ALLMINE INC - FPGA Cryptominer

[melpheos]

I'm still a bit miffed about the VAT treatment of the orders...
While I agree that the hosting fee is subject to VAT for EU clients (under the law on sale of electronic services), I disagree with fpga.land (and/or mineority.io) charging VAT at source for the fpga units... with the argumentation that I would take delivery of the item some time in the future.

If I have the fpga hosted by mineority, the item never leaves US territory and hence isn't VATable in my understanding. VAT should only be paid if and when the item is shipped to the EU. VAT should then be paid on the value of the item at the time of entry.

If I walk into a WalMart when I'm on holiday in the US, I am not charged VAT on my purchases. If I go to Amazon.com (US), buy a fan and send it to my friend to use in his house, I am not paying VAT on that transaction.

If I go to fpga.land, buy an fpga and have it sent&hosted at mineority, I should not be charged VAT.

Use a reship service in that case.
Give the US address and you wont get charge VAT untill it's shipped (and in that case, it should be declared as a lower value as it's a used item)
In any case, VAT should not be charged as the service is provided in the US so it's not a taxable event in your origin country. I also doubt that VAT will be forwarded to your country so that part is very sketchy.

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[Iamtutut]

I'm still a bit miffed about the VAT treatment of the orders...
While I agree that the hosting fee is subject to VAT for EU clients (under the law on sale of electronic services), I disagree with fpga.land (and/or mineority.io) charging VAT at source for the fpga units... with the argumentation that I would take delivery of the item some time in the future.

If I have the fpga hosted by mineority, the item never leaves US territory and hence isn't VATable in my understanding. VAT should only be paid if and when the item is shipped to the EU. VAT should then be paid on the value of the item at the time of entry.

If I go to fpga.land, buy an fpga and have it sent&hosted at mineority, I should not be charged VAT.

You should be VAT charged in the country of delivery, if there is a VAT there. Legally speaking, you can be charged with VAT at source, only for a direct shipping to the EU. The seller must provide the evidence that the VAT is paid with a custom declaration.

As you said, once shipped to the EU after hosting, it's only the real 2nd hand market price, at the day of shipping and according to the invoice (if authentic invoice with actual value) that is the legal base of the VAT, nothing else.

Therefore, it is illegal (means fraud) to charge with VAT a good that is not actually shipped to the UE. Why is it a fraud ? VAT is collected on behalf of countries when the good is bound to cross the fiscal border (custom declaration). The collected VAT is sent to feed the national budget. Collecting the VAT without any legal base means the business owner is keeping it.

[CryptoCoin101]

Hashrates:
Lyra2z (8,8,8) - 20.48Mh/s 150W ~ Still under development
Cryptonight variant 1 / monero version 7 - 14Kh/s 150W



Notes: Only posting hashrate numbers we're 100% sure about. Cores still under development are expected to increase in hashrate.

How would these FPGA update on regular algorithm update of Monero?

[Longsnowsm]

Just curious what everyone's thoughts are on the effective lifespan of this FPGA board before it is replaced with a "new hotness"?  Just wondering how realistic it will be to ROI on the board before we are killed with the next board.  Thoughts?

[melpheos]

Just curious what everyone's thoughts are on the effective lifespan of this FPGA board before it is replaced with a "new hotness"?  Just wondering how realistic it will be to ROI on the board before we are killed with the next board.  Thoughts?

The VCU1525 is quite a recent board and there is not a lot of company developping FPGA. The concurrence is lower and developpement slower than on GPU because of lack on incentive and in particular lack of use.
FPGA are not made for mining in the first place but of course, if a company can develop a chip with more gates that can support the power sent through it, a VCU1525 could become obsolete but i doubt this is in the near future.

[dragonmike]

I'm still a bit miffed about the VAT treatment of the orders...
While I agree that the hosting fee is subject to VAT for EU clients (under the law on sale of electronic services), I disagree with fpga.land (and/or mineority.io) charging VAT at source for the fpga units... with the argumentation that I would take delivery of the item some time in the future.

