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Author Topic: 2013-12-10 Bitcoin Proves The Libertarian Idea Of Paradise Would Be Hell On Eart  (Read 4011 times)
dave111223
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December 12, 2013, 07:33:37 AM
 #21

Basically, the Bitcoin technology does not address the issue of unequal distribution of wealth. Or does it? If not, what can be done about that?

Wealth will not be equally distributed until intelligence is equally distributed; which unless we start creating generically modified babies that are all equal, will be never.
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December 12, 2013, 07:35:50 AM
 #22

to me, anarchistic ideology is a bit too simplistic. i get a lot of retorts, when they can't respond to my assertions, of "well government does that too." it's like saying you want to replace a faulty system with a faulty system.

oh, and "arming everyone with guns" is probably not going to be a panacea for world issues. someone told me that in doing so, you could prevent a big player from militarily overtaking certain regions.

I've been deeply contemplating the issue of anarchy being an unpopular solution with many people; I then discovered something today I found very odd!--this truly opened my eyes as to why it's a hit-and-miss scenario with people.  Take a look for yourself.

Mind you, I'm an EII, which belongs in the Delta quadra; what a coincidence, right?  Compare this to the Beta quadra; this is actually preferable to people.  It is here that I've discovered that not everyone wants to be bothered with self-governing; many people truly do want to participate in society as a group and make decisions with each other, and compete for higher positions in the social string.  Finally, I closely considered this point:

Quote
Individuals of the same quadra strive for a world where their four leading information elements are brought to the forefront and given the greatest freedom of expression while the other four are subdued and made to serve the leading four.

What I'm aiming for is not to change a person's ideal society; everyone likes a different way of operating in society, so I've come to understand.  What I'm truly aiming for is to change the idea that each quadra is trying to push the others into their way of living; instead, we should simply allow one another the right to live as we see fit, in whichever way works best for us.  I believe this is the core essence of voluntaryism; we should accept the differences and choose not to make anyone else follow our own lifestyles.  I want to participate in anarchism, and I believe other people should have the right to participate in hierarchies.

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December 12, 2013, 07:41:44 AM
 #23

Sooner or later the system called government is not going to make the cut, better start researching right now.

https://tlsnotary.org/ Fraud proofing decentralized fiat-Bitcoin trading.
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December 12, 2013, 07:46:58 AM
 #24

Best quote of the article.  "This kind of thing doesn't happen with the dollar."  The entire article can be rewritten with the dollar instead of bitcoin.  Good discussion is fine but blind stupidity should be offensive to all.

hello, world!
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December 12, 2013, 09:41:00 AM
 #25

http://www.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-libertarian-paradise-would-be-hell-on-earth-2013-12

Quote from: Business Insider
So the Bitcoin experience gives us a glimpse of Libertarian paradise: What life would be like with as little government interference as possible, in a market free of burdensome laws and taxes.

Unfortunately, that experience looks like a total nightmare. It's characterized by radical instability, chaos, the rise of a boss-class of criminals who assassinate people they don't like, and a mass handover of wealth to a minority even smaller than the 1% that currently lauds it in the United States.

If Bitcoin was a country — Bitcoinistan? — it would be like Somalia.

Somalia:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtGkTRnocZI


the reason why Somalia isn't Anarchy/Libertirism (like the "model") is the same as why Cuba isn't socialism: because they are stupid utopias which ignore totaly the nature of humans.

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December 12, 2013, 09:44:13 AM
 #26

http://www.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-libertarian-paradise-would-be-hell-on-earth-2013-12

Quote from: Business Insider
So the Bitcoin experience gives us a glimpse of Libertarian paradise: What life would be like with as little government interference as possible, in a market free of burdensome laws and taxes.

Unfortunately, that experience looks like a total nightmare. It's characterized by radical instability, chaos, the rise of a boss-class of criminals who assassinate people they don't like, and a mass handover of wealth to a minority even smaller than the 1% that currently lauds it in the United States.

If Bitcoin was a country — Bitcoinistan? — it would be like Somalia.

