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Author Topic: is bitminter safe ?  (Read 7235 times)
RandyFolds
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September 25, 2011, 09:02:03 PM
 #21

@DrHaribo can you implement a function to throttle down the graphic card ?

Added to my TODO list. Smiley

What makes you trustworthy enough to run your proprietary software on my machine?

That's for you to decide. Obviously you decided against it, and that's alright.

The miner is just a benefit I offer you for free if you mine in my pool. You don't have to use it.

People mine with other miners at the BitMinter pool too. You can see which miners people use here: https://bitminter.com/miners


That's a nice stats page!

Everything seems clean and well-done. I (and I am not alone) am just super sketched-out by proprietary bitcoin software. And paying out of pocket for people to use it seems...unprofitable.

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P4man
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September 25, 2011, 09:05:34 PM
 #22

And paying out of pocket for people to use it seems...unprofitable.

Its obviously an investment in startup pool.
If he can achieve a pool that only 10% as big as beepbit, that ought to pay itself back handsomely through the fees. But you wont get many miners joining a new and small pool with large uncertainty,  if you dont give incentives. A nice miner only gets you so far.

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September 25, 2011, 09:11:46 PM
 #23

@DrHaribo can you implement a function to throttle down the graphic card ?

Added to my TODO list. Smiley

Ha, a "scammer" that accepts wishes from the people his stealing from... Crap, just kidding Cheesy . I respect your work DrHaribo !

@Randy: Nothing against being careful, like others wrote: take it or leave it. No need for hate.

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September 25, 2011, 09:52:07 PM
 #24

@DrHaribo can you implement a function to throttle down the graphic card ?

Added to my TODO list. Smiley

Ha, a "scammer" that accepts wishes from the people his stealing from... Crap, just kidding Cheesy . I respect your work DrHaribo !

@Randy: Nothing against being careful, like others wrote: take it or leave it. No need for hate.


It's called the long con...get enough rubes together and fleece them all at once after they trust you. Not sure how long you've been around the bitcoin community, but this wouldn't be the first example of it.

The software is perfectly capable of very malicious things. Does it do them? No one knows because it's not open source or audited in any way.

This isn't about me...this is a thread asking if bitminter is safe...I am merely pointing out the many things that make it unsafe. To top it off, there is DrHaribo, who is making proprietary software (to turn himself a profit) that rides on the backs of people participating in a p2p network in good faith. Why not further bitcoin, instead of furthering DrHaribo's pocketbook? The two goals are not exclusive, and his talent could be better applied to the spirit of the project, rather than some profit-whoring offshoot that no one actually needs.

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September 25, 2011, 10:12:44 PM
 #25


The software is perfectly capable of very malicious things. Does it do them? No one knows because it's not open source or audited in any way.

Care to show me an example of webstart java malware and what it can do? Since it cant access my filesystem, I really wonder what it could do that a website could not.

Quote
This isn't about me...this is a thread asking if bitminter is safe...I am merely pointing out the many things that make it unsafe. To top it off, there is DrHaribo, who is making proprietary software (to turn himself a profit) that rides on the backs of people participating in a p2p network in good faith. Why not further bitcoin, instead of furthering DrHaribo's pocketbook? The two goals are not exclusive, and his talent could be better applied to the spirit of the project, rather than some profit-whoring offshoot that no one actually needs.

Gee, I thought this was an alternative currency, trying to build an economy based on free market principles, not a non profit neocommunist experiment. Shame on anyone trying to make a profit on bitcoins! Whats next, you gonna start badmouthing BTC trade?

BTW, I know what DrHaribo is working on, and it has the potential to do more to advance bitcoin as a currency than anything I recently read on this forum. That his motive is profit is fine by me. Its the same motive driving mt gox and everyone else.

Oh, and one more thing. Making miners more efficient does NOTHING for bitcoin. Nothing, nada, niente. Think about it. If someone releases an opensource miner that doubles our hashrate, what changes?


