similarly game it, just as our politics is gamed by vested interests.

Besides the point we speaking about economic ramifications... Im sure it can evolve to be democratic in decisions.. If it doesnt Ill just make my own that works democraticaly through an electoral process so even I need to fight to keep leader position etc.

Actually anyone can suggest bounties but we vote for which ones are important... Ideally this will evolve to something more efficient but its the idea that counts. miners are paying via electricity. Later a bounty exchange can be created to match vendors with developers like workforcrypto.com

Democracy always fails:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=342007.msg3761567#msg3761567

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=342007.msg3762047#msg3762047



So what your saying is because a human factor that the distribution of mining wealth cant be distributed efficiently to the benefit of all? Its sure a smaller problem than losing the incentive to mine :p

I think cycles like the kress cycle are based on phscycology more than political structure but hey noone knows for sure. Thats why I like the idea of stable known growth because surprises are the worsed things to imsert into the herd.

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November 29, 2013, 06:51:30 AM
 #87

I still can't decide whether Anonymint is a very successful troll at winding people up, or he really is that incapable of understanding how the mining process and nodes actually work. If the former, congratulations. If the latter, I feel sorry for his lack of understanding. There's no point repeating what others have said as they've already explained the reasons why Anonymints argument makes no logical sense,so there's really nothing more to add.


I'm calling paid troll. Gotta be.

I can guarantee you that is not the case. No one is paying me a dime.

I firmly believe in the logic I have presented, and I am truly frightened by the coming events I believe are underway.

And I am working to prevent those bad outcomes all by myself. Although I have shared some of my algorithms with others just in case something happens to me.

I do hope to be paying myself though. Meaning there is one or more altcoins coming from my efforts.

Ahh, pumping your own coin, that old trick. Thought you was up to something.
So what's it gonna to be? Premined? Preminted? Instamined? Or good old fashioned closed source? Maybe a hybrid of all of them.


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November 29, 2013, 06:52:20 AM
 #88

Everything possible to make sure you won't mine it. You will eat humble pie.

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November 29, 2013, 06:53:30 AM
 #89

I still can't decide whether Anonymint is a very successful troll at winding people up, or he really is that incapable of understanding how the mining process and nodes actually work. If the former, congratulations. If the latter, I feel sorry for his lack of understanding. There's no point repeating what others have said as they've already explained the reasons why Anonymints argument makes no logical sense,so there's really nothing more to add.


I'm calling paid troll. Gotta be.

I can guarantee you that is not the case. No one is paying me a dime.

I firmly believe in the logic I have presented, and I am truly frightened by the coming events I believe are underway.

And I am working to prevent those bad outcomes all by myself. Although I have shared some of my algorithms with others just in case something happens to me.

I do hope to be paying myself though. Meaning there is one or more altcoins coming from my efforts.

Ahh, pumping your own coin, that old trick. Thought you was up to something.
So what's it gonna to be? Premined? Perminted? Instamined? Or good old fashioned closed source? Maybe a hybrid of all of them.



please provide logic on how tx fees can sustain mining? I always hated static tx fees and scaling fees may cause other issues?

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November 29, 2013, 06:57:44 AM
 #90

I still can't decide whether Anonymint is a very successful troll at winding people up, or he really is that incapable of understanding how the mining process and nodes actually work. If the former, congratulations. If the latter, I feel sorry for his lack of understanding. There's no point repeating what others have said as they've already explained the reasons why Anonymints argument makes no logical sense,so there's really nothing more to add.


I'm calling paid troll. Gotta be.

I can guarantee you that is not the case. No one is paying me a dime. I was offered to partner with investors in the $millions range and I declined in order to retain my independence.

I firmly believe in the logic I have presented, and I am truly frightened by the coming events I believe are underway.

And I am working to prevent those bad outcomes all by myself. Although I have shared some of my algorithms with others just in case something happens to me.

I do hope to be paying myself though. Meaning there is one or more altcoins coming from my efforts.

Essentially a devcoin with 100% to miners? I prefer the idea of allocating coins minted to work or growth it wont change the long term incentive to mine especially if merge mined so that you leverage btc network strength for now.... I think we already have what we need just work to make the ones we have work. no need to make more.

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November 29, 2013, 07:22:21 AM
 #91

Sorry I don't want to comment further on designs of altcoin.

"Talk is cheap, show me the code" - Linus Torvalds.

If there are no further challenges to my upthread points, I will exit now. Thanks to all for the challenges, that is what I needed in order to verify my thought process.

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November 29, 2013, 07:24:29 AM
 #92

Could someone explain in layperson terms why it is not possible to figure out a key to solve all future hashes or blocks and create bitcoins at will?

Not sure if I phrased my question correctly but hopefully you know what I mean.
It could be possible if you knew the future of transactions, which is not probable. The problem is in the way the blocks stack up over time. If you knew the future you'd know the future.

Feel free to send along any spare floating point remainders: 1CVTqVbqHTw35xGKfp4vmxggKdkMVwswtr
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November 29, 2013, 07:27:19 AM
 #93

Could someone explain in layperson terms why it is not possible to figure out a key to solve all future hashes or blocks and create bitcoins at will?

