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Author Topic: Altcoin - the alternative cryptocurrency?  (Read 10181 times)
becoin
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September 03, 2011, 06:01:37 PM
 #81

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No, I mean people will only buy what's absolutely necessary and nothing else.
That is good. The planet has a chance to be saved.

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Thus people will get fired, companies will go bankrupt and the economy contracts.
Of course. This is the natural end of every bubble. There comes a moment when it can't be inflated anymore and it bursts. The bigger the bubble the dire the consequences.

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You are not forced to buy stuff you don't need in inflation or demurrage. You can save your money by buying assets instead of holding the money in your bank account.
1. If nobody is holding their money in a bank account because of the inflation how would banks find money to give credit? Looks like the central bank will print money and 'buy' from banks their junk loan portfolio?
2. So, it is worse than I thought. You are not forcing people to buy stuff but force them to speculate on the stock market?... Just to preserve the purchasing power of their money?... Isn't that insane?... BTW, why don't you check out what were the level of DOW, S&P or DAX 10 years ago, or NIKKEI 20 years ago?

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JohnDoe
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September 04, 2011, 12:01:41 AM
 #82

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No, I mean people will only buy what's absolutely necessary and nothing else.
That is good. The planet has a chance to be saved.

No, it's not good. The planet doesn't need any saving, only life does. Basically you are advocating going back to a hunter-gatherer society just to accommodate an oversized population, which I find ridiculous. I'm unwilling to make that sacrifice and probably you too. Electricity isn't necessary, neither is hot water, cars, clean clothes, houses, toothpaste, etc. Are you willing to live without those to 'save the planet' or 'for the greater good'? If you say yes then you are lying to yourself.

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Thus people will get fired, companies will go bankrupt and the economy contracts.
Of course. This is the natural end of every bubble. There comes a moment when it can't be inflated anymore and it bursts. The bigger the bubble the dire the consequences.

Yeah, but we are talking about deflation. That is what will happen if we have a monetary system with constant deflation.


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You are not forced to buy stuff you don't need in inflation or demurrage. You can save your money by buying assets instead of holding the money in your bank account.
1. If nobody is holding their money in a bank account because of the inflation how would banks find money to give credit? Looks like the central bank will print money and 'buy' from banks their junk loan portfolio?
2. So, it is worse than I thought. You are not forcing people to buy stuff but force them to speculate on the stock market?... Just to preserve the purchasing power of their money?... Isn't that insane?... BTW, why don't you check out what were the level of DOW, S&P or DAX 10 years ago, or NIKKEI 20 years ago?

It is not insane. You have to keep moving all the time to preserve your wealth and that is a good thing as it forces progress. Some will fail at keeping their wealth and some will succeed. It's evolution. What's really insane is expanding your purchasing power just by holding money, then there's no reason to ever work, to ever move again. Why would anyone go through the effort and risk of creating a company to sell some good or service if it's equally or even more profitable to just hold the initial capital?
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September 04, 2011, 08:06:38 AM
 #83

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Electricity isn't necessary, neither is hot water, cars, clean clothes, houses, toothpaste, etc. Are you willing to live without those to 'save the planet' or 'for the greater good'?
Let the people decide for themselves what they need and what they don't. Don't use inflation to 'show' them what they need or to force them to act! People are not fools that need their actions directed by forcing inflation punishment upon them!

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What's really insane is expanding your purchasing power just by holding money, then there's no reason to ever work, to ever move again.
I suggest reading some books before talking nonsense. Lack of inflation is not deflation! Monetary inflation is usual for the world economy only for the last 40 years since the gold standard was canceled in 1971 and the era of pure fiat currencies begun. Gold and silver were used as money for the last 6000 years. Do you really think that during all those 6000 years (minus last 40) people were insane? Do you really think there was no reason during all those 6000 years (minus last 40) to work or move, create art or businesses, or people became rich only by holding gold and doing nothing? Come on, raise your head up and take a look beyond your nose!

Inflation has no positive influence on economy. It is just unlawful tax imposed by the government that can and should be easily removed from our everyday life. Get over this.


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September 04, 2011, 04:41:02 PM
 #84

Let the people decide for themselves what they need and what they don't. Don't use inflation to 'show' them what they need or to force them to act! People are not fools that need their actions directed by forcing inflation punishment upon them!

