Libertarians and gun rights activits here is how the rest of the world sees you

[ElectricMucus]

Btw according to this logic the goverment has justified ownership over you.
It can protect you from any other entity trying to take possession of you, hahaha

This is true; they do own you and I, because we give them the means to own us.  Once we agree that it's better for each of us to own ourselves, this comes to an end.

It seems you Libertarians have some problems with ethics if that is your concept of justice.

My concept of justice doesn't involve one group having special rights over another; however, my concept of justice isn't popular.  Your concept of justice, however, is, and the states of the world do have sovereignty over the people, which is understood to be morally consistent, as I pointed out.  Once we agree that this isn't justice, we can talk about what is.

If it would only take one sentence my concept of justice is that no individual has power over another. Your sense of justice is a subset of mine.

[Mike Christ]

If it would only take one sentence my concept of justice is that no individual has power over another. Your sense of justice is a subset of mine.

Plot-twist: he was an anarchist all along!

[ElectricMucus]

If it would only take one sentence my concept of justice is that no individual has power over another. Your sense of justice is a subset of mine.

Plot-twist: he was an anarchist all along!

A post structuralist one. As such I don't care about shutting down the governments.. And what I am saying Libertarians aren't Anarchists even if they say so.

[Mike Christ]

Well, this is awkward   I'm sorry for my previous words EM, I've always seen libertarian as a blanket term including anarchism as its end destination (as opposed to authoritarianism always leading to fascism), so I always figure anti-libertarian individuals are in support of the state and violence et al.  Then again, many libertarians are still in favor of the state...

[ElectricMucus]

There are libertarians and Libertarians. The one with the capital L are the ones I am concerned about. They represent the majority of this forum and are the people who preach "free market capitalism" which is just radical Neo-Liberalism.
I think the initial discrepancy still stands: Libertarian concept of ownership is not justified. (not according to justice). Economic Inequality can only be maintained using unjustified authority (again justice, not justification!), of course within limits. Libertarians (capital L!) do not strive after a classless society, but Anarchists do.

But quite frankly I don't see any use for either term, with l or L.

[Mike Christ]

I think the initial discrepancy still stands: Libertarian concept of ownership is not justified. (not according to justice). Economic Inequality can only be maintained using unjustified authority (again justice, not justification!), of course within limits. Libertarians (capital L!) do not strive after a classless society, but Anarchists do.

But quite frankly I don't see any use for either term, with l or L.

I think it's an important distinction; I believe, if a person wants to participate in a hierarchy (and I've met these people who like classes, i.e. the Libertarians), then they should have the freedom to do so.  OTOH, people who do not want to participate in hierarchies should also have this right; the world's a big place and I think there's room enough for both of these kinds of people to live, so long as they do so voluntarily.  Of course, they would clash if they decided to try to live with one another, but this kind of stuff, the diff between hierarchies and anarchy, seems to be based entirely on a person's personality.

I believe this all falls under the philosophy of libertarianism; I don't think we'll ever be able to convince everyone that anarchy is the answer (I haven't had much luck anyhow), but I do believe we can convince people not to impose their beliefs onto others.

[stompix]

There are libertarians and Libertarians. The one with the capital L are the ones I am concerned about. They represent the majority of this forum and are the people who preach "free market capitalism" which is just radical Neo-Liberalism.
I think the initial discrepancy still stands: Libertarian concept of ownership is not justified. (not according to justice). Economic Inequality can only be maintained using unjustified authority (again justice, not justification!), of course within limits. Libertarians (capital L!) do not strive after a classless society, but Anarchists do.

But quite frankly I don't see any use for either term, with l or L.

The majority on this forum who preach that free market and consider themselves libertarians , with either l , or L , are supporting this idea because they hate the actual system , not because they are supporters of libertarianism. I see it like a trend , let's love this because we hate that.
And a few so called libertarian projects that have popped on this forum make me believe some of them don't have all their brain cells connected.