I find it pretty objectionable that he chooses to use the Central/South Asian suffix for 'land' when referring to one he implies would be "characterized by radical instability".
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December 12, 2013, 10:54:52 PM
 #27

What they're talking about on the development and project forums here on Bitcointalk is really pretty exciting. We can create blockchain style document stores. We can use the blockchain we have to store identification tokens.

Great. Do you have links to some relevant threads?

I can easily see how record keeping is one of the most important uses for government, and once it is decentralized and cryptographically proven that feature will not be needed any more from governments.

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December 13, 2013, 12:12:32 AM
 #28

What they're talking about on the development and project forums here on Bitcointalk is really pretty exciting. We can create blockchain style document stores. We can use the blockchain we have to store identification tokens.

Great. Do you have links to some relevant threads?

I can easily see how record keeping is one of the most important uses for government, and once it is decentralized and cryptographically proven that feature will not be needed any more from governments.



Confusingly titled "Passports", but they're actually ID's stored in the bitcoin blockchain, bought with bitcoin: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=140711.0

Blockchained data stores (but not in the bitcoin blockchain): https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=348868.0


Can you trust a lawyer to not conspire against you in altering a contract after the fact? Can you trust your own government not to "borrow" your identity to commit a crime, or a foreign government not to invent an identity to deceive you?

These systems, designed and implemented right, could give us something close to absolute trust in verifying the truthfulness of all sorts of useful information. I suspect that these replacement uses may be the tip of the iceberg, people who have a feel for the underlying logic of these mechanisms will invent completely novel uses that will change the world forever.

Cannot overstate the significance of this development.

Vires in numeris
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December 13, 2013, 12:14:36 AM
 #29

Basically, the Bitcoin technology does not address the issue of unequal distribution of wealth. Or does it? If not, what can be done about that?

Wealth will not be equally distributed until intelligence is equally distributed; which unless we start creating generically modified babies that are all equal, will be never.

+1

I find it interesting that in all the forum talk, blog posts, etc. I see about people worried about unequal wealth distribution, no one ever, even once, actually clearly states what the fundamental problem with it is (never mind addressing whether the wealth distribution was the cause or result.)

Bitcoin is the ultimate freedom test. It tells you who is giving lip service and who genuinely believes in it.
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In the future, books that summarize the history of money will have a line that says, “and then came bitcoin.” It is the economic singularity. And we are living in it now. - Ryan Dickherber
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The idea that deflation causes hoarding (to any problematic degree) is a lie used to justify theft of value from your savings.
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December 13, 2013, 12:19:31 AM
 #30

Basically, the Bitcoin technology does not address the issue of unequal distribution of wealth. Or does it? If not, what can be done about that?

Wealth will not be equally distributed until intelligence is equally distributed; which unless we start creating generically modified babies that are all equal, will be never.

+1

I find it interesting that in all the forum talk, blog posts, etc. I see about people worried about unequal wealth distribution, no one ever, even once, actually clearly states what the fundamental problem with it is (never mind addressing whether the wealth distribution was the cause or result.)


you must be from north europe to ask that.
I invite you to come here to Brazil where I make you understand very quick

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December 13, 2013, 06:21:16 AM
 #31

Basically, the Bitcoin technology does not address the issue of unequal distribution of wealth. Or does it? If not, what can be done about that?

Wealth will not be equally distributed until intelligence is equally distributed; which unless we start creating generically modified babies that are all equal, will be never.

+1

I find it interesting that in all the forum talk, blog posts, etc. I see about people worried about unequal wealth distribution, no one ever, even once, actually clearly states what the fundamental problem with it is (never mind addressing whether the wealth distribution was the cause or result.)


you must be from north europe to ask that.
I invite you to come here to Brazil where I make you understand very quick

Would you be okay with just stating it in a sentence or two?

