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Author Topic: Please Read!! Help Stop This Madness.  (Read 7445 times)
AdaptQuickly
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December 02, 2013, 07:39:06 PM
Last edit: December 04, 2013, 09:43:50 AM by Raoul Duke
 #1

I'm going to make this as straight forward as possible.

About Me:

Noel Arteaga
Illinois State University
Managerial Economics/ Business Administration

Graduate Dec 14, 2013


I am currently finishing up my undergraduate degree in Managerial Economics.

I have a week and a half to go (WHOOP).

I have focused my studies this past year on Bitcoin.

My senior project is on Bitcoin.

The whole economics department knows me as a Bitcoin fanatic.







Here is the problem:

The entire economics department refuses to accept that bitcoin has any credibility.

The professor who is overseeing my senior project is constantly discrediting it via corrections on my work in progress.

I have gone to entire economics department to talk about the economics of bitcoin and the outcome is always the same:

 They see bitcoin as a fad with no credibility.





The department keeps arguing against bitcoin with these points.

1) Bitcoin is deflationary and it will cause it to fail. (facepalm)

2) Bitcoin is doomed to fail because people hoard it instead of spending it. No Economy exist.(facepalm x2)

3) Nobody uses Bitcoin for anything (Not Mainstream=Not real???) (Facepalm x 1,000,000)



My Goal: Raise Awareness about Bitcoin. Starting with the economics department and then expanding to the whole campus then the whole town.


I will presenting my senior project next week with the hopes of raising awareness.

I have also been putting up flyers with websites that inform people about bitcoin. The feedback from the student body has been overwhelming! I get roughly 20 emails a week from people that see the flyers and wish to learn more! Currently working on a twitter feed and facebook page.

My biggest piece of evidence: I have established an online wallet and provided the address to whole economics department and information on how to check it.

I hope to raise awareness by getting people to send donations with messages supporting Bitcoin, messages that help dis-spell the BS people that "know economics" think about Bitcoin.

 It not about the amount of donation its about the messages that can be attached to the transaction!

I want to shove it in their face (in a passive way) that not only is Bitcoin alive but growing and growing fast. I want to show the world the power of bitcoin!



Bitcoin/Message Address: 1Sk9iEy1UN1q5TkzmX71ayxy2kQEmkb84 

Please Keep the messages clean, I want bitcoin to seem as credible as possible.






This is my attempt to prove who I am. If you have any questions please PM me!

http://s10.postimg.org/dvaxnjgid/Classes.jpg
http://s9.postimg.org/6sdjgbjyz/image.jpg





Tip Jar: 169kfp3JMJMHpUQWLqE3DiTV3JfRDT8zZ9 Thanks!!
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December 02, 2013, 07:49:46 PM
 #2

I have gone to entire economics department to talk about the economics of bitcoin and the outcome is always the same:

 They see bitcoin as a fad with no credibility.





The department keeps arguing against bitcoin with these points.

1) Bitcoin is deflationary and it will cause it to fail. (facepalm)

2) Bitcoin is doomed to fail because people hoard it instead of spending it. No Economy exist.(facepalm x2)

3) Nobody uses Bitcoin for anything (Not Mainstream=Not real???) (Facepalm x 1,000,000)



My Goal: Raise Awareness about Bitcoin. Starting with the economics department and then expanding to the whole campus then the whole town.
I don't want those people to accept or understand Bitcoin until it's too late.

They are part of the propaganda arm of the system that traps kids into debt slavery to support their lifestyle; they deserve to miss the boat.
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December 02, 2013, 07:53:06 PM
 #3

I understand where you are coming from. I'm currently working on getting an image of the account onto the TVs that are on a loop displaying various news updates. I want the student body to become aware of the impact that bitcoin can bring to the world!

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December 02, 2013, 11:33:30 PM
 #4

Frankly your Economics department is correct in each of it's criticisms, you may of course point to a few threads of real trade that other Zealots like yourself engage in as a kind of Cargo-cult activity trying to 'summon' an economy out of a deflationary currency. 

But this dose not a real economy make, most people claiming to spend BTC immediately buy replacement BTCs when ever they spend them (making a net dollar purchase), or are just creaming off some of their wealth increase.  Lastly you have Mining equipment purchases which are clearly just an attempt to get more BTC's and should be seen as a COST of running the system, not it's economy.

If you are not able to understand that BTC is a speculative mania and not a currency then frankly you deserve to be flunked in Economics.

 
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December 02, 2013, 11:52:07 PM
 #5

Regarding number 1, 2, and 3.  SilkRoad proves your point as one counter example. People spent because they wanted something.

Not enough time to reply more right now, but they plainly are not aware of the additional uses for bit coin.
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December 03, 2013, 12:09:25 AM
 #6

Your department makes some real arguments about bitcoin and in order to answer those arguments you ask for donations.
Sorry but it doesn't make any sense...  Roll Eyes
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December 03, 2013, 03:56:04 AM
 #7

Here's another one I came across today. Traditional economists just don't get it, do they.

http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2013/12/fair-price-bitcoin-zero.html

Eric Tymoigne, Ph.D. is Assistant Professor of Economics at Lewis and Clark College and Research Associate at The Levy Economics Institute.
 His research expertise is in: central banking, monetary economics, and macroeconomics.

Looking to review Bitcoin / Crypto mining Hardware.
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December 03, 2013, 05:53:04 AM
 #8

Tell them that alt-coins add an inflationary aspect to cryptos, so the deflationary problem is solved.

That's why people in the future would prefer to spend less good crypto moneys according to Gresham's law and not spend/keep as a store of value their better crypto moneys (which will become less good and which will be better - this is still not quite clear, so far Bitcoin is in the lead of being better money as it's a pioneer crypto).

And that's when there'll be enocomy and real exchange of money for goods and services.

So, basically, all their arguments are based on bitcoin being 'deflationary', alt-coins are here to combat that, and successfully, as there are dozens of them now. And if there is not enough alt-coins, more alt-coins can always be invented, just like central banks can print more money, also at a few clicks on the keyboard.
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December 03, 2013, 06:52:40 AM
 #9

Frankly your Economics department is correct in each of it's criticisms, you may of course point to a few threads of real trade that other Zealots like yourself engage in as a kind of Cargo-cult activity trying to 'summon' an economy out of a deflationary currency. 

But this dose not a real economy make, most people claiming to spend BTC immediately buy replacement BTCs when ever they spend them (making a net dollar purchase), or are just creaming off some of their wealth increase.  Lastly you have Mining equipment purchases which are clearly just an attempt to get more BTC's and should be seen as a COST of running the system, not it's economy.

If you are not able to understand that BTC is a speculative mania and not a currency then frankly you deserve to be flunked in Economics.
This is very true. I know that anecdotes don't mean much, but for quite a long time, that is exactly what I did... until I started getting a monthly paycheck in bitcoins. Until you've received a paycheck in bitcoin, it is hard to think of Bitcoin as a currency. Getting a bitcoin paycheck changes all of that, as if some switch gets flipped. So, what you need to do is come up with a way flip that switch for people.

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December 03, 2013, 07:06:46 AM
 #10

Bitcoin is fundamentally threatening to neo-Keynesian economists and those who favor left political stances.  Paul Krugman for example leads the NYT in a nearly single voice of dissent with his ridicule of bitcoin.  He, for example is constantly calling BTC 'deflationary' while calling the USD either stable or occasionally 'slightly deflationary' (lol).  I imagine your profs are of a similar mindset.

We DO know bitcoin is most likely in a speculative bubble at the moment.  If it is not it is changing history.

What we do NOT know yet is your professors are wrong in the weight of their bias.  I think they are.  But only time will tell.They are most certainly right about some of their stances on btc.
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December 03, 2013, 07:17:33 AM
 #11

Inform them that your Senior Project is about the experimental aspect of Bitcoin: nobody is 100% sure how this is gonna work out, it's beta (0.9xx), yet its being tested right now all over the world.

Then start the presentation. You'll be forgiven of all your future sins, like being a fanatic.
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December 03, 2013, 07:28:25 AM
 #12

Hi - Perhaps you would have better luck and have less grounds for attack if you take a more long term view and focus your research on the idea of cryptocurrencies in general, as a superior financial technology - rather than bitcoin specifically.

The arguments about it being deflationary are therefore voided as that's specific to bitcoin. You can argue along the lines of "when" bitcoin fails, it will be replaced by something superior that improves upon its problems, as in its current form its kind of a beta version...and subsequent versions will entail further evolution of the technology until we have a system that is ready for mass uptake.