Jesus christ you are a lost case. I don't know why I bother. Btw, I'm not making a case for inflation, I'm making a case against deflation.

I suggest reading some books before talking nonsense. Lack of inflation is not deflation! Monetary inflation is usual for the world economy only for the last 40 years since the gold standard was canceled in 1971 and the era of pure fiat currencies begun. Gold and silver were used as money for the last 6000 years. Do you really think that during all those 6000 years (minus last 40) people were insane? Do you really think there was no reason during all those 6000 years (minus last 40) to work or move, create art or businesses, or people became rich only by holding gold and doing nothing? Come on, raise your head up and take a look beyond your nose!

I suggest you take your own advice and research before talking bullshit because there was mostly inflation during the gold standard.

Inflation has no positive influence on economy. It is just unlawful tax imposed by the government that can and should be easily removed from our everyday life. Get over this.

No shit it's an unlawful tax, but we are not talking about a government issued currency you stupid motherfucker, we are talking about the best model for a decentralized cryptocurrency. If you believe a currency with pure deflation can work then you are just retarded and that's all there is to it.
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September 06, 2011, 05:04:50 AM
 #85

"-> I personally think that inflation > deflation."

You must either be a neocon or a democrat.  Inflation is never good if you use the coins and don't have any loans outstanding.  If your a miner inflation is good because you get to steal off the workers and businesses.  If you are a government inflation can be good because it is a hidden tax.

On the other hand deflation is never good for anyone because saving is heavily encouraged so the economy stagnates.

You have $10,000 in the bank and now it is worth more.  That is GOOD for the economy.  The saver can go to the store and now buy 2 cars instead of one.   This is the only reason I am interested in cryptocurrencies, they are like full reserve banking and a gold standard tied into one.  Fuck the banks, fuck the people who live on credit, and double fuck the government workers that spend even though the credit limit is hit.

EVERY recession and depression was caused by banks, loans, and or fractional-reserve lending.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1837  Banks spent money they didn't have and only accepted silver for deposits.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1857  Look at the picture, notice the bank run.  Fractional reserve, the banks loaned more gold than was in the banks and stole the people money.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1873  Look at the picture.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1893 Banks over spending other peoples money on railroads.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1907  Look at the picture, bank loans for spending on stocks weeeeee.

 

johnj
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September 06, 2011, 05:13:22 AM
 #86


You have $10,000 in the bank and now it is worth more.  That is GOOD for the economy.  The saver can go to the store and now buy 2 cars instead of one.   This is the only reason I am interested in cryptocurrencies, they are like full reserve banking and a gold standard tied into one.  Fuck the banks, fuck the people who live on credit, and double fuck the government workers that spend even though the credit limit is hit.

EVERY recession and depression was caused by banks, loans, and or fractional-reserve lending.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1857

You have $10,000 in the bank, so you sit on it because you know it'll grow.  So does your neighbor.  And the guy down the street.  Everyone is sitting on their money waiting for it to grow.  No one is spending.  That car dealership you're talking about now has to lay off more employees because there isn't enough business.  So does the baker.  The newspaper hits: "Everyone is being laid off!".  With a poor job outlook, people save more for the rough times ahead.  Rinse/repeat.


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steelhouse
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September 06, 2011, 05:23:37 AM
 #87


You have $10,000 in the bank and now it is worth more.  That is GOOD for the economy.  The saver can go to the store and now buy 2 cars instead of one.   This is the only reason I am interested in cryptocurrencies, they are like full reserve banking and a gold standard tied into one.  Fuck the banks, fuck the people who live on credit, and double fuck the government workers that spend even though the credit limit is hit.

EVERY recession and depression was caused by banks, loans, and or fractional-reserve lending.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panic_of_1857

You have $10,000 in the bank, so you sit on it because you know it'll grow.  So does your neighbor.  And the guy down the street.  Everyone is sitting on their money waiting for it to grow.  No one is spending.  That car dealership you're talking about now has to lay off more employees because there isn't enough business.  So does the baker.  The newspaper hits: "Everyone is being laid off!".  With a poor job outlook, people save more for the rough times ahead.  Rinse/repeat.

If you have $10,000 in the bank and cars drop to $500, I buy one.  The cost of a trip to Europe drops to $100 I go on a trip.  People don't sit on their savings.  They spend it.  They earned it.  They work to earn money, to take trips and buy cars.  Their money will go further.  Government making money out of nothing is no more moral than throwing grandma out of her house, taking $20,000 of her $100,000 savings every year. Then kicking dirt on her while she is laying on the ground.