Bitcoin is the ultimate freedom test. It tells you who is giving lip service and who genuinely believes in it.
...
...
In the future, books that summarize the history of money will have a line that says, “and then came bitcoin.” It is the economic singularity. And we are living in it now. - Ryan Dickherber
...
...
ATTENTION BFL MINING NEWBS: Just got your Jalapenos in? Wondering how to get the most value for the least hassle? Give BitMinter a try! It's a smaller pool with a fair & low-fee payment method, lots of statistical feedback, and it's easier than EasyMiner! (Yes, we want your hashing power, but seriously, it IS the easiest pool to use! Sign up in seconds to try it!)
...
...
The idea that deflation causes hoarding (to any problematic degree) is a lie used to justify theft of value from your savings.
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December 13, 2013, 07:53:10 AM
 #32

you must be from north europe to ask that.
I invite you to come here to Brazil where I make you understand very quick

I am from Asia. I'll support his question. Wealth and intelligence is proportional. The more intelligent you get, the more money you make. What I don't want is an extreme Communist dictatorship (similar to the USSR), where everyone gets equal salary no matter what their qualifications and merits are.

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December 13, 2013, 09:06:55 AM
 #33

http://www.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-libertarian-paradise-would-be-hell-on-earth-2013-12

Quote from: Business Insider
So the Bitcoin experience gives us a glimpse of Libertarian paradise: What life would be like with as little government interference as possible, in a market free of burdensome laws and taxes.

Unfortunately, that experience looks like a total nightmare. It's characterized by radical instability, chaos, the rise of a boss-class of criminals who assassinate people they don't like, and a mass handover of wealth to a minority even smaller than the 1% that currently lauds it in the United States.

If Bitcoin was a country — Bitcoinistan? — it would be like Somalia.

Somalia:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtGkTRnocZI


the reason why Somalia isn't Anarchy/Libertirism (like the "model") is the same as why Cuba isn't socialism: because they are stupid utopias which ignore totaly the nature of humans.

this is the point i've tried to make, but anarchists always retort with a "but government is that way too!"
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December 13, 2013, 11:14:56 AM
 #34

Quote
the rise of a boss-class of criminals who assassinate people they don't like

Oh yes, and this never happens in countries with all-mighty governments like Russia for example. There is no mafia in Russia assassinating people they don't like! And in all mighty government paradises like North Korea they never kill people they don't like! Oh wait..
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December 13, 2013, 01:24:47 PM
 #35

Basically, the Bitcoin technology does not address the issue of unequal distribution of wealth. Or does it? If not, what can be done about that?

Wealth will not be equally distributed until intelligence is equally distributed; which unless we start creating generically modified babies that are all equal, will be never.

+1

I find it interesting that in all the forum talk, blog posts, etc. I see about people worried about unequal wealth distribution, no one ever, even once, actually clearly states what the fundamental problem with it is (never mind addressing whether the wealth distribution was the cause or result.)


you must be from north europe to ask that.
I invite you to come here to Brazil where I make you understand very quick

Would you be okay with just stating it in a sentence or two?



you wouldn't understand it as you have suggestions implanted which wouldn't accept my explanations. rarely people in a privilaged situation understand how it is not to be

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December 13, 2013, 01:33:43 PM
 #36

http://www.businessinsider.com/bitcoin-libertarian-paradise-would-be-hell-on-earth-2013-12

Quote from: Business Insider
So the Bitcoin experience gives us a glimpse of Libertarian paradise: What life would be like with as little government interference as possible, in a market free of burdensome laws and taxes.

Unfortunately, that experience looks like a total nightmare. It's characterized by radical instability, chaos, the rise of a boss-class of criminals who assassinate people they don't like, and a mass handover of wealth to a minority even smaller than the 1% that currently lauds it in the United States.

If Bitcoin was a country — Bitcoinistan? — it would be like Somalia.

Somalia:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtGkTRnocZI


the reason why Somalia isn't Anarchy/Libertirism (like the "model") is the same as why Cuba isn't socialism: because they are stupid utopias which ignore totaly the nature of humans.

this is the point i've tried to make, but anarchists always retort with a "but government is that way too!"


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias

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December 13, 2013, 04:02:28 PM
 #37

Quote

When you have a normal bank account with cash in it, you're almost guaranteed not to lose the money.


They should have read THIS first, damn govt-fed journalism hypocrites.

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December 13, 2013, 04:16:13 PM
 #38

Basically, the Bitcoin technology does not address the issue of unequal distribution of wealth. Or does it? If not, what can be done about that?

