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Author Topic: Why Bitcoin is not as global as you might think  (Read 1644 times)
poelling92
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November 29, 2013, 07:47:28 PM
 #21

The fact that you could get 1 Bitcoin so cheaply in the past, made it look like a good investment even if on papers it was not. Same thing happens when you take a chance at lottery. On paper lottery is one of the worse investments you could ever make, people still make them because the amount you pay upfront is tiny compared to the amount you can be making if you win. Try to sell a lottery ticket for 1 Million dollars with more than 1 million times better winning odds than the ticket you sell for 1$ and chances are no one will buy it (even though it makes more sense from a risk return POV).


Seems your prone to investing on any of the alt coins, cheap and no infrastructure behind, just promise of possible future. Will you choose the cheapest coin ? Will it be lowest risk?
JayB (OP)
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November 29, 2013, 10:09:53 PM
 #22

Risk & Return are two side of the same coin. You mentioned early adopters were taking HIGH risk for a potentially high return, but what were they risking? a couple of cents of electricity bill? I don't call that a high risk.

If you want to buy a Bitcoin today it will cost you more than 1000$, now this, I would surely not call a low risk. Think about it....

You clearly don't understand the concept of risk.

I think I've just lost patience for this conversation.  I'll be moving on now.

I do, as a matter of fact I have a degree in finance. I must admit your previous post makes sense, but we are just looking at things from different angles.

For me buying 5$ worth of Bitcoins when each was at 1$ is less risky than buying it when each is at 1000$. Now if I want to give you the full explanation it would probably take much more than a mere forum post. Long story short, when you know total Bitcoins will never reach more than 21M units, you know that each Bitcoin at 1$ has more potential of going up in value as than if each is selling at 1000$.

In calculating risk vs. return you have to take into consideration two factors: the magnitude of the upside and the probability of the upside (and downside too as a matter of fact). If you take those two into consideration and do the analysis, I see it would make more sense investing in Bitcoin at its earlier stages...

We can talk more about that if you want, but it seems that you don't....boo!


The fact that you could get 1 Bitcoin so cheaply in the past, made it look like a good investment even if on papers it was not. Same thing happens when you take a chance at lottery. On paper lottery is one of the worse investments you could ever make, people still make them because the amount you pay upfront is tiny compared to the amount you can be making if you win. Try to sell a lottery ticket for 1 Million dollars with more than 1 million times better winning odds than the ticket you sell for 1$ and chances are no one will buy it (even though it makes more sense from a risk return POV).


Seems your prone to investing on any of the alt coins, cheap and no infrastructure behind, just promise of possible future. Will you choose the cheapest coin ? Will it be lowest risk?

Guys...guys...common! I don't have to explicitly mention all the assumptions I have in my head I'm assuming you guys are smart enough to figure things out by yourselves.

There are several types of risks at play. In the situation you are mentioning, you are adding a type of risk in addition to the ones that are already there.
DannyHamilton
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November 29, 2013, 10:25:18 PM
 #23

You mentioned early adopters were taking HIGH risk for a potentially high return, but what were they risking? a couple of cents of electricity bill? I don't call that a high risk.

In calculating risk vs. return you have to take into consideration two factors: the magnitude of the upside and the probability of the upside (and downside too as a matter of fact). If you take those two into consideration and do the analysis, I see it would make more sense investing in Bitcoin at its earlier stages...

We can talk more about that if you want, but it seems that you don't....boo!

Huh

Now you're talking about return.

Certainly, the potential return might have been higher for those who were involved earlier. That's already stated in the part about the "HIGH risk for a potentially high return".

However, the fact that a there is a chance for a high return does not change the fact that there is also a high risk.

Back then, there was only 1 exchange (MtGox).
Back then there was only 1 wallet (Bitcoin-Qt).
Back then nobody knew what governments thought of it.
Back then there was almost nowhere to use it.
Back then someone could crash the market by selling a few thousand dollars worth.
Back then, nobody knew if it would catch on or not.