I'm not saying I think bitcoin is doomed to fail...but your tutors obviously do! So for the purposes of your project, if you want a higher mark you won't get anywhere by complaining to your professors that they are simply wrong about bitcoin. It will just annoy them and further cement the view they already have. Instead, you'd need to find arguments that are not direct contradictions of their own opinions, make them think a bit more long term about the technological and economic impact of this type of technology - etc.

The less you mention the word bitcoin, the better. There is definitely a game to be placed in academia.

good luck with your project Smiley


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December 03, 2013, 08:15:02 AM
 #13

let the establishment drown in their own ignorance. theres a reason these people teach at these institutions: because theyve already been brainwashed by the system they need to keep selling to younger generations or suffer the consequences of being out a job and on the streets where true sellouts deserve to be.
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December 03, 2013, 08:24:58 AM
 #14

You can tell them as part of your research I bought a game with Bitcoin and I plan to buy gold/silver then link them several hundred stores so they can shut up Cheesy that said, I've given up arguing with people who refuse to see evidence right in front of them.
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December 03, 2013, 08:36:31 AM
 #15

If you are not able to understand that BTC is a speculative mania and not a currency then frankly you deserve to be flunked in Economics.

Emotional argument, garbage.  1) All investments are speculation. 2) I'll bet you think this "internet mania" will die soon, too.
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December 03, 2013, 08:48:54 AM
 #16


The department keeps arguing against bitcoin with these points.

1) Bitcoin is deflationary and it will cause it to fail. (facepalm)

2) Bitcoin is doomed to fail because people hoard it instead of spending it. No Economy exist.(facepalm x2)

3) Nobody uses Bitcoin for anything (Not Mainstream=Not real???) (Facepalm x 1,000,000)



Maybe you can quote one of the papers on how much Bitcoin is currently in circulation as a medium of exchange and compare that with how much Bitcoin is currently being used for store of value.

If you do, also post it here; I am interested to know.
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December 03, 2013, 09:09:13 AM
 #17

If this really is a final year project, then the project must already have a hypothesis or at least a research direction, right? I cannot see that anywhere in your post. The only message I am getting is that you want to convince your economics department that bitcoin will succeed.

If that is what you believe, then argue your way out with economic theories, market observations or historical data. You don't seem to be doing that... However, I don't think you have a strong argument (in economic theories). Besides, professors will wiggle their way out with even more obscure theories.

I believe your effort will be better served if you take another direction:
To assess what kind of equity is Bitcoin by comparing it to others such as currency, gold, stocks, real estate...
Only after that can you evaluate it's future success or failure (with strong supporting arguments)

Quote
My biggest piece of evidence: I have established an online wallet and provided the address to whole economics department and information on how to check it.

Why don't you point the "biggest piece of evidence" to a charity address or well known bitcoin organisation donation address, instead of your own?
An amorous cow-herder
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December 03, 2013, 09:50:14 AM
 #18

Maybe you can quote one of the papers on how much Bitcoin is currently in circulation as a medium of exchange and compare that with how much Bitcoin is currently being used for store of value.

If you do, also post it here; I am interested to know.
Well, there is blockchain.info, currently about 80k transactions per day or close to 1tps. Probably Satoshi-Dice is responsible for a large amount of the transactions. For comparison, according to bitcoin.it Paypal has 46 tps, Visa about 4000 tps.
So, even including satoshi dice, the bitcoin network doesnt do a lot of transactions compared to PayPal, and even less compared to credit card companies.
Another amusing thing is to look at the amount of "real" money in the exchanges. ~50k BTC (less than 0.5% of current available coins) could crash all exchanges into single digit dollar ranges.
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December 03, 2013, 10:01:15 AM
 #19

Quote
My biggest piece of evidence: I have established an online wallet and provided the address to whole economics department and information on how to check it.

Why don't you point the "biggest piece of evidence" to a charity address or well known bitcoin organisation donation address, instead of your own?

There are already about 1000 people with bitcoin holdings of over $1 million. We are the biggest piece of evidence. Month ago the number was barely 150.
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December 03, 2013, 10:13:47 AM
 #20

There are already about 1000 people with bitcoin holdings of over $1 million. We are the biggest piece of evidence. Month ago the number was barely 150.
Well, theoreticly, yes. But if the first 150 would all cash out at the same time the remaining 850 would no longer be millionares.
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December 03, 2013, 10:35:00 AM
 #21

The problem is you are trying to convince people whose lives depend on fiat theories that their entire worldview is wrong. That just is not going to happen until bitcoin impacts their personal finances or some similar event.

What I would do, if you truly believe in bitcoin, is to buy up enough to live on the rising price. Then quit, and establish yourself as an independent bitcoin expert. Ten years down the road, meet up with your profs and laugh in their face.

Look inside yourself, and you will see that you are the bubble.
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December 03, 2013, 10:50:40 AM
 #22


The department keeps arguing against bitcoin with these points.

1) Bitcoin is deflationary and it will cause it to fail. (facepalm)

2) Bitcoin is doomed to fail because people hoard it instead of spending it. No Economy exist.(facepalm x2)

3) Nobody uses Bitcoin for anything (Not Mainstream=Not real???) (Facepalm x 1,000,000)





Replace those "bitcoin" words with "gold" and turn it back to them

To be honest, all the professors I knew in my economy department are just not able to understand it.

The real problem behind the scene is: When they hear the word "money", they become panic and lost most of their ability to think, they start to seek some powerful forces that back it, without that force, they feel extremely insecure about its value

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December 03, 2013, 10:59:47 AM
 #23

The Powerful Force in this case is We The People. And that terrifies them.

Look inside yourself, and you will see that you are the bubble.
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December 03, 2013, 11:16:22 AM
 #24


3) Nobody uses Bitcoin for anything (Not Mainstream=Not real???) (Facepalm x 1,000,000)

Replace those "bitcoin" words with "gold" and turn it back to them
Granted, i would also say that most of the worth of gold is more or less symbolic, but gold is actually usefull.
Bitcoin can be usefull as well, sure, assuming it is actually used as a transaction medium. But so far its only potentially usefull.
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December 03, 2013, 11:26:58 AM
 #25


3) Nobody uses Bitcoin for anything (Not Mainstream=Not real???) (Facepalm x 1,000,000)

Replace those "bitcoin" words with "gold" and turn it back to them
Granted, i would also say that most of the worth of gold is more or less symbolic, but gold is actually usefull.
Bitcoin can be usefull as well, sure, assuming it is actually used as a transaction medium. But so far its only potentially usefull.
It's making a lot of us rich. That's useful. The currency part will come, in time, maybe around the 100k mark.

How much of mainstream speculating actually has practical value?

Look inside yourself, and you will see that you are the bubble.
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December 03, 2013, 11:48:29 AM
 #26

Granted, i would also say that most of the worth of gold is more or less symbolic, but gold is actually usefull.
Bitcoin can be usefull as well, sure, assuming it is actually used as a transaction medium. But so far its only potentially usefull.
It's making a lot of us rich. That's useful.
Yeah, for the ones becoming rich, obviously. Not arguing about that.

The currency part will come, in time, maybe around the 100k mark.
So, in other words, you are saying the bitcoin network is worth than Apple, MS, IBM and Oracle combined?
Or worth a lot more than E-Bay (which own Paypal), Visa and Mastercard combined?

How much of mainstream speculating actually has practical value?
None, aside from making some people rich and others poor. But we already had that point above.
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December 03, 2013, 12:27:03 PM
 #27

The currency part will come, in time, maybe around the 100k mark.
So, in other words, you are saying the bitcoin network is worth than Apple, MS, IBM and Oracle combined?
Or worth a lot more than E-Bay (which own Paypal), Visa and Mastercard combined?
Will be*. Yes.

Look inside yourself, and you will see that you are the bubble.
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December 03, 2013, 12:50:18 PM
 #28

The currency part will come, in time, maybe around the 100k mark.
So, in other words, you are saying the bitcoin network is worth than Apple, MS, IBM and Oracle combined?
Or worth a lot more than E-Bay (which own Paypal), Visa and Mastercard combined?
Will be*. Yes.
Hmm, is that before or after BTC is declared the official currency of the United Federation of Planets in the Milky Way?
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December 03, 2013, 12:54:30 PM
 #29

The currency part will come, in time, maybe around the 100k mark.
So, in other words, you are saying the bitcoin network is worth than Apple, MS, IBM and Oracle combined?
Or worth a lot more than E-Bay (which own Paypal), Visa and Mastercard combined?
Will be*. Yes.
Hmm, is that before or after BTC is declared the official currency of the United Federation of Planets in the Milky Way?
That's just if it becomes a popular way of storing wealth similar to gold. If in addition it becomes a proper mainstream currency it could go higher. Much higher.