Wealth will not be equally distributed until intelligence is equally distributed; which unless we start creating generically modified babies that are all equal, will be never.

+1

I find it interesting that in all the forum talk, blog posts, etc. I see about people worried about unequal wealth distribution, no one ever, even once, actually clearly states what the fundamental problem with it is (never mind addressing whether the wealth distribution was the cause or result.)


you must be from north europe to ask that.
I invite you to come here to Brazil where I make you understand very quick

Would you be okay with just stating it in a sentence or two?



you wouldn't understand it as you have suggestions implanted which wouldn't accept my explanations. rarely people in a privilaged situation understand how it is not to be

Privilege is relative.

I ask the question because the idea that wealth-distribution is the problem suggests an absurdity. It suggests that if everyone was dirt poor, but equally so, then that situation is preferable to some being dirt-poor and some being "filthy rich."

Do you believe that to be true? If not, then it's just the overall level of wealth (and the lack of freedom to attain it,) not it's distribution, that's the real problem, yes?

Bitcoin is the ultimate freedom test. It tells you who is giving lip service and who genuinely believes in it.
...
...
In the future, books that summarize the history of money will have a line that says, “and then came bitcoin.” It is the economic singularity. And we are living in it now. - Ryan Dickherber
...
...
ATTENTION BFL MINING NEWBS: Just got your Jalapenos in? Wondering how to get the most value for the least hassle? Give BitMinter a try! It's a smaller pool with a fair & low-fee payment method, lots of statistical feedback, and it's easier than EasyMiner! (Yes, we want your hashing power, but seriously, it IS the easiest pool to use! Sign up in seconds to try it!)
...
...
The idea that deflation causes hoarding (to any problematic degree) is a lie used to justify theft of value from your savings.
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December 13, 2013, 05:35:18 PM
 #39

Basically, the Bitcoin technology does not address the issue of unequal distribution of wealth. Or does it? If not, what can be done about that?

Wealth will not be equally distributed until intelligence is equally distributed; which unless we start creating generically modified babies that are all equal, will be never.

+1

I find it interesting that in all the forum talk, blog posts, etc. I see about people worried about unequal wealth distribution, no one ever, even once, actually clearly states what the fundamental problem with it is (never mind addressing whether the wealth distribution was the cause or result.)


you must be from north europe to ask that.
I invite you to come here to Brazil where I make you understand very quick

Would you be okay with just stating it in a sentence or two?



you wouldn't understand it as you have suggestions implanted which wouldn't accept my explanations. rarely people in a privilaged situation understand how it is not to be

Privilege is relative.

I ask the question because the idea that wealth-distribution is the problem suggests an absurdity. It suggests that if everyone was dirt poor, but equally so, then that situation is preferable to some being dirt-poor and some being "filthy rich."

Do you believe that to be true? If not, then it's just the overall level of wealth (and the lack of freedom to attain it,) not it's distribution, that's the real problem, yes?


Just saying that extremely unequal wealth distribution is a bad thing, doesn't mean that all wealth has to be distributed equally. I know there is considerable debate on whether or not societies that are more equal are better off over all and in general more harmonious. But brushing that debate off entirely and simply stating it is something we can completely ignore and is always without consequence is at best arrogant.

The train of thought that when living a protected life of privilege one says that all the masses living in ghetto have only themselves to blame for their misery needs to be substantiated before I'll buy the argument. In fact there is plenty of evidence showing that there is little class mobility, at least in industrialized nations. That doesn't mean that all poor people are stupid and all rich people are smart, it means that society is NOT meritocratic. Of course the more meritocratic a society is, the easier it would be to accept more glaring inequalities. But then one has to determine what merits will be judged.

What I'm saying is not that equality is necessarily the most important thing of all, but it is not an issue one should brush off as inconsequential without a reasoned and thorough argument.
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December 13, 2013, 06:14:44 PM
 #40

Quote
When you have a normal bank account with cash in it, you're almost guaranteed not to lose the money.
They should have read THIS first, damn govt-fed journalism hypocrites.

Zeroday is right, but they also should have read this:
http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0001519.html

Money in bank accounts today are pretty much guaranteed to lose money either through zeroday's experience or through inflation.
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