If I have the fpga hosted by mineority, the item never leaves US territory and hence isn't VATable in my understanding. VAT should only be paid if and when the item is shipped to the EU. VAT should then be paid on the value of the item at the time of entry.

If I go to fpga.land, buy an fpga and have it sent&hosted at mineority, I should not be charged VAT.

You should be VAT charged in the country of delivery, if there is a VAT there. Legally speaking, you can be charged with VAT at source, only for a direct shipping to the EU. The seller must provide the evidence that the VAT is paid with a custom declaration.

As you said, once shipped to the EU after hosting, it's only the real 2nd hand market price, at the day of shipping and according to the invoice (if authentic invoice with actual value) that is the legal base of the VAT, nothing else.

Therefore, it is illegal (means fraud) to charge with VAT a good that is not actually shipped to the UE. Why is it a fraud ? VAT is collected on behalf of countries when the good is bound to cross the fiscal border (custom declaration). The collected VAT is sent to feed the national budget. Collecting the VAT without any legal base means the business owner is keeping it.

Thanks, dude, this has been my point all along.
Do you have any links to back this up? I've been trying to argue this with the guys over at fpga.land and mineority but they haven't yet budged.

[Iamtutut]

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/eu-vat-rules-topic/chargeable-event-chargeability_en
Importation of goods from outside the EU
Basic rule
The chargeable event occurs – and VAT becomes chargeable – when the following types of goods enter the EU:

goods that are not for free circulation in the EU [personnal note: this means that the custom duties pre VAT have not been paid]
goods from EU territories not covered by EU VAT rules that are in free circulation.
(Article 70 VAT Directive)


Summmary of legislation here:
https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/eu-vat-rules-topic_en

EDIT: this is the OFFICIAL EU Commission website.

[RivAngE]

Just curious what everyone's thoughts are on the effective lifespan of this FPGA board before it is replaced with a "new hotness"?  Just wondering how realistic it will be to ROI on the board before we are killed with the next board.  Thoughts?

The VCU1525 is quite a recent board and there is not a lot of company developping FPGA. The concurrence is lower and developpement slower than on GPU because of lack on incentive and in particular lack of use.
FPGA are not made for mining in the first place but of course, if a company can develop a chip with more gates that can support the power sent through it, a VCU1525 could become obsolete but i doubt this is in the near future.

I'm confused with something... what's the difference of VCU1525 and BCU1525?
The BCU1525 is based on the Xilinx VU9P board and it's modified by a group (I think the OhGodCompany?) in order to consume less power and run better on mining.
But what is the VCU1525?

[melpheos]

Just curious what everyone's thoughts are on the effective lifespan of this FPGA board before it is replaced with a "new hotness"?  Just wondering how realistic it will be to ROI on the board before we are killed with the next board.  Thoughts?

The VCU1525 is quite a recent board and there is not a lot of company developping FPGA. The concurrence is lower and developpement slower than on GPU because of lack on incentive and in particular lack of use.
FPGA are not made for mining in the first place but of course, if a company can develop a chip with more gates that can support the power sent through it, a VCU1525 could become obsolete but i doubt this is in the near future.

I'm confused with something... what's the difference of VCU1525 and BCU1525?
The BCU1525 is based on the Xilinx VU9P board and it's modified by a group (I think the OhGodCompany?) in order to consume less power and run better on mining.
But what is the VCU1525?

No, the BCU1525 is the modified by FPGALand Xilinx VCU1525 which has a VU9P chip in it
The VU9P is not a board, it's a chip

[colomine]

@Senseless,
@GPU Horader,
Are there any updates regarding the time  FPGAs will be ready for shippment?
I am asking cause whitefire990 has mentioned September on his website regarding this group buy and not August.

Where can I get information on other hardware requirements (motherboard etc) and on RAM compatibiity for BCU1525. Mine are bought without RAM. I haven't checked this thread and Discord channel in a while.