Keep in mind that bitcoin is international. Literally the entire world is the target demographic.

Look inside yourself, and you will see that you are the bubble.
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December 03, 2013, 12:59:04 PM
 #30

Economists fail... drop out, get rich. That's what i did...
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December 03, 2013, 01:02:50 PM
Last edit: December 03, 2013, 01:28:35 PM by deisik
 #31

The department keeps arguing against bitcoin with these points.

1) Bitcoin is deflationary and it will cause it to fail. (facepalm)

2) Bitcoin is doomed to fail because people hoard it instead of spending it. No Economy exist.(facepalm x2)

3) Nobody uses Bitcoin for anything (Not Mainstream=Not real???) (Facepalm x 1,000,000)



My Goal: Raise Awareness about Bitcoin. Starting with the economics department and then expanding to the whole campus then the whole town.


I see that I'm not alone in stating that your economics department is actually right, but this would be too obvious an answer and surely not what you would like to hear. Probably, it is also too late to mend matters and change anything, but if I were you and had been interested in Bitcoin and all that, I would probably make my thesis on investigating a Ponzy nature of Bitcoin from an economical standpoint (even if you don't believe it to be) or just stick to some particular feature of it that could be interesting for an economist. This would possibly cause much more excitement and agitation in your tutor and the department as whole and also would give you a better understanding of the true nature of Bitcoin

Raising awareness about Bitcoin seems to be a rather strange subject for an economics student...

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December 03, 2013, 01:04:01 PM
 #32

Economists fail... drop out, get rich. That's what i did...

Gamblers some times get rich. That doesn't mean that statistcs fail.
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December 03, 2013, 01:22:56 PM
 #33

If that is what you believe, then argue your way out with economic theories, market observations or historical data. You don't seem to be doing that... However, I don't think you have a strong argument (in economic theories). Besides, professors will wiggle their way out with even more obscure theories.

I really liked that last piece of yours. Your strategy is to know and understand economics (or whatever science for that matter), your tactics would be to learn about the theories these professors like or dislike most (and their kinks overall), and get yourself prepared properly for the thrashing with that knowledge in your hand...


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December 03, 2013, 01:44:20 PM
 #34

Replace those "bitcoin" words with "gold" and turn it back to them

To be honest, all the professors I knew in my economy department are just not able to understand it.

The real problem behind the scene is: When they hear the word "money", they become panic and lost most of their ability to think, they start to seek some powerful forces that back it, without that force, they feel extremely insecure about its value

Unlike Bitcoin gold is used in jewelry and has industrial application as well

Besides that, nothing substantial would actually change much then, save maybe for gold being also used by some hard-wired goldbugs as a store of value (with varying degrees of success) and for speculation purposes indeed. The first two points would remain absolutely valid if we substituted gold for Bitcoin...


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December 03, 2013, 02:53:44 PM
 #35

Replace those "bitcoin" words with "gold" and turn it back to them

To be honest, all the professors I knew in my economy department are just not able to understand it.

The real problem behind the scene is: When they hear the word "money", they become panic and lost most of their ability to think, they start to seek some powerful forces that back it, without that force, they feel extremely insecure about its value

Unlike Bitcoin gold is used in jewelry and has industrial application as well

Besides that, nothing substantial would actually change much then, save maybe for gold being also used by some hard-wired goldbugs as a store of value (with varying degrees of success) and for speculation purposes indeed. The first two points would remain absolutely valid if we substituted gold for Bitcoin...



Also add food and beverage , also with gold you can more easily show off , it's not that easy to carry a 27 inch screen with your bitcoin wallet around.

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December 03, 2013, 04:36:47 PM
 #36

Economists...

I love this quote:

"You can pretty much draw a one to one parallel between economics and astrology: they use the same technique (fooling the gullible), serve the same purpose (ensuring the practitioner makes a living), and have similar predictive power (none)."


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December 03, 2013, 04:47:44 PM
 #37

Economists...

I love this quote:

"You can pretty much draw a one to one parallel between economics and astrology: they use the same technique (fooling the gullible), serve the same purpose (ensuring the practitioner makes a living), and have similar predictive power (none)."


Well , I 'll have to defend economics on this one.
Astrology is making guesses based on stars even though some of the stars in their prediction are already dead. Smiley)
Economist use half dead models.

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December 03, 2013, 05:09:26 PM
 #38

You haven't done enough research,


Stop looking at bitcoin as just a currency or even a payment system, even though that is what we are seeing it being used as today, that is not nearly what can be done with it.

Bitcoin is a P2P, Decentralized, Global, Open Source, Proof of Ownership system.

The value that a transaction on the block-chain via colored coins or other mechanism can literally be anything, from stocks, bonds, smart property, a voting system, wills, deeds, proof of invention, a pdf, an mp3, as well as a system to allow for off-chain micro transactions, etc. etc. etc.

tl;dr; bitcoin is so much more then just money or a global payment system, for all of the above and the services that can be layered on top of the bitcoin protocol is why we are seeing the huge upswing in demand and thus price in the past ~30 days.

See the following videos for a tiny glimpse of what bitcoin can become.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jl-HZWfxUFw

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Contracts

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mD4L7xDNCmA

♫ This situation, which side are you on? Are you getting out? Are you dropping bombs? Have you heard of diplomatic resolve? ♫ How To Run A Cheap Full Bitcoin Node For $19 A Year ♫ If I knew where it was, I would take you there. There’s much more than this. ♫ Track Your Bitcoins Value
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December 03, 2013, 05:56:43 PM
 #39

Quote
My biggest piece of evidence: I have established an online wallet and provided the address to whole economics department and information on how to check it.

Why don't you point the "biggest piece of evidence" to a charity address or well known bitcoin organisation donation address, instead of your own?

There are already about 1000 people with bitcoin holdings of over $1 million. We are the biggest piece of evidence. Month ago the number was barely 150.

Thinly veiled brag... :-)
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December 03, 2013, 07:45:54 PM
 #40

Stop looking at bitcoin as just a currency or even a payment system, even though that is what we are seeing it being used as today, that is not nearly what can be done with it.

Bitcoin is a P2P, Decentralized, Global, Open Source, Proof of Ownership system.
P2P? Decentralized?
Well, unless it really gets used. Then you are gonna need centralized servers for the full block chain and prune the blockchain on normal clients and nodes.

The value that a transaction on the block-chain via colored coins or other mechanism can literally be anything, from stocks, bonds, smart property, a voting system, wills, deeds, proof of invention, a pdf, an mp3, as well as a system to allow for off-chain micro transactions, etc. etc. etc.
Yeah, sure. You could layer on top of it. Question remains if that really makes sense or rather develop a custom solution directly on top of tcp.
And there are dozens of bitcoin clones around. Why choose bitcoin when you can use an identical cheap altcoin instead?
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December 03, 2013, 09:44:54 PM
 #41

In modern economy theory, value comes from demand, as long as there is a demand for bitcoin, it will have value

Those who question the value of bitcoin typically do not have a demand for bitcoin (they have not realized its potential), and those who are purchasing lots of bitcoins have a demand, it is very simple

One of the demand is very clear: Store of value. Fiat money can not fulfill this demand due to endless QE and 0 to negative interest rate policy

Someday if central banks stopped their money printing, fiat money will be as good as bitcoin in this regards, but it seems the QE and the national debt is running out of control right now Cheesy Cheesy

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December 03, 2013, 09:59:53 PM
Last edit: December 03, 2013, 11:47:16 PM by johnyj
 #42

OP, in order to enlighten your professors, just ask them: Who get the ownership of the newly created fiat base money? And what have they done in order to get that ownership?

If they can figure out the answer to these 2 questions, they will understand why bitcoin is much better

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December 03, 2013, 10:08:54 PM
 #43

Stop looking at bitcoin as just a currency or even a payment system, even though that is what we are seeing it being used as today, that is not nearly what can be done with it.

Bitcoin is a P2P, Decentralized, Global, Open Source, Proof of Ownership system.
P2P? Decentralized?
Well, unless it really gets used. Then you are gonna need centralized servers for the full block chain and prune the blockchain on normal clients and nodes.