Obama and Reich are no more than asshole bullies that make money worth less, they make unemployment higher, make work conditions worse, force workers to work longer hours for less pay, make school more expensive, destroy the middle class, make healthcare unaffordable, EVERYTHING THEY PROPOSE does the exact opposite!!!!!!!!   
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September 06, 2011, 06:02:24 AM
 #88

If you have $10,000 in the bank and cars drop to $500, I buy one.  The cost of a trip to Europe drops to $100 I go on a trip.  People don't sit on their savings.  They spend it.  They earned it.  They work to earn money, to take trips and buy cars.

Wow, that's possibly the most concise way I've seen of obliterating the absurd argument that savings is bad. Who does anyone know who sits around and prefers to count their money on a regular basis rather than go on vacation or work on their house or watch movies or anything else other than count their money?

This is also discussed by Alasdair Macleod and James Turk.

Steelhouse, just protect yourself and your assets. Leading by example is far more productive than trying to force an individual's perception to change. Knowing what you can influence over what you can't is critical to surviving the final stages of the ongoing catastrophe; channel your outrage.
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September 06, 2011, 06:40:58 AM
 #89

If you have $10,000 in the bank and cars drop to $500, I buy one.  The cost of a trip to Europe drops to $100 I go on a trip.  People don't sit on their savings.  They spend it.  They earned it.  They work to earn money, to take trips and buy cars.

Wow, that's possibly the most concise way I've seen of obliterating the absurd argument that savings is bad. Who does anyone know who sits around and prefers to count their money on a regular basis rather than go on vacation or work on their house or watch movies or anything else other than count their money?
Scrooge McDuck?

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becoin
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September 06, 2011, 06:48:14 AM
 #90

Everyone is sitting on their money waiting for it to grow.
But how will their money grow if interest rate on those 'accounts' is zero?

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steelhouse
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September 06, 2011, 07:05:34 AM
 #91

Everyone is sitting on their money waiting for it to grow.
But how will their money grow if interest rate on those 'accounts' is zero?

The present interest rates on money in your checking account in terms of value is negative 5-20%.  If you could earn 5% interest your money would be shrinking.  All you have to do is look at change in m1 money supply.  money supply chasing goods is the value of money.  m1 is the closest factor to loose spendable money in the economy.  m3 such as 5 year cds is locked up and does not effect the money supply as much.   There will be inflation the lag has not hit yet.

If interest rates are zero, their money will not grow in the present dollar world.  However, in cryptocurrencies their will be some deflation.  From 1840-1914 there was basically deflation overall.  When you get a job, you don't get a raise but your money is worth more with time.

Savers money can only grow if interest exceeds inflation, or there is deflation.  If interest is zero, bitcoin will far exceed dollar deflation due to lost coins.
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September 06, 2011, 07:36:11 AM
 #92

However, in cryptocurrencies their will be some deflation.  From 1840-1914 there was basically deflation overall. 
From 1840-1914 there were no cryptocurrencies. How did that happen?

If interest is zero, bitcoin will far exceed dollar deflation due to lost coins.
1. How did you know a coin is lost?
2. Don't people lose dollar banknotes as well?


Inflation fans stress on the fact that inflation forces people to buy goods and services just to avoid their money devaluing on their checking accounts. They say that is good for the economy.

- 'A' produces goods and services in excess.
- 'B' produces goods and services in excess as well.
- Both 'A' and 'B' purchase goods and services of each other not because they need it but to allow their counterpart to have the funds to purchase the goods and services they don't actually need. Thus, some people say, economy will grow.

This is not a definition of economy. This isn't even a definition of a ponzi scheme. This is a definition of insanity!


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September 06, 2011, 03:34:04 PM
 #93

If you have $10,000 in the bank and cars drop to $500, I buy one.  The cost of a trip to Europe drops to $100 I go on a trip.  People don't sit on their savings.  They spend it.  They earned it.  They work to earn money, to take trips and buy cars.  Their money will go further. 

The time preference argument only works for legal tender currencies. If you are free to use any currency you will just save with the deflationary one and spend with the inflationary one.