Thanks

[lok8nusa]

@colomine:

The FPGA Land BCU-1525 is scheduled for August shipping.

@whitefire990 is working with Bittware on their FPGA, which I believe is the one that he says ships in September.

The specs/requirements have not been fully published. squirrelsresearch.com and Discord is where most of the available info is currently.

[colomine]

...once shipped to the EU after hosting, it's only the real 2nd hand market price, at the day of shipping and according to the invoice (if authentic invoice with actual value) that is the legal base of the VAT, nothing else

@Iamtutut,
I am maybe pulling it out of a context, but why 2nd hand market price applies here and not the original price?  Certainly there is a significant depreciation of value , but customs will be happy to calculate VAT on original price unless there is a rule that states otherwise. If mineority enters 2nd hand market price in the customs declaration, then it could work. But are you aware of any European rule that regulates that exact scenario (that it is the fair market value goods +delivery and not the orignal price that is taxed)?
Thanks!
PS: Thanks for the VAT links.

[Iamtutut]

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/eu-vat-rules-topic/chargeable-event-chargeability_en
Importation of goods from outside the EU
Basic rule
The chargeable event occurs – and VAT becomes chargeable – when the following types of goods enter the EU:


That's just above. VAT is calculated on the value of one good when it enters the UE.

If the actual price of the BCU1525 is unchanged at 3600USD after hosting at mineority (1,2 or 3 years) -at the day of shipping-, then the VAT is due on 3600USD.

Keep in mind that some 2nd hand market goods can see their value increase eg rare cars, luxury goods, vintage items...

[dragonmike]

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/eu-vat-rules-topic/chargeable-event-chargeability_en
Importation of goods from outside the EU
Basic rule
The chargeable event occurs – and VAT becomes chargeable – when the following types of goods enter the EU:


That's just above. VAT is calculated on the value of one good when it enters the UE.

If the actual price of the BCU1525 is unchanged at 3600USD after hosting at mineority (1,2 or 3 years) -at the day of shipping-, then the VAT is due on 3600USD.

Keep in mind that some 2nd hand market goods can see their value increase eg rare cars, luxury goods, vintage items...

...which is why fpga.land's charging me VAT on an item that isn't shipped to the EU (because it will be hosted) at 20% on the new price is wrong on two accounts.

I have asked them to refund me that VAT.

We shall see.

[GPUHoarder]

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/eu-vat-rules-topic/chargeable-event-chargeability_en
Importation of goods from outside the EU
Basic rule
The chargeable event occurs – and VAT becomes chargeable – when the following types of goods enter the EU:


That's just above. VAT is calculated on the value of one good when it enters the UE.

If the actual price of the BCU1525 is unchanged at 3600USD after hosting at mineority (1,2 or 3 years) -at the day of shipping-, then the VAT is due on 3600USD.

Keep in mind that some 2nd hand market goods can see their value increase eg rare cars, luxury goods, vintage items...

...which is why fpga.land's charging me VAT on an item that isn't shipped to the EU (because it will be hosted) at 20% on the new price is wrong on two accounts.

I have asked them to refund me that VAT.

We shall see.

Sorry that is not the way VAT works on collocation services. I’ve spent years dealing with this. It is not an import tax, it is a consumption tax on EU citizens. It does not matter that a US company is selling.

As such, when you buy a 1525 and it is placed into service (consumption) you pay VAT, and when you pay for it to be hosted that service is also VAT charged - all of which must be collected and remitted by us, otherwise we get audited they see the sales to EU customers and WE are responsible for the VAT. I’ve been through it.

When it is ultimately shipped to you we do a DDP.

[KaydenC]

Not a EU citizen or tax lawyer, but it appears Mineority's site only asks for the shipping address.

Is it not possible to use a throwaway US address and sell the FPGA on the platform before hosting ends, or use a freight forwarder address and only pay the tax on depreciated value of the BCU1525 after 1-3 years?