The value that a transaction on the block-chain via colored coins or other mechanism can literally be anything, from stocks, bonds, smart property, a voting system, wills, deeds, proof of invention, a pdf, an mp3, as well as a system to allow for off-chain micro transactions, etc. etc. etc.
Yeah, sure. You could layer on top of it. Question remains if that really makes sense or rather develop a custom solution directly on top of tcp.
And there are dozens of bitcoin clones around. Why choose bitcoin when you can use an identical cheap altcoin instead?


Nope , the blockchain can be compressed or it can be implemented a new change , erasing older transaction that are no longer needed.
No need to panic.

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December 03, 2013, 10:18:52 PM
 #44

Your "professor" just missed what has already been the most profitable investment in mankind history.
Maybe you should be his teacher.

The cost of mediation increases transaction costs, limiting the
minimum practical transaction size and cutting off the possibility for small casual transactions

Satoshi Nakamoto : https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf
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December 03, 2013, 10:23:29 PM
 #45

I'm going to make this as straight forward as possible.

About Me:

Noel Arteaga
Illinois State University
Managerial Economics/ Business Administration

Graduate Dec 14, 2013


I am currently finishing up my undergraduate degree in Managerial Economics.

I have a week and a half to go (WHOOP).

I have focused my studies this past year on Bitcoin.

My senior project is on Bitcoin.

The whole economics department knows me as a Bitcoin fanatic.







Here is the problem:

The entire economics department refuses to accept that bitcoin has any credibility.

The professor who is overseeing my senior project is constantly discrediting it via corrections on my work in progress.

I have gone to entire economics department to talk about the economics of bitcoin and the outcome is always the same:

 They see bitcoin as a fad with no credibility.





The department keeps arguing against bitcoin with these points.

1) Bitcoin is deflationary and it will cause it to fail. (facepalm)

2) Bitcoin is doomed to fail because people hoard it instead of spending it. No Economy exist.(facepalm x2)

3) Nobody uses Bitcoin for anything (Not Mainstream=Not real???) (Facepalm x 1,000,000)



My Goal: Raise Awareness about Bitcoin. Starting with the economics department and then expanding to the whole campus then the whole town.


I will presenting my senior project next week with the hopes of raising awareness.

I have also been putting up flyers with websites that inform people about bitcoin. The feedback from the student body has been overwhelming! I get roughly 20 emails a week from people that see the flyers and wish to learn more! Currently working on a twitter feed and facebook page.

My biggest piece of evidence: I have established an online wallet and provided the address to whole economics department and information on how to check it.

I hope to raise awareness by getting people to send donations with messages supporting Bitcoin, messages that help dis-spell the BS people that "know economics" think about Bitcoin.

 It not about the amount of donation its about the messages that can be attached to the transaction!

I want to shove it in their face (in a passive way) that not only is Bitcoin alive but growing and growing fast. I want to show the world the power of bitcoin!



Bitcoin/Message Address: 1Sk9iEy1UN1q5TkzmX71ayxy2kQEmkb84  

Please Keep the messages clean, I want bitcoin to seem as credible as possible.






This is my attempt to prove who I am. If you have any questions please PM me!

http://[img=http://s10.postimg.org/dvaxnjgid/Classes.jpg]
http://[img=http://s9.postimg.org/6sdjgbjyz/image.jpg]






easy, just don't bother explaining it further to them, let them lose out.


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December 03, 2013, 10:47:58 PM
 #46

Your "professor" just missed what has already been the most profitable investment in mankind history.
Maybe you should be his teacher.
Geez guys, i just rolled 2 "6"s with my dice, math cant be true.
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December 03, 2013, 11:00:20 PM
 #47

P2P? Decentralized?
Well, unless it really gets used. Then you are gonna need centralized servers for the full block chain and prune the blockchain on normal clients and nodes.
Nope , the blockchain can be compressed or it can be implemented a new change , erasing older transaction that are no longer needed.
No need to panic.
Ah right, luckily the normal person using this stuff aint gonna need the whole block chain, luckily.
Btw, du you know what the word "prune" means?
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December 03, 2013, 11:41:00 PM
 #48

Ah right, luckily the normal person using this stuff aint gonna need the whole block chain, luckily.
Btw, du you know what the word "prune" means?

I bet you do you sweet wrinkly little fella, you.
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December 03, 2013, 11:49:37 PM
 #49

P2P? Decentralized?
Well, unless it really gets used. Then you are gonna need centralized servers for the full block chain and prune the blockchain on normal clients and nodes.
Nope , the blockchain can be compressed or it can be implemented a new change , erasing older transaction that are no longer needed.
No need to panic.
Ah right, luckily the normal person using this stuff aint gonna need the whole block chain, luckily.
Btw, du you know what the word "prune" means?


What part of the " pruning " you don't get?
That's the whole point of reducing the blockchain , so normal users can still run a node.
There won't be a need for datacenters.

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December 04, 2013, 12:45:12 AM
 #50



And there are dozens of bitcoin clones around. Why choose bitcoin when you can use an identical cheap altcoin instead?

Because of bitcoin far superior hash difficulty making it the most secure alternative.
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December 04, 2013, 05:39:12 AM
 #51

Because of bitcoin far superior hash difficulty making it the most secure alternative.

I heard that a lion's share of hashing power in Bitcoin network is concentrated in 3-4 major pools, which is not a good thing, as it makes mining more centralized and monopolized than it should be. In Litecoin, for example, you have a more distributed mining network. So, what's more secure can be debated.
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December 04, 2013, 08:13:58 AM
 #52

Because of bitcoin far superior hash difficulty making it the most secure alternative.

I heard that a lion's share of hashing power in Bitcoin network is concentrated in 3-4 major pools, which is not a good thing, as it makes mining more centralized and monopolized than it should be. In Litecoin, for example, you have a more distributed mining network. So, what's more secure can be debated.
That's because litecoin is tiny. Same thing will eventually happen there if it ever becomes big enough. In the meanwhile, merchants around the world accept bitcoin and just bitcoin. That makes all the others pure speculation. If bitcoin falls so will the rest. Which means if you want altcoins to succeed, support bitcoin.

Look inside yourself, and you will see that you are the bubble.
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December 04, 2013, 08:20:42 AM
 #53

That's because litecoin is tiny. Same thing will eventually happen there if it ever becomes big enough. In the meanwhile, merchants around the world accept bitcoin and just bitcoin. That makes all the others pure speculation. If bitcoin falls so will the rest. Which means if you want altcoins to succeed, support bitcoin.

Depends on what reason bitcoin falls.

If it falls due to hacking of the sha-256 algorithm, then alt-coins relying on a different algo, especially those that rely on multiple algos, like Quarkcoin will likely survive and even prosper.

If bitcoin falls for some other reason not specific to bitcoin's features (internet is shut down for example), then other alt-coins will naturally fall with it.

Oh, I support bitcoin, don't worry about it, I am just trying to stay objective and rational here and to see proper value in other coins.
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December 04, 2013, 09:28:10 AM
 #54

Because of bitcoin far superior hash difficulty making it the most secure alternative.

I heard that a lion's share of hashing power in Bitcoin network is concentrated in 3-4 major pools, which is not a good thing, as it makes mining more centralized and monopolized than it should be.
It's not a good thing but it's not as bad as a 51% attack.

Edited: Network effect. Things that are more valuable as more people use. Bitcoin is the most used.
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December 04, 2013, 09:33:31 AM
 #55

It's not a good thing but it's not as bad as a 51% attack.

Yes, exactly what I was driving at.

Theoretically, operators of 3-4 big pools can more easily get together to pull off a 51% attack on bitcoin network, than many small pools and solo miners that exist in litecoin network. Bitcoin mining network is an oligopoly now, whereas litecoin network is still a free market.
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December 04, 2013, 09:43:58 AM
 #56

As Upton Sinclair noted:  "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."
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December 04, 2013, 09:47:04 AM
 #57

If you still want to support your donation address, how about sending a good sum of money to yourself through intermediaries? Smiley
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December 04, 2013, 09:52:07 AM
 #58

If you still want to support your donation address, how about sending a good sum of money to yourself through intermediaries? Smiley

Fake it 'til you make it? Tongue

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December 04, 2013, 11:17:49 AM
 #59

Theoretically, operators of 3-4 big pools can more easily get together to pull off a 51% attack on bitcoin network, than many small pools and solo miners that exist in litecoin network. Bitcoin mining network is an oligopoly now, whereas litecoin network is still a free market.
Mining pool operators can't force people to contribute to pools. If a pool starts to behave badly like this, people will leave for other pools. Or do solo. Still a free market.
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December 04, 2013, 11:45:02 AM
 #60

That's because litecoin is tiny. Same thing will eventually happen there if it ever becomes big enough. In the meanwhile, merchants around the world accept bitcoin and just bitcoin. That makes all the others pure speculation. If bitcoin falls so will the rest. Which means if you want altcoins to succeed, support bitcoin.

