How long until BTC gambling sites are shut down?

[hilariousandco]

They don't need to move to a tor/.onion-only site, just move their hosting/servers to a country that is fine with gambling.

[DeathAndTaxes]

They don't need to move to a tor/.onion-only site, just move their hosting/servers to a country that is fine with gambling.

Yeah ask Full Tilt Poker how well that strategy worked.

[Probably]

Some may but excluding US players requires identifying your customers.  Think that is going to be popular with bitcoin players.   Also being in a gambling friendly country is not a magic bullet if you let US players play, just ask Full Tilt Poker (google poker black friday).

Part of the problem with full tilt was that they were actively trying to duck regulation and were not paying any taxes directly.

when you would pay with visa to deposit to full tilt they'd use one of a few dozen shell corporations to accept the payment. I know this first hand because I disputed charges that were distributed across 5 companies that added up to a full tilt deposit I did without realizing it:

things like

123playstationstore
happy happy pet food

etc.


The last I followed after being forced out of my poker grind habit / career, new jersey and nevada have legalized online gambling for residents of those states but it requires proof of address, social security, etc.

there are other allegedly legal sites, but I highly doubt they are. As you said, giving us gov a reason to hound you out as a terrorist to our economy isn't a good business model.

[DeathAndTaxes]

Well that is my point.

PartyPoker for example blocked US player = no legal action.
FullTiltPoker did not block US players = legal action.

Just being in another country doesn't make you immune to US legal action unless you ALSO block US players you can't really do that unless you know your customers (name, address, residence information, etc).  Bitcoin doesn't really change that dynamic.  So if when the US decides to go after companies there are two routes:
a) block US players but that means collecting KYC type information (probably required for any legit company anyways).
b) go underground operating using TOR.

My point is that the idea of "just move servers" and keeping doing business as-is is hilariously naive.

[Probably]

yes i was in agreement with you just adding color commentary heh...



Best example of that was the original satoshidice model that relied on the blockchain and so was basically untraceable yet still a fully functioning site. They found it in their best interests to block US players from the website but it was impossible to block someone in the US from gambling. Not sure where that paints them in the eyes of the us gov, but it seems like an easy "very big no no" to me, however unprovable?

If it is impossible to block US players using that method, and it is not provable that a player is playing from the US, would the us gov come down on the site? I don't think any sane owner would want to find out unless they assess the cost of doing business to be worth it (the amount full tilt settled for with no admission of guilt was laughably low).

[DeathAndTaxes]

If it is impossible to block US players using that method, and it is not provable that a player is playing from the US, would the us gov come down on the site? I don't think any sane owner would want to find out unless they assess the cost of doing business to be worth it (the amount full tilt settled for with no admission of guilt was laughably low).

Of course they would.  The action against Full Tilt Poker began with an undercover agent in New York engaging in illegal gambling.  He logged into Full Tilt, deposited funds, and played poker in violation of US law.  The "sting" was recorded and documented and used as evidence.  The fact that the site didn't prevent it was material to the case against FTP.

If/when the US government wanted to do the same thing to a Bitcoin operator it would begin exactly the same way with a recorded gambling session by an undercover agent.

BTW I think the "morality laws" in the US are asinine but I also live in the real world and hate when people pass on claims like "just move the servers" and pretend that prior history doesn't exist.

[coindice]

It's impossible to block U.S. players who want to gamble using Bitcoin. U.S. regulation on gambling is at a bank level. The popularity of Bitcoin gambling definitely stems a lot from the fact that U.S. gamblers cannot use their U.S. banks and debit cards to online gamble. There is also somewhat of a gray area in general as banks and traditional financial networks are not involved in Bitcoin gambling sites, just as taxation is still undefined for many.

[DeathAndTaxes]

It's impossible to block U.S. players who want to gamble using Bitcoin. U.S. regulation on gambling is at a bank level. The popularity of Bitcoin gambling definitely stems a lot from the fact that U.S. gamblers cannot use their U.S. banks and debit cards to online gamble. There is also somewhat of a gray area in general as banks and traditional financial networks are not involved in Bitcoin gambling sites, just as taxation is still undefined for many.

I don't want to do it =/= impossible.

If you verified your customers are non-US then you would be compliant with US laws.  If you don't claiming it is "impossible" won't be a defense.  Not wanting to verify your customers to comply with US laws doesn't make it impossible.

[coindice]

It's impossible to block U.S. players who want to gamble using Bitcoin. U.S. regulation on gambling is at a bank level. The popularity of Bitcoin gambling definitely stems a lot from the fact that U.S. gamblers cannot use their U.S. banks and debit cards to online gamble. There is also somewhat of a gray area in general as banks and traditional financial networks are not involved in Bitcoin gambling sites, just as taxation is still undefined for many.

