Will bitcoin = public sector workers rioting??

[User705]

Bitcoin is just a currency.  It's also a currency that allows resistance in cases where government oversteps.  Currently it is being used by the Chinese to resist capital controls.  Maybe it gets used when government wants to tax 99% of your income.  Or it might be used to resist confiscation of wealth based on race, religion, or sexual orientation.  Or do you believe all governments to be infallible at all times?

[1714660411]

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[cryptoanarchist]

There are lots of pasrasites like Hawker who can make excuses for why its necessary to rob people to prop up the state. They are parasites, after all. They don't know how to create their own wealth, and think they are entitled to yours.

When cryptocoins make it harder for them to steal from you, they will come up with new justifications to outright rob you - violently, if necessary. Guys like Hawker think there is nothing wrong with holding a gun to your head to take your money, because they feel 100% entitled to it.

That's really what this thread is about - what will these nutjobs do when the state can no longer collect revenues for them?

[Hawker]

Bitcoin is just a currency.  It's also a currency that allows resistance in cases where government oversteps.  Currently it is being used by the Chinese to resist capital controls.  Maybe it gets used when government wants to tax 99% of your income.  Or it might be used to resist confiscation of wealth based on race, religion, or sexual orientation.  Or do you believe all governments to be infallible at all times?

In point of fact, the Chinese are using it as a hedge against the inevitable fall of the Yuan.  The Yuan is overvalued and not convertible.  Between now and 2015, it will become fully convertible and fall in value.  The Chinese are investing in anything that protects them from a 10% fall in their savings.  A look at fiatleaks.com doesnt' suggest the money is being converted back into fiat.  The rising prices also suggest the "hedge" analysis is correct.

[Hawker]

Its all common sense measures.  Apart from the offshore bank thing, I don't think you can point to anything that doesn't catch Bitcoin as easily as it catches cash.  So we are in agreement - Bitcoin will be used to evade tax by people who now use cash to evade tax.  Given that its not fully anonymous, it may even be more traceable than cash.

yeah, we agree, but I think evasion will increase.

very few people use cash today.

people pay through the banking system, which is completely monitored.

bitcoin could empower people to evade tax

Which is a good thing, because the nation state is dying.

I guess where we differ is in perspective.  I look from the point of view of a company and Bitcoin is just a currency from that point of view.  There is no way I would risk losing my business to evade taxes as a decent business supports you for a lifetime while being imprisoned and losing your right to be a company director screws you for a lifetime. 

I completely agree. Govt is pure violence. So its much easier to pay your taxes, and have an easy life especially if you earn good money. if you're successful then you really have no choice but to comply.

Humanity is violent by nature.  A good government has a system called separation of powers which reduces violence to the low levels we enjoy in the West today.  Of course, it can be improved on.  But the replacement will also be violent as that is the nature of what we are.  So the only question is, do you have something better?

[User705]

Bitcoin is just a currency.  It's also a currency that allows resistance in cases where government oversteps.  Currently it is being used by the Chinese to resist capital controls.  Maybe it gets used when government wants to tax 99% of your income.  Or it might be used to resist confiscation of wealth based on race, religion, or sexual orientation.  Or do you believe all governments to be infallible at all times?

In point of fact, the Chinese are using it as a hedge against the inevitable fall of the Yuan.  The Yuan is overvalued and not convertible.  Between now and 2015, it will become fully convertible and fall in value.  The Chinese are investing in anything that protects them from a 10% fall in their savings.  A look at fiatleaks.com doesnt' suggest the money is being converted back into fiat.  The rising prices also suggest the "hedge" analysis is correct.

Exactly.  Government is playing around with money and citizens wealth and bitcoin is helping them resist.  And it's even legal for now.

[Hawker]

...snip...

Humanity is violent by nature.  A good government has a system called separation of powers which reduces violence to the low levels we enjoy in the West today.  Of course, it can be improved on.  But the replacement will also be violent as that is the nature of what we are.  So the only question is, do you have something better?

Humans only become violent when they are oppressed.

I want 7 billion individuals governing themselves. No tax. Just leave people alone.

Really?

This is an old discussion on these forums but you need to think about 2 things: (1) oppression requires violence so if humans are only violent when oppressed, why are the oppressors violent? and (2) if you have no tax, how do you pay for social services like preventing child abuse? 

[Hawker]

noob2001:

http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html

Violence has never been lower.  It might surprise you to find that the serious killing in the 20th century was carried out by people trying to create perfect societies.  I believe that a perfect society is impossible so any effort to do it will result in intense violence as ideology meets humanity.

The notion that a private charity can enter Muslim homes and check for female genital mutilation without using violence is laughable.  You need a state to prevent child abuse.

You failed to answer the question; if only oppressed people are violent, why are the oppressors violent?

[cryptoanarchist]

Bitcoin is anarchist.