Depends on what reason bitcoin falls.

If it falls due to hacking of the sha-256 algorithm, then alt-coins relying on a different algo, especially those that rely on multiple algos, like Quarkcoin will likely survive and even prosper.

If bitcoin falls for some other reason not specific to bitcoin's features (internet is shut down for example), then other alt-coins will naturally fall with it.

Oh, I support bitcoin, don't worry about it, I am just trying to stay objective and rational here and to see proper value in other coins.

What you see is potential value , but that is just a dream. Alt coins price is now driven by the media madness around bitcoin and people who can't get into bitcoin mining and turn to alts hoping to get rich. Alt coins have no use right now , you can't do anything with them , just trade them to BTC.

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December 04, 2013, 12:09:35 PM
 #61

What you see is potential value , but that is just a dream. Alt coins price is now driven by the media madness around bitcoin and people who can't get into bitcoin mining and turn to alts hoping to get rich. Alt coins have no use right now , you can't do anything with them , just trade them to BTC.

Equally true for bitcoin.
Right now where I am I can't do nothing with bitcoin in real life, except trade it online and hope it grows more, just like alt-coins. If there are some places on the internet that I can spend it on, it'd actually be cheaper for me right now to just pay by paypal. Until bitcoin is accepted to buy groceries, its potential value is not realized, it's all just a dream, a dream that cryptos can grow more and be widely adopted and used to buy things in real life. So no difference with alt-coins here.
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December 04, 2013, 12:29:04 PM
 #62

What you see is potential value , but that is just a dream. Alt coins price is now driven by the media madness around bitcoin and people who can't get into bitcoin mining and turn to alts hoping to get rich. Alt coins have no use right now , you can't do anything with them , just trade them to BTC.

Equally true for bitcoin.
Right now where I am I can't do nothing with bitcoin in real life, except trade it online and hope it grows more, just like alt-coins. If there are some places on the internet that I can spend it on, it'd actually be cheaper for me right now to just pay by paypal. Until bitcoin is accepted to buy groceries, its potential value is not realized, it's all just a dream, a dream that cryptos can grow more and be widely adopted and used to buy things in real life. So no difference with alt-coins here.

At my grandpa house I don't have phone signal not internet access.
Does that make cell phones useless?

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December 04, 2013, 12:32:01 PM
 #63

At my grandpa house I don't have phone signal not internet access.
Does that make cell phones useless?

Can you make a phone call from your grandpa's house with a (put any brand name here) cellphone any better than with a (put any other brand name here) cellphone?
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December 04, 2013, 12:40:42 PM
 #64

At my grandpa house I don't have phone signal not internet access.
Does that make cell phones useless?

Can you make a phone call from your grandpa's house with a (put any brand name here) cellphone any better than with a (put any other brand name here) cellphone?

Only if I also drive 5 km uphill.
Also , I guess you got my point.
There are places where bitcoin can be used in shops and restaurants and places where no. Altcoins have no such places.

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December 04, 2013, 12:41:25 PM
 #65

Well, who have not started on or before the 2nd Era, then these people are normally failed to reach the need.

Currently there are lots of plans, executing for years, If you like to stop the bitcoin madness. Then Qe must be stopped to adjust the status.
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December 04, 2013, 12:52:01 PM
 #66

At my grandpa house I don't have phone signal not internet access.
Does that make cell phones useless?

Can you make a phone call from your grandpa's house with a (put any brand name here) cellphone any better than with a (put any other brand name here) cellphone?

Only if I also drive 5 km uphill.
Also , I guess you got my point.
There are places where bitcoin can be used in shops and restaurants and places where no. Altcoins have no such places.

I got your point. But you don't want to get mine.

Right now I'd have to drive a few hours to find a place that accepts bitcoins. It could be a bit easier to spend bitcoins it if you're in a big city, but still you'd have to do some searching for such a restaurant for example.
Same on Internet, Paypal is the king right now, that's a fact, everyone accepts it, bitcoin is accepted by maybe 1% of merchants, maybe even much less. Will Paypal be king in a few years? We shall see.

You see, the bitcoin is paving the way for alt-coins. What took bitcoin 4-5 years to achieve, alt-coins will achieve in 1 year, just because there is already mindset about cryptos and a lot of code written initially for bitcoin, which can be adapted for alt-coins with slight modifications, and it will be adapted. There are many talented, motivated and financially backed programmers who can quickly set up all required framework for other alt-coins once bitcoin really goes mainstream. Whereas for bitcoin the time to receive larger adoption was/is counted in years, for alt-coins it will be months, alt-coins piggy-backing on bitcoin's success. Is that good or bad? It's just the way it will be, we'll have to accept it.

There is no such thing as unanimity, and when you have two persons, you have more than 1 opinion usually, imagine there are millions of people in the internet industry, they simply can't all agree on 1 and only payment system, it's utopia. Especially since bitcoin network can only service 7 transactions per second for the entire world until they do something to the blockchain.
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December 04, 2013, 01:03:06 PM
 #67

At my grandpa house I don't have phone signal not internet access.
Does that make cell phones useless?

Can you make a phone call from your grandpa's house with a (put any brand name here) cellphone any better than with a (put any other brand name here) cellphone?

Only if I also drive 5 km uphill.
Also , I guess you got my point.
There are places where bitcoin can be used in shops and restaurants and places where no. Altcoins have no such places.

I got your point. But you don't want to get mine.

Right now I'd have to drive a few hours to find a place that accepts bitcoins. It could be a bit easier to spend bitcoins it if you're in a big city, but still you'd have to do some searching for such a restaurant for example.
Same on Internet, Paypal is the king right now, that's a fact, everyone accepts it, bitcoin is accepted by maybe 1% of merchants, maybe even much less. Will Paypal be king in a few years? We shall see.

You see, the bitcoin is paving the way for alt-coins. What took bitcoin 4-5 years to achieve, alt-coins will achieve in 1 year, just because there is already mindset about cryptos and a lot of code written initially for bitcoin, which can be adapted for alt-coins with slight modifications, and it will be adapted. There are many talented, motivated and financially backed programmers who can quickly set up all required framework for other alt-coins once bitcoin really goes mainstream. Whereas for bitcoin the time to receive larger adoption was/is counted in years, for alt-coins it will be months, alt-coins piggy-backing on bitcoin's success. Is that good or bad? It's just the way it will be, we'll have to accept it.

There is no such thing as unanimity, and when you have two persons, you have more than 1 opinion usually, imagine there are millions of people in the internet industry, they simply can't all agree on 1 and only payment system, it's utopia. Especially since bitcoin network can only service 7 transactions per second for the entire world until they do something to the blockchain.

Well you don't get mine either.
Bitcoin is getting more and more merchants abroad. Altcoins? Litecoin? How many merchants do deal in altcoin?
At one time it will be easier even for you (and me) to use bitcoins in our daily life , wait for it.
Bitcoin is progressing in this way. Alt coins? Never heard of an altcoin doing something like that , premine the stuff , heavy spam on this forum , drive the price up and ...hope it will raise up enough to dump all and get a house and a car.
Most altcoins have no dev team , no true supporters , no plan . nothing.
Bitcoin has been tested with crashs,  small fork , doubt any altcoin will survive this.

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December 04, 2013, 02:04:18 PM
 #68

We could debate this till the end of the world, I suggest we take a rest Smiley
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December 04, 2013, 02:06:03 PM
 #69

We could debate this till the end of the world, I suggest we take a rest Smiley

I wish I could go on and  live that long.

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December 04, 2013, 02:06:57 PM
 #70

Three economists went out hunting and came across a large deer. The first economist fired, but missed, by a meter to the left. The second economist fired, but also missed, by a meter to the right. The third economist didn't fire, but shouted in triumph, "We got it! We got it!"

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December 04, 2013, 02:09:13 PM
 #71

Three economists went out hunting and came across a large deer. The first economist fired, but missed, by a meter to the left. The second economist fired, but also missed, by a meter to the right. The third economist didn't fire, but shouted in triumph, "We got it! We got it!"

