[7.3 btc bounty] Implement demurrage in an alternative chain with merged mining

[jtimon]

So is Freicoin dead now?

No, it is still only a concept.
There's another campaign to try to implement it (and more things, like a web and a video).
nodemaster if you want your 2 btc back just PM. I will maintain the rest of the bounty for the minimal things I ask for here, just in case.
If they code it they will take this too. If they don't, I will eventually do it myself when I have the time. Not for the bounty (well, nodemaster's 2 BTC), but because I really have faith in the currency.

[mokahless]

So is Freicoin dead now?

No, it is still only a concept.
There's another campaign to try to implement it (and more things, like a web and a video).
nodemaster if you want your 2 btc back just PM. I will maintain the rest of the bounty for the minimal things I ask for here, just in case.
If they code it they will take this too. If they don't, I will eventually do it myself when I have the time. Not for the bounty (well, nodemaster's 2 BTC), but because I really have faith in the currency.

2BTC? What are you talking about? I just heard about freicoin recently and it interested me. With all the other coins that have been created since bitcoin, I thought maybe the forums had been abandoned and work had gone ahead. So I figured I'd ask.

[jtimon]

2BTC? What are you talking about?

About the 2 btc nodemaster gave.

I just heard about freicoin recently and it interested me. With all the other coins that have been created since bitcoin, I thought maybe the forums had been abandoned and work had gone ahead. So I figured I'd ask.

No, freicoin forums are still open. And this bounty two. But the other campaign have been started without asking me.
Probably they're well intended but I cannot avoid to think that they may take the money and run away, leaving freicoin with a bad name.
Maybe I worry too much...

[markm]

Until you know which block a transaction gets into, you cannot know how much to subtract from it, and even if you do think you know, a re-org could happen later, changing which block it goes into.

Maybe it would be simpler to create a currency that you keep lowering the buy-back price of, that is, keep lowering the number of bitcoins you are willing to buy it back for, so that it effectively keeps going down in value over time.

-MarkM-

[jtimon]

Until you know which block a transaction gets into, you cannot know how much to subtract from it, and even if you do think you know, a re-org could happen later, changing which block it goes into.

That only means that if you don't include any transaction fee, you risk your transaction to become invalid before getting included in a block. I suggested another possibility that doesn't imply transaction fees here.

Maybe it would be simpler to create a currency that you keep lowing the buy-back price of, that is, keep lowering the number of bitcoins you are willing to buy it back for, so that it effectively keeps going down in value over time.

We don't want the unit to decrease in value over time. Why would we want that? Besides, I have no experience at manipulating markets or pegging currencies.
We only want to push interest rates down by discouraging the hoarding of money.

[maaku]

Until you know which block a transaction gets into, you cannot know how much to subtract from it, and even if you do think you know, a re-org could happen later, changing which block it goes into.

That only means that if you don't include any transaction fee, you risk your transaction to become invalid before getting included in a block. I suggested another possibility that doesn't imply transaction fees here.

You'd still need transaction fees, wouldn't you? Otherwise if it didn't make it in the next block the inputs will have decayed to be less than the outputs.

[jtimon]

That only means that if you don't include any transaction fee, you risk your transaction to become invalid before getting included in a block. I suggested another possibility that doesn't imply transaction fees here.

You'd still need transaction fees, wouldn't you? Otherwise if it didn't make it in the next block the inputs will have decayed to be less than the outputs.

Yes, the point is offering the possibility of some refund from the "buffer for demurrage" instead of givving it always to miners.

[markm]

If ALL the money is decreasing ALL the time, then ALL you should need is for ALL displays of actual AMOUNTS of the money to include a time-factor, so that the SAME value in the blockchain will display as a DIFFERENT amount every nanosecond or millisencond or second or minute or hour or day or whatever.

Thus the demurrage would exist purely cosmetically in the clients, needing no representation in the blockchain whatsoever.

Done this way, the number of new coins minted per block would ALSO be perceived as being less over time UNLESS the actual number minted in the actual blockchain anticipates this and compensates for it so that on average if the blocks take the average amount of time they are supposed to then the average number of DISPLAY-COINS (as distinct from the actual number the blockchain records) comes out to whatever number it is that you are aiming for it to come out as.

Basically "the unwashed masses" need not ever concern themselves with the mysterious fact that the numbers in the blockchain do not change yet the number of DISPLAY-COINS, which is the actual number used in real life, being the actual number taking into account that moment in time's demurrage of the entire all coins ever to be minted including those not minted yet, changes constantly.

Basically even block explorers would display the display-amount based on the moment the block is explored, only highly technical machine-code-types needing to know the obscure fact that the blockchain uses constants to express amounts that in reality are changing moment by moment.

-MarkM-

[jtimon]

If ALL the money is decreasing ALL the time, then ALL you should need is for ALL displays of actual AMOUNTS of the money to include a time-factor, so that the SAME value in the blockchain will display as a DIFFERENT amount every nanosecond or millisencond or second or minute or hour or day or whatever.

Thus the demurrage would exist purely cosmetically in the clients, needing no representation in the blockchain whatsoever.

Exactly.

Done this way, the number of new coins minted per block would ALSO be perceived as being less over time UNLESS the actual number minted in the actual blockchain anticipates this and compensates for it so that on average if the blocks take the average amount of time they are supposed to then the average number of DISPLAY-COINS (as distinct from the actual number the blockchain records) comes out to whatever number it is that you are aiming for it to come out as.

Not sure I understand this part.

Basically "the unwashed masses" need not ever concern themselves with the mysterious fact that the numbers in the blockchain do not change yet the number of DISPLAY-COINS, which is the actual number used in real life, being the actual number taking into account that moment in time's demurrage of the entire all coins ever to be minted including those not minted yet, changes constantly.

Yes, but again, not sure what you mean in the bold part.

Basically even block explorers would display the display-amount based on the moment the block is explored, only highly technical machine-code-types needing to know the obscure fact that the blockchain uses constants to express amounts that in reality are changing moment by moment.

Yes.

[jtimon]

I should have probably closed this thread long ago saying what I'm saying now, but better late than never...

Although merged mining is not ready yet (the original bounty asked for that, but much more has been done, like a minning pool and more freicoin specific changes), this bounty was merged with the later campaign days before the official launch..

Since this bounty was basically me and nodemaster, I didn't thought it would be a problem, but let me know if you're not satisfied.

Some links:

main page: http://freico.in/
forum: http://www.freicoin.org/
code: https://github.com/freicoin/freicoin
more on github: https://github.com/freicoin