We Need a Real Bitcoin Online Store, not "retailers" who just price gouge 15-20%

[Raoul Duke]

go here: http://loja.pmakordeoneditora.pt and buy some music. I promise they are not retailers. In fact i dare you to find a price comparison from any other shop for any of the tracks for sale there. 

Just one thing: The prices are in euros and the conversion to BTC is done real time when you make the payment, therefore your argument that things are overpriced when the price is marked in bitcoin is not valid here lol
Oh, and don't tell me €2,50 is expensive for a music track, beatport sells them for the similar prices(€2,57)

Now, put your money where your mouth is. You'll make an indie label very happy if you buy at least one track

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[Littleshop]

Just one thing: The prices are in euros and the conversion to BTC is done real time when you make the payment, therefore your argument that things are overpriced when the price is marked in bitcoin is not valid here lol
Oh, and don't tell me €2,50 is expensive for a music track, beatport sells them for the similar prices(€2,57)

You told me not to but sorry, I have to.

2.5 Euros is expensive for a music track.  A single track.  If it was an album then it would be cheap.  I regularly buy music online for 99 cents a track or $10 an album.  Most of what I have bought is from independent non-riaa groups.  I would indeed go without at nearly $3 a track for music. 

I also, when going to concerts of smaller groups, have bought their entire back collection of CD's when they price them below $10, otherwise at $10 or more I buy just what I am sure I will like.   A Cd costs $1 to make or less for most groups.

[enmaku]

Oh, and don't tell me €2,50 is expensive for a music track, beatport sells them for the similar prices(€2,57)

2.5 euros ~= 3.61 US dollars... That's... Well that's 3.61 times more than what iTunes charges, on average... You must have big brass ones to walk into a thread where folks are complaining about 15-20% markups and push something at a 361% markup while calling it reasonable or fair... I'm kind of speechless right now...

[Raoul Duke]

Oh, and don't tell me €2,50 is expensive for a music track, beatport sells them for the similar prices(€2,57)

2.5 euros ~= 3.61 US dollars... That's... Well that's 3.61 times more than what iTunes charges, on average... You must have big brass ones to walk into a thread where folks are complaining about 15-20% markups and push something at a 361% markup while calling it reasonable or fair... I'm kind of speechless right now...

So, go give your money to apple, I'm sure they need it more than any of the persons that have shops that accept bitcoin... and while you are at it, ask them to accept your bitcoins.

Unlike apple, that store has to pay 23% of VAT(€0,47 from those €2.50). I said it before and i say it again: Beatport charges €2,57 for each track ,VAT included. From those €2,57 they give the artist around €0.25...

And using an analogy that will fit very well in here: you are comparing apples to oranges. Comparing a shop that has a catalog of millions of tracks against one that has 40 or 50 tracks.

One more thing: The shop where i sent you PAID a bounty of $150 to develop the module that accepts bitcoin payments and gave it to the community. What did apple ever gave to this community?

[ShaggyB (BitCoinWorldMarket)]

Don't forget about www.bitcoinworldmarket.com

We don't do Amazon, newegg etc... We have our own vendors and many of our prices are comparable to that which you can find on Amazon or the like. We also have a decent selection of items you can't get on amazon.

Cheers,

Jonathan

[enmaku]

Oh, and don't tell me €2,50 is expensive for a music track, beatport sells them for the similar prices(€2,57)

2.5 euros ~= 3.61 US dollars... That's... Well that's 3.61 times more than what iTunes charges, on average... You must have big brass ones to walk into a thread where folks are complaining about 15-20% markups and push something at a 361% markup while calling it reasonable or fair... I'm kind of speechless right now...

So, go give your money to apple, I'm sure they need it more than any of the persons that have shops that accept bitcoin... and while you are at it, ask them to accept your bitcoins.

Unlike apple, that store has to pay 23% of VAT(€0,47 from those €2.50). I said it before and i say it again: Beatport charges €2,57 for each track ,VAT included. From those €2,57 they give the artist around €0.25...

And using an analogy that will fit very well in here: you are comparing apples to oranges. Comparing a shop that has a catalog of millions of tracks against one that has 40 or 50 tracks.