And then the deer went to a bank and got a new mortgage. Smiley

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December 04, 2013, 02:17:29 PM
Last edit: December 04, 2013, 06:16:17 PM by deisik
 #72

Only if I also drive 5 km uphill.
Also , I guess you got my point.
There are places where bitcoin can be used in shops and restaurants and places where no. Altcoins have no such places.

Actually, in real life it makes no significant difference. There is infinity between 1 and 0 (especially if you try to calculate how many times one is bigger than zero), but if you need a million there's not much difference between them though...

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jballs
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December 04, 2013, 02:17:43 PM
 #73

Three economists went out hunting and came across a large deer. The first economist fired, but missed, by a meter to the left. The second economist fired, but also missed, by a meter to the right. The third economist didn't fire, but shouted in triumph, "We got it! We got it!"

And then the deer went to a bank and got a new mortgage. Smiley

A group of economists was hiking in the Alps. After several hours they became hopelessly lost. One of them studied the map for some time, turning it up and down, sighting distant landmarks, consulting his compass and the sun's location for that time of day. Finally he said, "OK, see that big mountain over there?"

"Yes," answered the others eagerly.

"Well, according to this map, we're standing on top of it."

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December 04, 2013, 02:35:43 PM
 #74

Only if I also drive 5 km uphill.
Also , I guess you got my point.
There are places where bitcoin can be used in shops and restaurants and places where no. Altcoins have no such places.

Actually, in real life it makes no significant difference. There is infinity between 1 and 0 (especially if try to calculate how many times one is bigger than zero), but if you need a million there's not much difference between them...

I think is thread has derailed a bit. We went from madness to some economical arguments , jokes and now this.
Tend to agree to your post , but the fact that was I guess pointed is that there is something you can do other that trade with bitcoins and it can't be with some alt coins.
Which altcoins , there are too many for me right now to understand which is better and which is a failure.
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December 04, 2013, 02:36:38 PM
 #75

Three economists went out hunting and came across a large deer. The first economist fired, but missed, by a meter to the left. The second economist fired, but also missed, by a meter to the right. The third economist didn't fire, but shouted in triumph, "We got it! We got it!"

And then the deer went to a bank and got a new mortgage. Smiley

A group of economists was hiking in the Alps. After several hours they became hopelessly lost. One of them studied the map for some time, turning it up and down, sighting distant landmarks, consulting his compass and the sun's location for that time of day. Finally he said, "OK, see that big mountain over there?"

"Yes," answered the others eagerly.

"Well, according to this map, we're standing on top of it."

No offense , but this one was better Smiley

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December 04, 2013, 03:28:33 PM
 #76

Three economists went out hunting and came across a large deer. The first economist fired, but missed, by a meter to the left. The second economist fired, but also missed, by a meter to the right. The third economist didn't fire, but shouted in triumph, "We got it! We got it!"

Recently i read the reason why economic teachers are among the highest paid ones among the academic society. Because we want them to stay on campus.  Tongue Tongue
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December 04, 2013, 04:25:53 PM
 #77

It is not for no reason that economics is known as the dismal science.
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December 04, 2013, 10:34:46 PM
 #78

I'm going to make this as straight forward as possible.

About Me:

Noel Arteaga
Illinois State University
Managerial Economics/ Business Administration

Graduate Dec 14, 2013

I am currently finishing up my undergraduate degree in Managerial Economics.

I have a week and a half to go (WHOOP).

I have focused my studies this past year on Bitcoin.

My senior project is on Bitcoin.

The whole economics department knows me as a Bitcoin fanatic.

Here is the problem:

The entire economics department refuses to accept that bitcoin has any credibility.

The professor who is overseeing my senior project is constantly discrediting it via corrections on my work in progress.

I have gone to entire economics department to talk about the economics of bitcoin and the outcome is always the same:

 They see bitcoin as a fad with no credibility.


The department keeps arguing against bitcoin with these points.

1) Bitcoin is deflationary and it will cause it to fail. (facepalm)

2) Bitcoin is doomed to fail because people hoard it instead of spending it. No Economy exist.(facepalm x2)

3) Nobody uses Bitcoin for anything (Not Mainstream=Not real???) (Facepalm x 1,000,000)



My Goal: Raise Awareness about Bitcoin. Starting with the economics department and then expanding to the whole campus then the whole town.


I will presenting my senior project next week with the hopes of raising awareness.

I have also been putting up flyers with websites that inform people about bitcoin. The feedback from the student body has been overwhelming! I get roughly 20 emails a week from people that see the flyers and wish to learn more! Currently working on a twitter feed and facebook page.

My biggest piece of evidence: I have established an online wallet and provided the address to whole economics department and information on how to check it.

I hope to raise awareness by getting people to send donations with messages supporting Bitcoin, messages that help dis-spell the BS people that "know economics" think about Bitcoin.

 It not about the amount of donation its about the messages that can be attached to the transaction!

I want to shove it in their face (in a passive way) that not only is Bitcoin alive but growing and growing fast. I want to show the world the power of bitcoin!


Bitcoin/Message Address: 1Sk9iEy1UN1q5TkzmX71ayxy2kQEmkb84 

Please Keep the messages clean, I want bitcoin to seem as credible as possible.

This is my attempt to prove who I am. If you have any questions please PM me!

http://s10.postimg.org/dvaxnjgid/Classes.jpg
http://s9.postimg.org/6sdjgbjyz/image.jpg


Aaaaah stupid, rigid mainstream academic professors.   They truly believe the crap they are teaching like "Efficient market theory" and "Modern Portfolio Theory".  Dumbass professors don't realize that what they are teaching has been put there by the "powers that be" (Wall Street and the Fed) to suppress the masses and indoctrinate students to be "zombies"...follow the status quo.

Good luck getting these professors to wrap their heads around Bitcoin, they can't see past their "ego" of all the antiquated economic crap they have learned.

Hope you can convince at least one professor that Bitcoin is not a fad.





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December 05, 2013, 12:04:06 AM
 #79

Quote
1) Bitcoin is deflationary and it will cause it to fail.
2) Bitcoin is doomed to fail because people hoard it instead of spending it. No Economy exist.
3) Nobody uses Bitcoin for anything (Not Mainstream=Not real???)

1) How exactly being deflationary would cause it to fail?
    Is that according to some economic theory for currency?
    Whatever that theory is - it does not apply.
    Explanation: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Deflationary_spiral

2) Yes, most people hoard, but some spend.
    Those who spend are enough to gave it growth.
    Being able to transfer value electronically, creates market by itself

3) 80k transactions a day is hardly "nothing"
    Not Mainstream=Not real -> It is correct for "standard" currency.
    But Bitcoin is not standard, it is not "default" currency of any state
    Therefore, requirement of being "mainstream" does not apply.

In general, it would seem that your professors are applying the same conditions to Bitcoin as to "government issued" currency.
It is not. And because it is not, most of current economic theories, regarding currencies, do not apply to Bitcoin.
I think the word "currency" triggers a set of prejudice limitations in their heads.
I would rather use "electronic value storage and transfer system" instead of currency.
That would instantly nullify their "growth", "adaptation", "deflation" claims.
Because how do these claims apply to the "electronic value storage and transfer system" (EVSTS) as opposed to "currency"?
Does the EVSTS need to be mainstream to succeed?
Does the EVSTS need to grow to succeed?
Does the EVSTS need all of its members sending money all the time?
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December 05, 2013, 08:19:15 AM
 #80

I would rather use "electronic value storage and transfer system" instead of currency.
That would instantly nullify their "growth", "adaptation", "deflation" claims.
Because how do these claims apply to the "electronic value storage and transfer system" (EVSTS) as opposed to "currency"?
Does the EVSTS need to be mainstream to succeed?
Does the EVSTS need to grow to succeed?
Does the EVSTS need all of its members sending money all the time?

And the most important question that you somehow left out of consideration here is what does this all have to do with economics?