Government making money out of nothing is no more moral than throwing grandma out of her house, taking $20,000 of her $100,000 savings every year. Then kicking dirt on her while she is laying on the ground.

Jesus christ. Why do people keep using this argument? Nobody is disputing this and it doesn't help your case in favor of deflation. In fact it hurts your case when you try to bring in morality to a discussion about economic models as it implies you don't have good logical arguments and have to resort to appeals to emotion.

Everyone is sitting on their money waiting for it to grow.
But how will their money grow if interest rate on those 'accounts' is zero?

He is obviously talking about purchasing power, not in nominal terms.
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September 06, 2011, 03:53:41 PM
 #94

Who does anyone know who sits around and prefers to count their money on a regular basis rather than go on vacation or work on their house or watch movies or anything else other than count their money?



REALLY?!  Have you not talked to *anyone* who was on the wrong end of the depression in the 30's?

There are lots of people who don't save so they can go on nice trips they  save so that they and their children can eat food and have clothes if times get rough.

If the only hardship you've been through is not having enough cash to go to the movies...

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becoin
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September 06, 2011, 04:54:49 PM
 #95

He is obviously talking about purchasing power, not in nominal terms.
I know what he is talking about, he doesn't. If you have natural money as gold (neither inflationary nor deflationary) price of goods and services will decrease because productivity is increasing. This, however, IS NOT DEFLATION! Learn to make difference between inflation/deflation in general and MONETARY inflation/deflation! Money is just metric of value that helps exchange goods and services. This is why money should be absolutely neutral in terms of inflation or deflation. The so called money supply should be constant zero! The quantity of money in circulation should be constant! In terms of Bitcoin this is 21 million coins or 21 quadrillion units. That is it! Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

Monetary inflation is bad! Inflation is unlawful tax imposed by governments to rob their citizens!

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September 06, 2011, 05:10:22 PM
 #96

I know what he is talking about, he doesn't. If you have natural money as gold (neither inflationary nor deflationary) price of goods and services will decrease because productivity is increasing. This, however, IS NOT DEFLATION! Learn to make difference between inflation/deflation in general and MONETARY inflation/deflation! Money is just metric of value that helps exchange goods and services. This is why money should be absolutely neutral in terms of inflation or deflation. The so called money supply should be constant zero! The quantity of money in circulation should be constant! In terms of Bitcoin this is 21 million coins or 21 quadrillion units. That is it! Why is that so difficult for you to understand?

Monetary inflation is bad! Inflation is unlawful tax imposed by governments to rob their citizens!

Please explain how using gold as money automagically increases productivity and how it is neither inflationary nor deflationary.

Learn to make difference between inflation/deflation in general and MONETARY inflation/deflation!

Or maybe you should learn that the terms inflation and deflation only refer to the level of prices and what you refer as "monetary inflation/deflation" is actually called money supply expansion/contraction.

JD - The only way you can convince them of this is to take the "inflation" out of the argument.  Demurrage is not in fact inflation, it is in fact an implementation of fixed currency size with nominal inflationary properties.  This style of coin would also see deflation as the adoption and usage rates go up, a portion of this deflation would be offset by Demurrage.  Once, people realize this the argument against it being an inflationary currency can be chucked out the window.  And *one of* the biggest advantages is that it is a simple mechanism to reclaim lost coins in the system.  Another "one of" the biggest advantages is that it keeps the miners sufficiently compensated when the current other chains will fall off after new coin generation falls by the way side.

Yeah, you are right.
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September 06, 2011, 09:36:07 PM
 #97

However, in cryptocurrencies their will be some deflation.  From 1840-1914 there was basically deflation overall. 
1. From 1840-1914 there were no cryptocurrencies. How did that happen?

If interest is zero, bitcoin will far exceed dollar deflation due to lost coins.
2. How did you know a coin is lost?
3. Don't people lose dollar banknotes as well?

1. I should have probably move the upper date to 1971 or 1933.  We were on a strict gold standard and the debt of the United States was flat. That will increased productivity resulted in deflation.  It is to be noted, even when we were on a gold standard banks made loans far bigger than reserves.  At times the government or banks would demand real money gold or silver for the fake money paper, which caused a lot of problems.

2. I here about it all the time, but bitcoin can easily be lost with a keystroke.
3. Yes, but compared to bitcoin they are small.  Especially now when the nickles and pennies you lose are more expensive to make than the face value of the coin.
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