Not sure if I phrased my question correctly but hopefully you know what I mean.
It could be possible if you knew the future of transactions, which is not probable. The problem is in the way the blocks stack up over time. If you knew the future you'd know the future.

I don't see how that would enable you to calculate the chain of hashes faster than your percentage of the network hashrate.

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November 29, 2013, 07:37:29 AM
 #94

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=349869.msg3754669#msg3754669
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=349869.msg3755466#msg3755466
(skip to the "Basically what it has boiled down ...")

Those are my rebuttals. They have not been refuted.

Can you guarantee that you know what source code every open source client in the world is running in 2040? Nonsense. Can you guarantee how they will react to an inconsistent rule choice in the block chain? How can you make such a guarantee? I suppose you think Gavin Andresen is a God.

Logic.

Add one more reason for the faster chain to win.

* because everyone will realize that the weaker chain has insufficient hash rate and could be gamed by the mining power that is behind the faster chain. That hash rate could also do things which are not protocol violations thus more difficult to detect in some cases. Thus fear will contribute to drive the convergence to the faster and stronger mining chain.

Edit:

Also if the attacker forks the coin supply curve (or other unwanted protocol change), he could also potentially add features that people want as another way to entice them to the faster (longer) chain. (note I am not thinking of launching an altcoin in this manner, so if ever it happens it isn't me)

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November 29, 2013, 08:13:52 AM
 #95

Can you guarantee that you know what source code every open source client in the world is running in 2040? Nonsense.

I would be interested to learn how your alt-coin solves this problem? Tell us more...

The only way I can think of, is that your coin is closed source and you distribute the binaries.



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November 29, 2013, 08:38:05 AM
 #96

Make the 50%+ attack much more unlikely. Allow that the non-mining clients will do what ever they can, but they can't control the mining with < 50% of the hash rate (at least not since I apparently found the solution to the recently published 33% selfish-mining attack, which I added in the comments section at hackingdistributed.com).

It is when there is an inconsistency in the mining, that the non-mining clients are potentially in disarray and have to make a choice. If it happened today, maybe the foundation could reign it in. Years from now, I don't know if they will retain the necessary level of iron-fisted control. And depending on such centralization is not resilient design.

I wouldn't do an altcoin that is closed-source. If you see that, it isn't me. No promises on the premine, except I wouldn't do a 10% premine or anything ridiculous. You have to fund things somehow.

I'd really prefer not to comment too much on vaporware. I hope to also encourage others to launch altcoins.

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November 29, 2013, 09:27:13 AM
 #97


anonymint (or others)

this thread is immensely helpful, appreciate the hostilities as it appeases my bipolar learning style.

My major concern with life on earth is total resource depletion and receding population, with a global economy built on infinite growth.

Things like "grow the money supply at 5% a year" are subtly predicated on that paradigm.

It's not an absolute position on my part, I have a lot of faith in technology, but also I see bifurcation of the species ongoing...in the boat is becoming an ever smaller proportion relative to not in the boat.

I'm sure there's some discussion of this elsewhere already so a link would be fine. Simple question is can we design a system that works in a global economy of diminishing resources and energy and shrinking population, that is actually favorable? Does any alt currency support this...


(also how can I check to see how many people are ignoring me?  Wink

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November 29, 2013, 09:37:55 AM
 #98

Could someone explain in layperson terms why it is not possible to figure out a key to solve all future hashes or blocks and create bitcoins at will?

Also, and I hope to be in topic, why do we need to try millions of hashes before finding the right one? Isn't there a way to create a mathematical way to just get the right hash on the first try?

If there is, nobody has found it yet (afawk). And there is a LOT of interest in cracking hashing algorithms because they are used in many sensitive applications. Quantum computing is one thing to keep an eye on though because quantum computers, who make use of the fact that electrons can be in several different states at the same time, for computing could be able to crack any hash within milliseconds. But then Bitcoin could move to other hashing algorithms that can not be cracked by quantum computers.

Older hashes have been broken. Typically the longer a hash is around, the more attacks on the hash are found. However, Bitcoin could change the hash in that case, so that really isn't a problem.

I am slightly mistaken. Without checkpoints that prevent a longer chain from going too far backwards in time, a broken SHA-256 could be a serious threat. However the community has many copies of the history, I think there have been some checkpoints, and I don't think many clients have an incentive to erase that history from the ledger.

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November 29, 2013, 09:50:39 AM
 #99

Could someone explain in layperson terms why it is not possible to figure out a key to solve all future hashes or blocks and create bitcoins at will?

Not sure if I phrased my question correctly but hopefully you know what I mean.

The tl;dr version is that the algorithms require so much processing that it is impossible to crack them due to the limits of thermodynamics (since energy cannot travel faster than light) so it is currently impossible to crack, and never will be impossible to crack, even when quantum computer emerge it would still remain on the realm of fantasy, even if someone would build a computer the size of earth it would take them millions of years to come close.








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November 29, 2013, 10:13:02 AM
 #100

I am slightly mistaken. Without checkpoints that prevent a longer chain from going too far backwards in time, a broken SHA-256 could be a serious threat.

If Sha-256 is broken i think the coin is screwed anyway. I mean even private addresses will be a lot less secure.
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