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|ROULETTE
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An amorous cow-herder
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December 05, 2013, 12:43:45 PM
 #81

Because how do these claims apply to the "electronic value storage and transfer system" (EVSTS) as opposed to "currency"?
Does the EVSTS need to be mainstream to succeed?
Does the EVSTS need to grow to succeed?
Does the EVSTS need all of its members sending money all the time?
Thats a very good way of putting it.
And to answer the questions. It has to be sustainable. At current rates the maintance costs are $7.2M/month. Thats 25 BTC/block at block/10 minutes with BTC at ~$1K. In the long term the transaction fees have to pay the maintance cost, since no more BTC are "printed" or "mined" or however you want to call it.
The income from transactions fees is still very low, not enough to maintain the network at current rates by far. The options are either to increase transaction volume by a large amount in the mid term or reduce the amount of miners, thus decreasing overall security.
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December 05, 2013, 01:12:25 PM
 #82

Because how do these claims apply to the "electronic value storage and transfer system" (EVSTS) as opposed to "currency"?
Does the EVSTS need to be mainstream to succeed?
Does the EVSTS need to grow to succeed?
Does the EVSTS need all of its members sending money all the time?
Thats a very good way of putting it.
And to answer the questions. It has to be sustainable. At current rates the maintance costs are $7.2M/month. Thats 25 BTC/block at block/10 minutes with BTC at ~$1K. In the long term the transaction fees have to pay the maintance cost, since no more BTC are "printed" or "mined" or however you want to call it.
The income from transactions fees is still very low, not enough to maintain the network at current rates by far. The options are either to increase transaction volume by a large amount in the mid term or reduce the amount of miners, thus decreasing overall security.

Or to increase efficiency of mining , we already see cost per GH dropping to 5$ form 100 in the past.
And where did you get that 7.2 M/Month?

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December 05, 2013, 03:03:43 PM
 #83

Or to increase efficiency of mining , we already see cost per GH dropping to 5$ form 100 in the past.
And where did you get that 7.2 M/Month?
Energy efficiency isnt the issue here. Its the bitcoins being generated by mining. 25 per block every roughly ten minutes. Or, in numbers 25BTC/block*6 blocks/hour*24hours/day*30days/months. Thus 108K BTC/month.
And yeah, sorry, that $7.2M/month was an old figure, checked an old version of a spreadsheat. Sad The current numbers are far worse.
So basicly, since the network generates those 108K BTC (or, at current rates ~$108M) per month and most mining hardware barely breaks even nowadays even at those extremely high bitcoin prices its pretty fair to assume that this is the real cost is run the network.
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December 05, 2013, 03:05:10 PM
 #84

Frankly your Economics department is correct in each of it's criticisms, you may of course point to a few threads of real trade that other Zealots like yourself engage in as a kind of Cargo-cult activity trying to 'summon' an economy out of a deflationary currency. 

But this dose not a real economy make, most people claiming to spend BTC immediately buy replacement BTCs when ever they spend them (making a net dollar purchase), or are just creaming off some of their wealth increase.  Lastly you have Mining equipment purchases which are clearly just an attempt to get more BTC's and should be seen as a COST of running the system, not it's economy.

If you are not able to understand that BTC is a speculative mania and not a currency then frankly you deserve to be flunked in Economics.

Whether this guy is right or wrong, you are paying to learn from your profs.  Obviously, they didn't have bitcoin when they got their degrees.  Study something else to get the most education for your coin Wink   

 
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niothor
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December 05, 2013, 03:09:36 PM
 #85

Or to increase efficiency of mining , we already see cost per GH dropping to 5$ form 100 in the past.
And where did you get that 7.2 M/Month?
Energy efficiency isnt the issue here. Its the bitcoins being generated by mining. 25 per block every roughly ten minutes. Or, in numbers 25BTC/block*6 blocks/hour*24hours/day*30days/months. Thus 108K BTC/month.
And yeah, sorry, that $7.2M/month was an old figure, checked an old version of a spreadsheat. Sad The current numbers are far worse.
So basicly, since the network generates those 108K BTC (or, at current rates ~$108M) per month and most mining hardware barely breaks even nowadays even at those extremely high bitcoin prices its pretty fair to assume that this is the real cost is run the network.

I was talking about the cost of miners , and not electricity.
Compare the first avalons with the knc miners and with the cointerra version
The price of getting the equal amount of hash the network has is dropping each month.

Also please let me know how much PH will that 108M/month buy. Around 20PH? 3 times more than we have?

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December 05, 2013, 03:36:12 PM
 #86

Bitcoin is fundamentally threatening to neo-Keynesian economists and those who favor left political stances.  Paul Krugman for example leads the NYT in a nearly single voice of dissent with his ridicule of bitcoin.  He, for example is constantly calling BTC 'deflationary' while calling the USD either stable or occasionally 'slightly deflationary' (lol).  I imagine your profs are of a similar mindset.

We DO know bitcoin is most likely in a speculative bubble at the moment.  If it is not it is changing history.

What we do NOT know yet is your professors are wrong in the weight of their bias.  I think they are.  But only time will tell.They are most certainly right about some of their stances on btc.

Fundamentally, you are trying to argue in favor of Austrian economic theory in a school for Keynesian theory. It's the economics equivalent of an evolutionist going to a Catholic school and trying to convince them that creationism is wrong. Don't risk failing your project because you are sticking to your guns. Worse case scenario is that your professors don't think you've learned anything in four years of school and think you shouldn't get your degree.
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December 05, 2013, 05:10:15 PM
 #87

Also please let me know how much PH will that 108M/month buy. Around 20PH? 3 times more than we have?
Are you assuming a constant rate of BTC/TH or BTC/PH?
Thats the beginners mistake, as long as difficulty increases you will have a decline. And 20PH for 108M? Now, lemme se, where do you get 20PH for $108M? Or 20GH for $108, or 0.18GH/$ or 5.55$/GH.
Yeah, thats what you get on pre orders. And checking mining calculators like genesisblock those devices might, or might not, ROI. And given that current devices, and lets face it, 90%+ of current hasing power comes from asics, the devices in use currently are mostly first gen asics. Only the early orders are gonna ROI. Quite a couple of people are gonna have to pay for the privilege of mining.
But thats actually pretty irrelevant, since the mining industy will obviously converge towards the profit generated from mining. If mining equipment generates money out of nothing you buy it. If it generates less than you pay for it, you dont. The only mining equipment that still has a chance of profiting is pre orders, which is basicly the same as gambling. The size of the hardware mining industy is pretty excactly the same as the profit generated from mining. Yes, things are that simple at times.
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December 05, 2013, 05:22:17 PM
 #88

Also please let me know how much PH will that 108M/month buy. Around 20PH? 3 times more than we have?
Are you assuming a constant rate of BTC/TH or BTC/PH?
Thats the beginners mistake, as long as difficulty increases you will have a decline. And 20PH for 108M? Now, lemme se, where do you get 20PH for $108M? Or 20GH for $108, or 0.18GH/$ or 5.55$/GH.
Yeah, thats what you get on pre orders. And checking mining calculators like genesisblock those devices might, or might not, ROI. And given that current devices, and lets face it, 90%+ of current hasing power comes from asics, the devices in use currently are mostly first gen asics. Only the early orders are gonna ROI. Quite a couple of people are gonna have to pay for the privilege of mining.
But thats actually pretty irrelevant, since the mining industy will obviously converge towards the profit generated from mining. If mining equipment generates money out of nothing you buy it. If it generates less than you pay for it, you dont. The only mining equipment that still has a chance of profiting is pre orders, which is basicly the same as gambling. The size of the hardware mining industy is pretty excactly the same as the profit generated from mining. Yes, things are that simple at times.


If mining will be less profitable with a projected difficulty increase and miners stop buying hardware , where will that projected increase come from?

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December 05, 2013, 05:33:42 PM
 #89

If mining will be less profitable with a projected difficulty increase and miners stop buying hardware , where will that projected increase come from?
Dumb people. A lot of people fail a basic math. Why do you think people still buy first gen asics or even block eruptors on ebay?
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December 05, 2013, 05:40:31 PM
 #90

If mining will be less profitable with a projected difficulty increase and miners stop buying hardware , where will that projected increase come from?
Dumb people. A lot of people fail a basic math. Why do you think people still buy first gen asics or even block eruptors on ebay?

1) Difficulty increases only if people are buying more miners.
2a) Difficulty is so high that people are not covering their running cost , people with low efficency miners stop and it's worth again mining for people with low costs.
2b) Difficulty is high that it's not worth buying miners but worth running them. Difficulty won't +/-. Until a new cheap miner emerges and we go to 2a.

This shit has been debated so many times in the forums it's getting annoyingly.
One of them:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=295270.0

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December 05, 2013, 05:48:17 PM
 #91

This shit has been debated so many times in the forums it's getting annoyingly.
One of them:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=295270.0
Thanks for providing a link that proves my point.
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December 05, 2013, 05:54:32 PM
 #92

This shit has been debated so many times in the forums it's getting annoyingly.
One of them:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=295270.0
Thanks for providing a link that proves my point.

Why din't you told me in the first place your blind?

