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Author Topic: What does a Free Market mean to you?  (Read 5497 times)
Murwa
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August 09, 2011, 11:08:18 AM
 #21


because there is a free market, it does not mean people are selling.

Even more importent it doesnt mean they dont.
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August 09, 2011, 11:10:58 AM
 #22



you are free to try to build it, i am free to try to stop you, you are free to try to stop me from stopping you, etc, etc.


And now government is free to own your ass and you are free to stop it and they are free to put you in fail etc,etc , do you consider it free market ? How circular logic is that.
go away troll!

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
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August 09, 2011, 11:13:26 AM
 #23



you are free to try to build it, i am free to try to stop you, you are free to try to stop me from stopping you, etc, etc.


And now government is free to own your ass and you are free to stop it and they are free to put you in fail etc,etc , do you consider it free market ? How circular logic is that.
go away troll!

No really i want to understand. What is the difference of freedoms between.

You stopping me from building nuclear plant and government from enforcing taxes on you.
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August 09, 2011, 11:30:21 AM
 #24

You stopping me from building nuclear plant and government from enforcing taxes on you.
im not stopping you, go build.
just give me one good reason i should sell you my plutonium.
wanna pay $1million per gram? not selling, sorry.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
Murwa
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August 09, 2011, 11:43:47 AM
 #25

You stopping me from building nuclear plant and government from enforcing taxes on you.
im not stopping you, go build.
just give me one good reason i should sell you my plutonium.
wanna pay $1million per gram? not selling, sorry.

I am lucky then there are no monopolies on free market. Huh.



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August 09, 2011, 11:50:15 AM
 #26

You stopping me from building nuclear plant and government from enforcing taxes on you.
im not stopping you, go build.
just give me one good reason i should sell you my plutonium.
wanna pay $1million per gram? not selling, sorry.

I am lucky then there are no monopolies on free market. Huh.




if all plutonium holder would form a monopolies on plutonium, then there would be one.
and honestly if they are smart enough to purify plutonium, they will also be smart enough to not sell to you.
it is not in there interest to destroy the earth, they would self die of it. 

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
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August 09, 2011, 11:59:50 AM
 #27

Finally i can build my own nuclear plant full of plutonium rods and then blow it up.

Game over mankind.

Yeah man, that happened once already, in Chernobyl!!!
Oh wait, it was in centrally planned economy, exact opposite of the free market. Whoops.

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August 09, 2011, 12:26:57 PM
 #28

Free Market = Those who have the most capital decide

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August 09, 2011, 12:44:24 PM
 #29

Free Market = Those who have the most capital decide
no. those who can offer most services and goods decides
and even then only if you want to buy from them.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
Murwa
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August 09, 2011, 12:49:56 PM
 #30

if all plutonium holder would form a monopolies on plutonium, then there would be one.

I though free markets prevents forming of monopolies.

If not, then it fails.

and honestly if they are smart enough to purify plutonium, they will also be smart enough to not sell to you.
But i want to produce electricity and i pay well.

You forgot that blowing up the plant is the secret part of plan or can happen as just an accident.

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August 09, 2011, 12:57:14 PM
 #31

I though free markets prevents forming of monopolies.

If not, then it fails.
no it does not. why would it fail?
monopolies like microsoft or apple, would fail if they are not allowed to keep their patents.
which they will not be allowed to on a free market.

and honestly if they are smart enough to purify plutonium, they will also be smart enough to not sell to you.
But i want to produce electricity and i pay well.

You forgot that blowing up the plant is the secret part of plan or can happen as just an accident.
its still not in my interest to sell you the plutonium. i could just make the plant myself, and sell the electricity.

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts." -Bertrand Russell
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August 09, 2011, 01:07:51 PM
 #32

Free Market = Those who have the most capital decide
no. those who can offer most services and goods decides
and even then only if you want to buy from them.

These are all equal to: Those who have the most resource decide. What's the civilization part to differentiate it from any animal world?