I don't want to do it =/= impossible.

If you verified your customers are non-US then you would be compliant with US laws.  If you don't claiming it is "impossible" won't be a defense.  Not wanting to verify your customers to comply with US laws doesn't make it impossible.

Something of interest, some U.S. based data centers when I approached them for information accept Bitcoin Gambling sites, but not traditional gambling sites. Although I wouldn't recommend anyone to host in a U.S. datacenter none the less even if there is an overwhelming amount of options when it comes to U.S. based hosting.

It is all still a gray area like the majority of Bitcoin. To start a regulated gambling site handling fiat monies and payments, requires very expensive licensing in the many jurisdictions around the world that offer gambling licenses. Right now that does not exist with Bitcoin.

[babeq]

If cryptocurrency gambling won't be legal then it can be compared to drugs, it's not legal but if you want you can get them.

[coindice]

Cryptocurrency gambling won't be legal than it can be compared to drugs, it's not legal but if you want you can get them.

Drugs of most kinds are illegal in every jurisdiction no matter the form of payment or transfer. I don't think it can be compared to Bitcoin gambling.

[oxxymoronn]

Well that is my point.

PartyPoker for example blocked US player = no legal action.
FullTiltPoker did not block US players = legal action.

Just being in another country doesn't make you immune to US legal action unless you ALSO block US players you can't really do that unless you know your customers (name, address, residence information, etc).  Bitcoin doesn't really change that dynamic.  So if when the US decides to go after companies there are two routes:
a) block US players but that means collecting KYC type information (probably required for any legit company anyways).
b) go underground operating using TOR.

My point is that the idea of "just move servers" and keeping doing business as-is is hilariously naive.

I 100% agree with you.

[Banthex]

Try to gamble with altcoins 

[Desensitizer]

Converting to tor would be a huge hit to cryptocurrency gambling. Some of the people are not going to want to go to the added trouble, and others are not going to like the illegality of it. I do not think that BTC gambling sites will be hit for another few years though, it will take some of the mainstream online poker fans getting involved before that happens.

[PenAndPaper]

Worst thing that happen to those sites is to force them to comply with existing regulation. Why shutting them down already?
I think some sites like satoshidice already stopped accepting players from the US.

[BTCisthefuture]

Depends on what country they are located in.

I think it will be just like what happened with online sports books and poker sites. Eventually there will be a crackdown and people will get arrested/shut down.  The smart/lucky ones will already be in a safe country where they cant be touched and will continue to operate.

I've always been fasicnated with the story of Calvin Ayre. The gambling site he founded has been around for almost 20 years now and he is a self made billionaire despite all the arrests and shutdowns over the last 2 decades with online gambling.

[watts]

Bitcoin gambling would never survive on the darkweb. Sure, maybe there would be a site or two, but it wouldn't be thriving by any means of the imagination.

There are plenty of sites that accept USD and US players that seem to be doing just fine. The idea of targeting sites accepting something that may or may not even be considered a currency before those sites is just plain silly.

[stompix]

I don't think it matters the sites let you gamble in BTC. They will probably start getting their domains seized and stuff soon.

If the domains are seized they'll just either move to one outside US control/influence or to TOR. It is too bad too, the US is frittering away its lead in many areas. Although after the NSA scandal, perhaps that is a positive for the world if not the US

yeah, the U.S. doesn't completely control every country in the world, though it sometimes seems like that. they'd either move their sites to the darkweb or go to some safehaven country.

Usually , those countries that don't take advices from the US , are worst that the us.
As an example , everybody was saying that the piratebay should move to the .ru domains.
This is funny , because the russians were the first ones to actually try to kill a torrent website , by seizing the rutracker domain.

So , I would not think that Iran would be a safe heaven for gambling websites.

[hilariousandco]

They don't need to move to a tor/.onion-only site, just move their hosting/servers to a country that is fine with gambling.

Yeah ask Full Tilt Poker how well that strategy worked.

So is online gambling illegal in the states? I had no idea.

[TheJacob]

Converting to tor would be a huge hit to cryptocurrency gambling. Some of the people are not going to want to go to the added trouble, and others are not going to like the illegality of it. I do not think that BTC gambling sites will be hit for another few years though, it will take some of the mainstream online poker fans getting involved before that happens.

I wouldn't think that is necessary. Aside from domains getting seized they usually just go after the money.

As long as exchanges are operating there will be bitcoin gambling.