One more thing: The shop where i sent you PAID a bounty of $150 to develop the module that accepts bitcoin payments and gave it to the community. What did apple ever gave to this community?

Wasn't comparing you to apple, necessarily, but the fact is they are one of, if not the largest merchants in this particular marketplace and whether or not it's by me, you WILL be compared to them. I understand 23% VAT is standard in your jurisdiction , which raises the price to about $1.23 or about €0.85. We can all find a "comparably priced" item marked up to insane prices no matter what product we're trying to sell. The fact that someone else is gouging doesn't mean you're not - your price is to be compared to industry standard prices, not compared to other gougers. 10% off a price that's 300% too high is still gouging.

Edit:
For example - http://www.memory4less.com/m4l_itemdetail.aspx?partno=HD-583X-ZNFV&itemid=1462346931&rid=fd_10
ZOMG only $418.62 for a 5830! That's $104.65 off their list price of $523.27!!! Or, y'know, $300 more than you'd pay from newegg...

[Raoul Duke]

Hey, you might think the shop is mine, but it isn't. I just worked on it.

I don't set the prices, the record label does, and my first post was just to say that the prices aren't more expensive because they can be paid with bitcoin. Other users paying with ATM, bank transfer or paypal get the exact same prices. (note to self: tell the record label owner to give a 10% or 15% discount to people who pay with bitcoin)
As the complaint of the OP was about people pricing stuff in Bitcoin and pricing it more expensive for it, it was just a way to show that it's not always the case.
The reality is that we can't compare the prices on the music shop with itunes prices because we can't buy those tracks on itunes. If we could, then the comparison would be correct.

On a completely off-topic side note: People have no idea of the costs involved to maintain a legal digital downloads shop in Portugal, e.g.: just for having 30 seconds samples for the tracks the label needs to pay €100/month to the Portuguese RIAA equivalent, go figure, wether they sell or not. Add server costs, developers, etc, and it's a huge cost for an indie record label that has a tiny catalog and therefore doesn't sell much  And yet, the owner paid those $150 for the module to be built and opensourced, even if he wasn't expecting that much business from bitcoin users, just because he thinks Bitcoin is a wonderful thing than can change the world we all live in. And guess who introduced him to Bitcoin: me.

You all might think I'm an a-hole, but i really care for Bitcoin. And the only way to see it succeed is if small shops start accepting it, because you won't see the big ones doing it in the next years. I hope I'm wrong in this prediction, but I suspect I'm not.

Sorry about the long post and about anything else I might have said that offended any of you guys/girls.

Cheers!

[Littleshop]

So, go give your money to apple, I'm sure they need it more than any of the persons that have shops that accept bitcoin... and while you are at it, ask them to accept your bitcoins.

Unlike apple, that store has to pay 23% of VAT(€0,47 from those €2.50). I said it before and i say it again: Beatport charges €2,57 for each track ,VAT included. From those €2,57 they give the artist around €0.25...

And using an analogy that will fit very well in here: you are comparing apples to oranges. Comparing a shop that has a catalog of millions of tracks against one that has 40 or 50 tracks.

One more thing: The shop where i sent you PAID a bounty of $150 to develop the module that accepts bitcoin payments and gave it to the community. What did apple ever gave to this community?

No, I do not give my money music money to Apple.  My last purchase happened from watching a bitcoin video and liking the music:

http://fadedpaperfigures.bandcamp.com/

The majority of it has gone to local groups buying their CD's in person.  Most of them charge $10 a CD or less.  

And your example, beatport giving the artist 1/10 is pretty bad, there are many outlets that give the artist 1/2 or more.  And a bunch of artists do it ALL on their own, keeping the vast majority of the money.

Bitcoin would be perfect for them.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

Hey, you might think the shop is mine, but it isn't. I just worked on it.

I don't set the prices, the record label does, and my first post was just to say that the prices aren't more expensive because they can be paid with bitcoin. Other users paying with ATM, bank transfer or paypal get the exact same prices. (note to self: tell the record label owner to give a 10% or 15% discount to people who pay with bitcoin)
As the complaint of the OP was about people pricing stuff in Bitcoin and pricing it more expensive for it, it was just a way to show that it's not always the case.
The reality is that we can't compare the prices on the music shop with itunes prices because we can't buy those tracks on itunes. If we could, then the comparison would be correct.