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August 09, 2011, 01:11:02 PM
 #33

monopolies like microsoft or apple, would fail if they are not allowed to keep their patents.
which they will not be allowed to on a free market.
First, monopolies like Microsoft and Apple rely very little on patents. They don't even rely on copyright, because it doesn't provide them sufficient rights, in their opinion. They rely on contracts. Second, they'll mostly likely fail no matter what. Unless they can keep innovating and providing the products their customers most want, they'll be eclipsed by a more agile competitor.

The most effective way to maintain a monopoly in a free market is to be the most efficient company, providing the products your customers most want at prices they are happy to pay. Some market segments are 'natural monopolies' in the sense that they have unusual factors that make monopolies more likely in those segments. A good example is operating systems -- there is a benefit to running the same operating system many other people are running even if it's slightly inferior for your particular application. In these areas, a monopoly can be a little bit worse than their closest competitor and still maintain near-monopoly market share.

But if we all benefit from running the same operating system, even if it's not the very best one, why shouldn't we? Until a competitor is sufficiently superior that it's worth the cost of switching, of course.

There are market failures that can occur in a free market where you can have near-monopolies even when it's not particularly efficient. But they are so rare as to be almost non-existent compared to regulatory failures. (And, of course, advocates of free markets believe that it is entirely appropriate to use force to break up monopolies maintained by force or fraud, just as it is appropriate to do so for non-monopolies maintained by those means.)

These are all equal to: Those who have the most resource decide. What's the civilization part to differentiate it from any animal world?
It's hard to take this kind of comment seriously, but just in case, the answer to your question is: The prohibition on the use of force except in defense and the requirement that people honor their agreements.

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August 09, 2011, 01:38:52 PM
 #34

monopolies like microsoft or apple, would fail if they are not allowed to keep their patents.
which they will not be allowed to on a free market.
First, monopolies like Microsoft and Apple rely very little on patents. They don't even rely on copyright, because it doesn't provide them sufficient rights, in their opinion. They rely on contracts. Second, they'll mostly likely fail no matter what. Unless they can keep innovating and providing the products their customers most want, they'll be eclipsed by a more agile competitor.

The most effective way to maintain a monopoly in a free market is to be the most efficient company, providing the products your customers most want at prices they are happy to pay. Some market segments are 'natural monopolies' in the sense that they have unusual factors that make monopolies more likely in those segments. A good example is operating systems -- there is a benefit to running the same operating system many other people are running even if it's slightly inferior for your particular application. In these areas, a monopoly can be a little bit worse than their closest competitor and still maintain near-monopoly market share.

But if we all benefit from running the same operating system, even if it's not the very best one, why shouldn't we? Until a competitor is sufficiently superior that it's worth the cost of switching, of course.

There are market failures that can occur in a free market where you can have near-monopolies even when it's not particularly efficient. But they are so rare as to be almost non-existent compared to regulatory failures. (And, of course, advocates of free markets believe that it is entirely appropriate to use force to break up monopolies maintained by force or fraud, just as it is appropriate to do so for non-monopolies maintained by those means.)

These are all equal to: Those who have the most resource decide. What's the civilization part to differentiate it from any animal world?
It's hard to take this kind of comment seriously, but just in case, the answer to your question is: The prohibition on the use of force except in defense and the requirement that people honor their agreements.


Right, let's do away with public education. Create the free market for our children's sake. You can be responsible for the roads outside your house to. And if there's a war people can hire gangs to protect their property, competition will prevent them from becoming governments. If only it can be realized, it will be paradise. Wait... It already exists here on earth... Somalia. I'll persuade them to accept bitcoin.