Exactly. A lot of people seem to miss that here. Bitcoin's roots trace back to Timothy May and the CryptoAnarchist Manifesto  -it was designed for the purpose of anarchy, not just as a better paypal like the Hawkers of the world would try to have you believe.

[Hawker]

Bitcoin is anarchist.

Exactly. A lot of people seem to miss that here. Bitcoin's roots trace back to Timothy May and the CryptoAnarchist Manifesto  -it was designed for the purpose of anarchy, not just as a better paypal like the Hawkers of the world would try to have you believe.

Ah but your logic has a weakness.  If an anarchist makes a better spade, is that spade "anarchist?"  Bitcoin is a better Western Union.  That doesn't make it any more "anarchist" than a spade, whoever designed it.

[Hawker]

noob2001:

http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html

Violence has never been lower.  It might surprise you to find that the serious killing in the 20th century was carried out by people trying to create perfect societies.  I believe that a perfect society is impossible so any effort to do it will result in intense violence as ideology meets humanity.

The notion that a private charity can enter Muslim homes and check for female genital mutilation without using violence is laughable.  You need a state to prevent child abuse.

You failed to answer the question; if only oppressed people are violent, why are the oppressors violent?

Iraq? Afghanistan? Libya? Riots happening all over the world? London riots?

I think violence is getting worst. All created by government.

Governments cannot stop gential mutation, unless you want teachers to check kids at school?
How can such disgusting acts be regulated? They can't.

The elites oppress people because they are stupid, and they think taxing people is the right thing to do.

So, when the facts say your assertion is wrong, you say "Sod the facts" and repeat the assertion.  That's fine but it does mean we are done doesn't it? 

[Hawker]

noob2001:

http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html

Violence has never been lower.  It might surprise you to find that the serious killing in the 20th century was carried out by people trying to create perfect societies.  I believe that a perfect society is impossible so any effort to do it will result in intense violence as ideology meets humanity.

The notion that a private charity can enter Muslim homes and check for female genital mutilation without using violence is laughable.  You need a state to prevent child abuse.

You failed to answer the question; if only oppressed people are violent, why are the oppressors violent?

Iraq? Afghanistan? Libya? Riots happening all over the world? London riots?

I think violence is getting worst. All created by government.

Governments cannot stop gential mutation, unless you want teachers to check kids at school?
How can such disgusting acts be regulated? They can't.

The elites oppress people because they are stupid, and they think taxing people is the right thing to do.

So, when the facts say your assertion is wrong, you say "Sod the facts" and repeat the assertion.  That's fine but it does mean we are done doesn't it? 

Considering the world is floating on a sea of debt, what happens if the debt bubble pops? violence will increase.....

you want facts, look up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

With respect, its not really on for you to ask me to look up stuff when you say you will not accept reality.  Violence is down.  That is a fact that is really happening in the world we all live in.  If you can't accept that fact, what is there to be said? 

As I said, we are done aren't we?

[Hawker]

noob2001:

http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html

Violence has never been lower.  It might surprise you to find that the serious killing in the 20th century was carried out by people trying to create perfect societies.  I believe that a perfect society is impossible so any effort to do it will result in intense violence as ideology meets humanity.

The notion that a private charity can enter Muslim homes and check for female genital mutilation without using violence is laughable.  You need a state to prevent child abuse.

You failed to answer the question; if only oppressed people are violent, why are the oppressors violent?

Iraq? Afghanistan? Libya? Riots happening all over the world? London riots?

I think violence is getting worst. All created by government.

Governments cannot stop gential mutation, unless you want teachers to check kids at school?
How can such disgusting acts be regulated? They can't.

The elites oppress people because they are stupid, and they think taxing people is the right thing to do.

So, when the facts say your assertion is wrong, you say "Sod the facts" and repeat the assertion.  That's fine but it does mean we are done doesn't it? 

Considering the world is floating on a sea of debt, what happens if the debt bubble pops? violence will increase.....

you want facts, look up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

With respect, its not really on for you to ask me to look up stuff when you say you will not accept reality.  Violence is down.  That is a fact that is really happening in the world we all live in.  If you can't accept that fact, what is there to be said? 

As I said, we are done aren't we?

sure. if its past your bedtime, then good night

Its not but good night anyway

[Rassah]

Bitcoin will be used to evade tax by people who now use cash to evade tax.

People who use cash tend to evade taxes
Cash is a pain to use and secure, and is impossible to use online, so not a lot of people use cash.
Bitcoin is like cash from anonymity standpoint, but is as easy to use, store, and use online as bank and credit card money.
More people will use "cash" with Bitcoin, therefore more people will evade tax.

[Hawker]

Bitcoin will be used to evade tax by people who now use cash to evade tax.

People who use cash tend to evade taxes
Cash is a pain to use and secure, and is impossible to use online, so not a lot of people use cash.
Bitcoin is like cash from anonymity standpoint, but is as easy to use, store, and use online as bank and credit card money.
More people will use "cash" with Bitcoin, therefore more people will evade tax.