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December 05, 2013, 06:07:41 PM
 #93

Why din't you told me in the first place your blind?
From your link:
Quote
To be able to calculate that, you need two simple assumptions:
- overall miners are rational and will only keep buying hardware until they reach the point of marginal profitability within a given period (investment horizon).
- Likewise, ASIC vendors will keep producing and selling chips as long as  its profitable, ie, as long as miners are wiling to pay a price above their marginal costs.
Ok, so miners will buy hardware as long as it as revenure>cost. Revenue is BTC over lifetime. Simple as that.
And ASIC vendors will build as long as miners pay more than production cost.

Fact 1: No miner you can actually currently buy (direct order) will make more than you pay for it, e.g. BFL.
Fact 2: No miner you can pre-order is guaranteed to be delivered on time, nor what the difficulty will be by then (unless you where to somehow know the total shipments in PH/s), nor how much a BTC will be worth by then.
And you call me blind???
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December 05, 2013, 06:10:14 PM
 #94

Why din't you told me in the first place your blind?
From your link:
Quote
To be able to calculate that, you need two simple assumptions:
- overall miners are rational and will only keep buying hardware until they reach the point of marginal profitability within a given period (investment horizon).
- Likewise, ASIC vendors will keep producing and selling chips as long as  its profitable, ie, as long as miners are wiling to pay a price above their marginal costs.
Ok, so miners will buy hardware as long as it as revenure>cost. Revenue is BTC over lifetime. Simple as that.
And ASIC vendors will build as long as miners pay more than production cost.

Fact 1: No miner you can actually currently buy (direct order) will make more than you pay for it, e.g. BFL.
Fact 2: No miner you can pre-order is guaranteed to be delivered on time, nor what the difficulty will be by then (unless you where to somehow know the total shipments in PH/s), nor how much a BTC will be worth by then.
And you call me blind???


Go to that page , do the math and then say you were wrong:
"The income from transactions fees is still very low, not enough to maintain the network at current rates by far."

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December 05, 2013, 06:18:33 PM
 #95

Go to that page , do the math and then say you were wrong:
"The income from transactions fees is still very low, not enough to maintain the network at current rates by far."
I can do a lot better. Back to you.
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December 05, 2013, 06:27:30 PM
 #96

Go to that page , do the math and then say you were wrong:
"The income from transactions fees is still very low, not enough to maintain the network at current rates by far."
I can do a lot better. Back to you.
Your link 
Network Deficit Per Day - Shows difference between transaction fees and cost of bitcoin mining.

The cost of mining on blockchain is based on gpu numbers.

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December 05, 2013, 06:33:13 PM
 #97

Your link 
Network Deficit Per Day - Shows difference between transaction fees and cost of bitcoin mining.

The cost of mining on blockchain is based on gpu numbers.

No, its the simple difference of payouts per day (calculating BTC in USD) vs income generated via transactions.
If you dont believe me, just compare it to the following, that the real actual income from usefullness. Yes, the transaction fees have never exceeded those 42K USD/day. And thats not even close to the "income" generated for block rewards. Block rewards are going to die with time. Transaction fees are the long term sustainability. And they are not catching up nearly fast enough.
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December 05, 2013, 06:40:45 PM
 #98

Your link 
Network Deficit Per Day - Shows difference between transaction fees and cost of bitcoin mining.

The cost of mining on blockchain is based on gpu numbers.

No, its the simple difference of payouts per day (calculating BTC in USD) vs income generated via transactions.
If you dont believe me, just compare it to the following, that the real actual income from usefullness. Yes, the transaction fees have never exceeded those 42K USD/day. And thats not even close to the "income" generated for block rewards. Block rewards are going to die with time. Transaction fees are the long term sustainability. And they are not catching up nearly fast enough.

So you're telling me that your link
https://blockchain.info/de/charts/network-deficit
, labeled network deficit and explained as
Network Deficit Per Day - Shows difference between transaction fees and cost of bitcoin mining.
 
is "the simple difference of payouts per day (calculating BTC in USD) vs income generated via transactions"

Sir , You are obvious an Idiot.

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December 05, 2013, 06:45:20 PM
 #99

So you're telling me that your link
https://blockchain.info/de/charts/network-deficit
, labeled network deficit and explained as
Network Deficit Per Day - Shows difference between transaction fees and cost of bitcoin mining.
 
is "the simple difference of payouts per day (calculating BTC in USD) vs income generated via transactions"

Sir , You are obvious an Idiot.
Ok, then tell me just one little thing. Why was the network deficit in April a lot bigger? Graphics cards were a lot more expensive in April? No? Oh right, there was a price surge of BTC.
I think there is an obvious idiot here, and i got a hunch it aint me.
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December 05, 2013, 06:46:11 PM
 #100

Is this really necessary? It's up to each individual miner if mining is worth it. Leave it to them.

Look inside yourself, and you will see that you are the bubble.
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December 05, 2013, 06:51:56 PM
 #101

Is this really necessary? It's up to each individual miner if mining is worth it. Leave it to them.
Its currently basicly about long term sustainability, not short term bubbles. The actual value of the bitcoin network is as a secure transaction network. And the real value are the transaction fees. Those have to cover the costs for the mining network long term.
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December 05, 2013, 06:53:41 PM
 #102

Is this really necessary? It's up to each individual miner if mining is worth it. Leave it to them.
Its currently basicly about long term sustainability, not short term bubbles. The actual value of the bitcoin network is as a secure transaction network. And the real value are the transaction fees. Those have to cover the costs for the mining network long term.
And they do. I won't even explain how, you should already know as sure of yourself as you sound.

Look inside yourself, and you will see that you are the bubble.
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December 05, 2013, 06:59:26 PM
 #103

And they do. I won't even explain how, you should already know as sure of yourself as you sound.
Ok, then again. At $25k/day on average that about $750k/month. And the mining manufacturers sell far, far more equipment. Obviously, since the big part of the mining income is still block generation income.
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December 05, 2013, 07:09:28 PM
 #104

So you're telling me that your link
https://blockchain.info/de/charts/network-deficit
, labeled network deficit and explained as
Network Deficit Per Day - Shows difference between transaction fees and cost of bitcoin mining.
 
is "the simple difference of payouts per day (calculating BTC in USD) vs income generated via transactions"

Sir , You are obvious an Idiot.
Ok, then tell me just one little thing. Why was the network deficit in April a lot bigger? Graphics cards were a lot more expensive in April? No? Oh right, there was a price surge of BTC.
I think there is an obvious idiot here, and i got a hunch it aint me.

Wrong hunch.
And to end it once for all.
Taking into account those 42k , they will cover the running cost for enough knc miners to bring the difficulty to 21PH.
Do the math or go back to your cave since i got a felling you like to troll.

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December 05, 2013, 07:24:58 PM
 #105

Ok, then tell me just one little thing. Why was the network deficit in April a lot bigger? Graphics cards were a lot more expensive in April? No? Oh right, there was a price surge of BTC.
I think there is an obvious idiot here, and i got a hunch it aint me.

Wrong hunch.
And to end it once for all.
Taking into account those 42k , they will cover the running cost for enough knc miners to bring the difficulty to 21PH.
Do the math or go back to your cave since i got a felling you like to troll.
Ok, 21PH at KNC (PREORDERS! for Q1/Q2) Neptunes have 4.33GH/s (13k value for 3TH/s). In other words 21PH/s cost 91M. ($13k/3TH/s=$4.33/GH/s and 21,000,000GH/s*4.33$/GH/s=$91M).
$91M/$42k/day=2166day=72months. Now, those $42k were the ATH for transaction income for now, not the average.
I did the math. Back to you.
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December 05, 2013, 08:22:07 PM
 #106

Quote from: An amorous cow-herder
In the long term the transaction fees have to pay the maintance cost, since no more BTC are "printed" or "mined" or however you want to call it.
The income from transactions fees is still very low, not enough to maintain the network at current rates by far.

Idiot not understanding what running costs are.


Ok, then tell me just one little thing. Why was the network deficit in April a lot bigger? Graphics cards were a lot more expensive in April? No? Oh right, there was a price surge of BTC.
I think there is an obvious idiot here, and i got a hunch it aint me.

Idiot not knowing how to read a graphic.
Idiot not knowing what a deficit with - (minus) means.

Time to hit the ignore button.

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December 05, 2013, 08:43:58 PM
 #107

Idiot not understanding what running costs are.
Idiot not knowing how to read a graphic.
Idiot not knowing what a deficit with - (minus) means.
Hello, i am Dr. Sbaitso. Would you like to tell me more about your problems?
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