Buys plane ticket Cheesy

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August 09, 2011, 02:00:18 PM
 #35

These are all equal to: Those who have the most resource decide. What's the civilization part to differentiate it from any animal world?
It's hard to take this kind of comment seriously, but just in case, the answer to your question is: The prohibition on the use of force except in defense and the requirement that people honor their agreements.
As stated elsewhere.  As the wealthy landowner it seems that I can get very similar results to things like oppression, apartheid, slavery - without initial force (in your specialized usage of the term).  i.e. I can control wages and the kind of jobs (via contracts with businesses), I can control movement (via road contracts) and I can control where people live (via contracts for the land they lease) which bathrooms they use etc...  Should these oppressed folk rebel, escape whatever...they will be hunted down and returned by your government (terms of the contract).

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August 09, 2011, 02:40:33 PM
 #36

Right, let's do away with public education.
Then what will homogenize the immigrants and keep children out of the labor force?

Quote
Create the free market for our children's sake. You can be responsible for the roads outside your house to. And if there's a war people can hire gangs to protect their property, competition will prevent them from becoming governments. If only it can be realized, it will be paradise. Wait... It already exists here on earth... Somalia. I'll persuade them to accept bitcoin.

Buys plane ticket Cheesy
I think you missed the part about a free market requiring an effective police and court system that can enforce agreements and penalize the use of force or fraud. I don't think Somalia has that. Also, just having a free market doesn't ensure success or prosperity. You need gas in your car for it to run, but you need other things too.

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August 09, 2011, 02:46:37 PM
 #37

Well sorry then. Why don't you go create them?

More seriously, do you really believe a country with no public roads or education or parks or museums or laws against pollution would be a nice country? Might there not be some reason that countries with effective goverments refuse to tread the path you advocate?

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August 09, 2011, 03:38:11 PM
 #38

I think you missed the part about a free market requiring an effective police and court system that can enforce agreements and penalize the use of force or fraud. I don't think Somalia has that. Also, just having a free market doesn't ensure success or prosperity. You need gas in your car for it to run, but you need other things too.

Huh? This is the part that makes no sense, because if your market does not permit free trade of blow for blow, tooth for tooth, eye for eye, a hundred thousand on the beaches for one in tribute and so on and so on and so on then why should it not also not permit paper for paper, apple for orange, food for gold, or any other specific exchange that some pontif pontificates against?

A market in which people cannot trade one good for another is a market in which people cannot trade one good for another, regardless of which good it is they cannot trade for which good.

Basically what you are saying is a market is not free unless it is not free.

Which is good and true but is not a free market, it is an extremely controlled and manipulated market, in which the species that is the most adept and devious scammer carefully undermines the rights, even to life limb and liberty, of all other species, eating any species it chooses while making up elaborate contrived connivances for why this that or the other species deserves less rights than it does and so on and so on and so on.

And that is good, if you are one of that species. For example if there is a species that has enough clothing to survive the cold, or enough food to survive until the humans are cooked and ready to eat, it will be good to be one of those with warm clothing and a larder full of ripe humans and an oven to bake them in.

But if you do not have enough food, clothing, and shelter, then no, the market is not free, it is rigged against those who have not enough food clothing or shelter for themselves and their offspring, let along any excess they could trade at the market.

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August 09, 2011, 04:10:27 PM
 #39

More seriously, do you really believe a country with no public roads or education or parks or museums or laws against pollution would be a nice country?
With no public roads or public parks, what would you need laws against polluting? I don't care if you pollute your own stuff, and we all support laws against polluting other people's stuff. Pollution laws are part of the problem, as they set permissible levels of damage you may due to other people's property with impunity. True, they do draw the line somewhere short of killing everyone on the planet.

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August 09, 2011, 04:24:20 PM
 #40

More seriously, do you really believe a country with no public roads or education or parks or museums or laws against pollution would be a nice country?
With no public roads or public parks, what would you need laws against polluting?
...because there are other things to pollute.  Air for one.  Is air property?

Quote from: JoelKatz
I don't care if you pollute your own stuff, and we all support laws against polluting other people's stuff. Pollution laws are part of the problem, as they set permissible levels of damage you may due to other people's property with impunity.

How would your property laws differ?  Let me guess.  If I don't want pollution on my property it can't be there.  Talk about naively begging the question. Sheesh.

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