I agree with you.  Particularly things like gambling taxes will simply be unenforceable. 

My point was that a slight rebalancing of the tax system from declared income to taxes on sales and on property is not a fundamental thread to provision of social services through a state.  The public sector will tick along fine under Bitcoin as it does under fiat.

[mgburks77]

noob2001:

http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html

Violence has never been lower.  It might surprise you to find that the serious killing in the 20th century was carried out by people trying to create perfect societies.  I believe that a perfect society is impossible so any effort to do it will result in intense violence as ideology meets humanity.

The notion that a private charity can enter Muslim homes and check for female genital mutilation without using violence is laughable.  You need a state to prevent child abuse.

You failed to answer the question; if only oppressed people are violent, why are the oppressors violent?

I don't take issue with your assertion that the idea that only oppressed people are violent is mistaken but I must point out that the idea that violence has never been lower is not correct. There are several serious challenges to that assertion, which has been made by such luminaries as Steven Pinker, the evolutionary psychologist, recently in his book "The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined (Viking)".
http://www.zcommunications.org/steven-pinker-on-the-alleged-decline-of-violence-by-edward-s-herman-and-david-peterson.html
or
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/john-gray-steven-pinker-violence-review/#.UbDojdI3B9s

[Hawker]

noob2001:

http://www.ted.com/talks/steven_pinker_on_the_myth_of_violence.html

Violence has never been lower.  It might surprise you to find that the serious killing in the 20th century was carried out by people trying to create perfect societies.  I believe that a perfect society is impossible so any effort to do it will result in intense violence as ideology meets humanity.

The notion that a private charity can enter Muslim homes and check for female genital mutilation without using violence is laughable.  You need a state to prevent child abuse.

You failed to answer the question; if only oppressed people are violent, why are the oppressors violent?

I don't take issue with your assertion that the idea that only oppressed people are violent is mistaken but I must point out that the idea that violence has never been lower is not correct. There are several serious challenges to that assertion, which has been made by such luminaries as Steven Pinker, the evolutionary psychologist, recently in his book "The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined (Viking)".
http://www.zcommunications.org/steven-pinker-on-the-alleged-decline-of-violence-by-edward-s-herman-and-david-peterson.html
or
http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/john-gray-steven-pinker-violence-review/#.UbDojdI3B9s

Interesting.  OK - the Pinker quote has to go.  Turns out he over-egged the pudding.  But the point I was trying to make that the serious killing in the 20th century was carried out by people trying to create perfect societies remains a valid point.  Anyone peddling utopia has a greater probability of having a scheme that requires mass killings than of having a scheme that will indeed result in us all hugging as we sing "Kumbaya."

Thanks for the links.

[User705]

Interesting.  OK - the Pinker quote has to go.  Turns out he over-egged the pudding.  But the point I was trying to make that the serious killing in the 20th century was carried out by people trying to create perfect societies remains a valid point.  Anyone peddling utopia has a greater probability of having a scheme that requires mass killings than of having a scheme that will indeed result in us all hugging as we sing "Kumbaya."

Thanks for the links.

So true and yet when the discussion is about providing every little possible government service including medical service to drunk ankle breakers you don't think that perhaps that is the exact same attempts at creating an unachievable utopia of every problem being taken care of for everyone.  Just the modern twist to it.

[Hawker]

Interesting.  OK - the Pinker quote has to go.  Turns out he over-egged the pudding.  But the point I was trying to make that the serious killing in the 20th century was carried out by people trying to create perfect societies remains a valid point.  Anyone peddling utopia has a greater probability of having a scheme that requires mass killings than of having a scheme that will indeed result in us all hugging as we sing "Kumbaya."

Thanks for the links.

So true and yet when the discussion is about providing every little possible government service including medical service to drunk ankle breakers you don't think that perhaps that is the exact same attempts at creating an unachievable utopia of every problem being taken care of for everyone.  Just the modern twist to it.

A health system that takes into account that we are prone to violence and drunkenness is the exact opposite of utopian thinking. 

[User705]

A world where all your medical needs are met irregardless of resources, payment for such services or even responsibility for causing those medical problems yourself.  You don't want to say it's an imperfect solution to a problem you are actually saying it's the opposite if an unrealistic utopian scheme?  BTW the eugenics utopia I think you are referring to was caused by eventual lack of funds or perhaps even a simple desire not to pay the escalating costs for the exact free health care you see no problems with today.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/T-4_Euthanasia_Program

[Rassah]

A health system that takes into account that we are prone to violence and drunkenness is the exact opposite of utopian thinking.  

A health system that takes into account that we are prone to violence, drunkedness, and not being responsible enough to set up our own insurance, and punishes such people SEVERELY by allowing them to "slip through the cracks," isn't much of a utopia, either