On a completely off-topic side note: People have no idea of the costs involved to maintain a legal digital downloads shop in Portugal, e.g.: just for having 30 seconds samples for the tracks the label needs to pay €100/month to the Portuguese RIAA equivalent, go figure, wether they sell or not. Add server costs, developers, etc, and it's a huge cost for an indie record label that has a tiny catalog and therefore doesn't sell much  And yet, the owner paid those $150 for the module to be built and opensourced, even if he wasn't expecting that much business from bitcoin users, just because he thinks Bitcoin is a wonderful thing than can change the world we all live in. And guess who introduced him to Bitcoin: me.

You all might think I'm an a-hole, but i really care for Bitcoin. And the only way to see it succeed is if small shops start accepting it, because you won't see the big ones doing it in the next years. I hope I'm wrong in this prediction, but I suspect I'm not.

Sorry about the long post and about anything else I might have said that offended any of you guys/girls.

Cheers!

+1

This sucks! I can't add anything to this post to make it better, nor supply an image. Good Job, psy.

[enmaku]

Nah, I don't think poorly of you or anything, I was just pointing out some discrepancies in your statements, that's all. I do agree with your base reasoning though, that we need to get more mom'n'pop type places accepting bitcoin. Sadly I don't see it happening at the big stores for some time either.

[wolftaur]

I'd just like to point out that the excuse that stores have to inflate the prices if they take Bitcoin to handle exchange volatility is completely illegitimate.

Unless, that is, they refund some of your Bitcoins when the exchange rate goes up in between when you send the coins and when they sell them on an exchange.

That excuse of "well, in case it goes down" is just another way of saying, "We're going to guarantee that we make our profit -- and we're going to do short term speculation where we reap any and all rewards, but we'll force you to pay us extra in case we lose the bet."

[edd]

I opened this thread wondering if I should mention BitBrew or not. I felt as if I might be trying to inject it into too many posts. Imagine my surprise to see others bring it up!

My shirts aren't in high demand, but they're top notch quality for less than a bitcoin...  They might look like regular T-shirts, but they are very heavy and definitely higher quality than what you'd find in the store.

www.ogdogg.com/shirts.html

This is a good market strategy for any business, not just bitcoin based ones. I ran a brick and mortar store for ten years trying to provide a no-frills service, competing on price, cutting every ethical corner I could find just to offer a better deal than the guy down the street. In the end, I sold the business because I couldn't make ends meet anymore and was falling farther and farther into debt; no matter how low I set my prices, there was always someone else who was cheaper. Once I got out and could look back on it from the outside, I decided that it is much better to offer a high quality product for a fair price. With BitBrew, I may not have tons of customers, but they're obviously loyal ones. Thanks guys!

[Phinnaeus Gage]

I opened this thread wondering if I should mention BitBrew or not. I felt as if I might be trying to inject it into too many posts. Imagine my surprise to see others bring it up!

My shirts aren't in high demand, but they're top notch quality for less than a bitcoin...  They might look like regular T-shirts, but they are very heavy and definitely higher quality than what you'd find in the store.

www.ogdogg.com/shirts.html

This is a good market strategy for any business, not just bitcoin based ones. I ran a brick and mortar store for ten years trying to provide a no-frills service, competing on price, cutting every ethical corner I could find just to offer a better deal than the guy down the street. In the end, I sold the business because I couldn't make ends meet anymore and was falling farther and farther into debt; no matter how low I set my prices, there was always someone else who was cheaper. Once I got out and could look back on it from the outside, I decided that it is much better to offer a high quality product for a fair price. With BitBrew, I may not have tons of customers, but they're obviously loyal ones. Thanks guys!

π > e (T-Shirt idea)

I like your business model--linking all three sites. Is the bitsquirrel your design? I'm thinking about having Martin tool it on leather, is why I ask.