Now, there are multiple exchanges.
Now there are multiple wallets.
Now the several governments have stated that they are not against it.
Now there are many places to use it
Now a sale of $10,000 doesn't even register as a dip in the market.
Now it is clear that it has caught on.

You can't be intellectually honest and say that risk is higher now than it was then.  You are either intentionally trying to mislead people, or you don't understand the concept of risk.  The fact that you claim to have a degree in finance does not explain why you don't have a good grasp on the concept of risk.

Are you seriously trying to say that it is more risky now to invest $100,000 in bitcoin than it would have been to invest $100,000 in bitcoin in late 2011?
JayB (OP)
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November 29, 2013, 10:53:20 PM
 #24

You mentioned early adopters were taking HIGH risk for a potentially high return, but what were they risking? a couple of cents of electricity bill? I don't call that a high risk.

In calculating risk vs. return you have to take into consideration two factors: the magnitude of the upside and the probability of the upside (and downside too as a matter of fact). If you take those two into consideration and do the analysis, I see it would make more sense investing in Bitcoin at its earlier stages...

We can talk more about that if you want, but it seems that you don't....boo!

Huh

Now you're talking about return.

Certainly, the potential return might have been higher for those who were involved earlier. That's already stated in the part about the "HIGH risk for a potentially high return".

However, the fact that a there is a chance for a high return does not change the fact that there is also a high risk.

Back then, there was only 1 exchange (MtGox).
Back then there was only 1 wallet (Bitcoin-Qt).
Back then nobody knew what governments thought of it.
Back then there was almost nowhere to use it.
Back then someone could crash the market by selling a few thousand dollars worth.
Back then, nobody knew if it would catch on or not.

Now, there are multiple exchanges.
Now there are multiple wallets.
Now the several governments have stated that they are not against it.
Now there are many places to use it
Now a sale of $10,000 doesn't even register as a dip in the market.
Now it is clear that it has caught on.

You can't be intellectually honest and say that risk is higher now than it was then.  You are either intentionally trying to mislead people, or you don't understand the concept of risk.  The fact that you claim to have a degree in finance does not explain why you don't have a good grasp on the concept of risk.

Are you seriously trying to say that it is more risky now to invest $100,000 in bitcoin than it would have been to invest $100,000 in bitcoin in late 2011?

I am thinking, maybe because I have an advanced understanding of the topic I dont explicitly mention the basics. Same way if you are debating with a physicist about the laws of quantum mechanics he will assume you know about the laws of gravity.

Here's how I would explain my thoughts to someone who has no idea about risk & return:

Suppose when Bitcoin was at 1$ per unit probability of success was 5%
and the potential return IF it got successful is 100,000% (I can give you a more complicated model with a probability distribution either continuous or not...but I will keep it simple with these numbers)

In which case, potential payoff is 5% * 100,000% = 5,000% (Sounds like a good investment)
You can even go further by considering different scenarios or even calculate the break-even point for each scenario but again, I'll keep it simple and stop here. For the only purpose of this post is to make my point clear once and for all.

NOW suppose you are doing the same calculation for Bitcoin today, considering each bitcoin is 1000$ per unit, then probability of more success = 80% (notice how probability of success went up significantly) and potential return IF it got more successful is 500% (notice however the decrease in that number).

In which case potential payoff is now 80% * 500% = 400% (lower than the previous 5,000%)

[these are my own chain of thoughts, and may not be reality....but I'm trying to walk you through how some people might think about it in terms of risk vs. return]

Now I agree I might have used wrong wording in my previous post, would have been more accurate saying "less risk and less return, but return goes down in higher magnitude than risk, making the overall equation less attractive" but didn't wana sound too fancy :p

Clear?
PenAndPaper
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November 30, 2013, 11:40:23 AM
 #25

2- I can ask them to buy Bitcoins in the open market, their response will be: Why would I pay thousands of dollars for Bitcoins if I can't even use them here?

And that's how you see litecoin climbing at 40$  Tongue Tongue
Imagine the psychological barrier if bitcoin hits 10000$  Tongue Tongue
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