[Iamtutut]

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/eu-vat-rules-topic/chargeable-event-chargeability_en
Importation of goods from outside the EU
Basic rule
The chargeable event occurs – and VAT becomes chargeable – when the following types of goods enter the EU:


That's just above. VAT is calculated on the value of one good when it enters the UE.

If the actual price of the BCU1525 is unchanged at 3600USD after hosting at mineority (1,2 or 3 years) -at the day of shipping-, then the VAT is due on 3600USD.

Keep in mind that some 2nd hand market goods can see their value increase eg rare cars, luxury goods, vintage items...

...which is why fpga.land's charging me VAT on an item that isn't shipped to the EU (because it will be hosted) at 20% on the new price is wrong on two accounts.

I have asked them to refund me that VAT.

We shall see.

Sorry that is not the way VAT works on collocation services. I’ve spent years dealing with this. It is not an import tax, it is a consumption tax on EU citizens. It does not matter that a US company is selling.

As such, when you buy a 1525 and it is placed into service (consumption) you pay VAT, and when you pay for it to be hosted that service is also VAT charged - all of which must be collected and remitted by us, otherwise we get audited they see the sales to EU customers and WE are responsible for the VAT. I’ve been through it.

When it is ultimately shipped to you we do a DDP.

Even if you should consider that the hosting service is consumed at destination of the EU, the VAT applies only on the hosting, that is the service. There can not have any VAT on the BCU1525 until it's delivered to the EU.

[Iamtutut]

Not a EU citizen or tax lawyer, but it appears Mineority's site only asks for the shipping address.

Is it not possible to use a throwaway US address and sell the FPGA on the platform before hosting ends, or use a freight forwarder address and only pay the tax on depreciated value of the BCU1525 after 1-3 years?

Which depreciated value ? Mineority will resale it at the same purchase price, they won't lose money. They help the community a big lot, but we shouldn't ask too much.

[GPUHoarder]

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/business/vat/eu-vat-rules-topic/chargeable-event-chargeability_en
Importation of goods from outside the EU
Basic rule
The chargeable event occurs – and VAT becomes chargeable – when the following types of goods enter the EU:


That's just above. VAT is calculated on the value of one good when it enters the UE.

If the actual price of the BCU1525 is unchanged at 3600USD after hosting at mineority (1,2 or 3 years) -at the day of shipping-, then the VAT is due on 3600USD.

Keep in mind that some 2nd hand market goods can see their value increase eg rare cars, luxury goods, vintage items...

...which is why fpga.land's charging me VAT on an item that isn't shipped to the EU (because it will be hosted) at 20% on the new price is wrong on two accounts.

I have asked them to refund me that VAT.

We shall see.

Sorry that is not the way VAT works on collocation services. I’ve spent years dealing with this. It is not an import tax, it is a consumption tax on EU citizens. It does not matter that a US company is selling.

As such, when you buy a 1525 and it is placed into service (consumption) you pay VAT, and when you pay for it to be hosted that service is also VAT charged - all of which must be collected and remitted by us, otherwise we get audited they see the sales to EU customers and WE are responsible for the VAT. I’ve been through it.

When it is ultimately shipped to you we do a DDP.

Even if you should consider that the hosting service is consumed at destination of the EU, the VAT applies only on the hosting, that is the service. There can not have any VAT on the BCU1525 until it's delivered to the EU.

I’m happy to have your accountant argue with our accountant, but on our end we have to do what the professionals we pay to handle all this tell us. I’ve had to eat $500k in VAT before because someone “didn’t think we were supposed to charge it.”, and I won’t do that again.

[Iamtutut]

I’m happy to have your accountant argue with our accountant, but on our end we have to do what the professionals we pay to handle all this tell us. I’ve had to eat $500k in VAT before because someone “didn’t think we were supposed to charge it.”, and I won’t do that again.

I don't need an accountant, dealing with custom rules is my daily job. More details in DM