[edd]

I like your business model--linking all three sites. Is the bitsquirrel your design? I'm thinking about having Martin tool it on leather, is why I ask.

Actually, I put the image and link for Square²Wear as a favor to Gabriel, the representative of that company here on the forum. I think I may remove it, however. This isn't the first time someone has thought it was one of my sites and I don't want to mislead anyone. BitBrew and The Bitcoin List are mine, though.

[Stephen Gornick]

Better still would be a similar service run directly by the exchange themselves...

Because the prices will both rise and fall then over the longer term (e.g., week, month or quarter, at worst) these fluctuations will in most instances cancel each other out.

If this is something where there is absolutely no margin for fluctuations, the Mt. Gox redeemable code (voucher) gives the merchant the ability to trade on the proceeds instantaneously, though this requires the customer to use a Mt. Gox account rather than the bitcoin client. This voucher feature is currently available already but for the API they are looking for beta testers yet if I remember correctly.

Additionally, when volumes become large enough there will likely be easy and inexpensive methods for lessening this risks similar to how forex protections are available.

[enmaku]

I'd just like to point out that the excuse that stores have to inflate the prices if they take Bitcoin to handle exchange volatility is completely illegitimate.

Unless, that is, they refund some of your Bitcoins when the exchange rate goes up in between when you send the coins and when they sell them on an exchange.

That excuse of "well, in case it goes down" is just another way of saying, "We're going to guarantee that we make our profit -- and we're going to do short term speculation where we reap any and all rewards, but we'll force you to pay us extra in case we lose the bet."

So you mean it's a method for eliminating risk and maximizing profit? That... actually sounds like everything that every successful business does... ever...

[RSantana]

Don't forget http://CoinedBits.com. High quality unique product at an amazing price.

And check this out. It looks like arstechnica.com is one of my customers :-).

Here is todays article:
http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/08/symantec-spots-malware-that-uses-your-gpu-to-mine-bitcoins.ars

[3phase]

If 1,000 merchants offer 10,000 products/services and keep their BTC prices 10% lower in value to their USD, EUR< etc. prices, then wouldn't that create a BTC buying momentum that would raise the BTC/USD exchange rate?

After all, if we're talking quality vendors and not quick-buck scammers, new people (not miners or current BTC holders) would want to buy these things and so they would try to buy bitcoins in order to purchase these wanted items/services.

In the long term, offering a discount for BTC payments, is profitable, by expanding the market for BTC, and therefore create a buying pressure raising the exchange rates.

I do understand the businesses that want to take no risks (I've taken quite a few in my business life, and they did hurt), but if you do believe in BTC, you have to share some of the risk with your customer. They (the customers) will be hurt in the end and they will have a sour feeling if BTC/USD rises 20% from payment time to delivery time. You (the business) will be hurt if BTC/USD falls 20% from payment time to cashing in time.

And yes, I am thinking of starting a business selling food stuff for BTC, and my main concern is how to get prices lower than Walmart.

[Phinnaeus Gage]

If 1,000 merchants offer 10,000 products/services and keep their BTC prices 10% lower in value to their USD, EUR< etc. prices, then wouldn't that create a BTC buying momentum that would raise the BTC/USD exchange rate?

After all, if we're talking quality vendors and not quick-buck scammers, new people (not miners or current BTC holders) would want to buy these things and so they would try to buy bitcoins in order to purchase these wanted items/services.

In the long term, offering a discount for BTC payments, is profitable, by expanding the market for BTC, and therefore create a buying pressure raising the exchange rates.

I do understand the businesses that want to take no risks (I've taken quite a few in my business life, and they did hurt), but if you do believe in BTC, you have to share some of the risk with your customer. They (the customers) will be hurt in the end and they will have a sour feeling if BTC/USD rises 20% from payment time to delivery time. You (the business) will be hurt if BTC/USD falls 20% from payment time to cashing in time.

And yes, I am thinking of starting a business selling food stuff for BTC, and my main concern is how to get prices lower than Walmart.

What about selling the food stuff that Walmart doesn't carry?

[3phase]

What about selling the food stuff that Walmart doesn't carry?
[/quote]

I was actually getting to that same conclusion...