DrHaribo
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September 26, 2011, 08:29:39 PM
 #26

The software is perfectly capable of very malicious things. Does it do them? No one knows because it's not open source or audited in any way.

Yes, "even" a Java program can be malicious. And pool operators can steal your money. Anyone who handles your money can. You should probably not mine in my pool if you think I am not trustworthy.

To top it off, there is DrHaribo, who is making proprietary software (to turn himself a profit) that rides on the backs of people participating in a p2p network in good faith.

I don't understand this. I think the people who created bitcoin want it to be used for profit. And since when is it wrong to make a little money from hard work? (If I ever do)

Do you also think deepbit is making money riding on "the backs of people participating in a p2p network in good faith"? I don't. They offer a service to their users, and I congratulate them on creating a successful business.

Or is only what I do wrong, because I offer an alternative miner?

Why not further bitcoin, instead of furthering DrHaribo's pocketbook? The two goals are not exclusive, and his talent could be better applied to the spirit of the project, rather than some profit-whoring offshoot that no one actually needs.

I admit it, it's true. At one point in the future I would be happy if I was able to "whore" out a small profit from all this work.

The way BitMinter is different from other pools and miners is that it makes bitcoin mining easy. Easy enough for the average Joe - you don't even have to be a programmer to use it. Shocked  Yes, this is something that some people actually need. And this might get some more (non-technical) people into using bitcoins.

In a few days I'm being interviewed by a business newspaper, about BitMinter and bitcoins in general. I doubt the businessmen who read it are going to start mining in my pool. But it might help spread the word about bitcoins and create some interest.

There are also some other things planned, like P4man said.

I think I am already doing something to further bitcoin. I'm doing less well with the profit-whoring, but maybe someday.

What do you see as the spirit of the project? And do you have any suggestions as to how I may better further bitcoin?

▶▶▶ Bitminter.com - Your trusted mining pool since 2011.
RandyFolds
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September 26, 2011, 09:39:37 PM
 #27


What do you see as the spirit of the project?


Transparency.


And do you have any suggestions as to how I may better further bitcoin?


Transparency.


Seriously, though...I have no problem with you or anyone else making a buck off of a pool, or bitcoin in general, but there is a difference between doing your own thing off in the corner vs. playing with the rest of the class. I ran yesterday with my donations set to 100% on arsbitcoin, cause this price slump is hurting all the pool ops and they are offering a valuable service. I also donate to the software developers whose crap I use. I even donate for some stuff I don't use but I like the idea of. Since this price slump, I have tried to make purchases from every reputable vendor I could. I don't think I am the only one doing it. There are a lot of bright minds intent on making this work.

You could do exactly the same as you are doing now, but open source and allowing it to be used anywhere. You would certainly silence the likes of me, and I don't think it would affect the appeal or potential profitability of the pool. I think a simple mining app is very much needed, and I applaud you for developing one. Now let everyone play. It would be beneficial for the whole community, and would win you a bunch of rep. In the long run, you would still make a profit, and in my mind, you would make it even faster after dropping some sweet software on our heads and gradually swaying us all over to your pool.

I initially replied to this thread half-trolling because I don't like the idea of closed source miners, as there is an huge and obvious risk involved with them. I haven't used the program, so I cannot comment on that, but your site looks very clean and professional compared to many of the larger pools out there and you seem like a genuinely nice guy. I am not trying to hate, I am just saying what I am thinking, and I bet I'm not the only one.

I wish you luck with your interview. Be sure to link it in the Bitcoin Press thread if there is an online version!

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September 27, 2011, 09:59:54 PM
 #28

I ran yesterday with my donations set to 100% on arsbitcoin, cause this price slump is hurting all the pool ops and they are offering a valuable service. I also donate to the software developers whose crap I use. I even donate for some stuff I don't use but I like the idea of. Since this price slump, I have tried to make purchases from every reputable vendor I could. I don't think I am the only one doing it. There are a lot of bright minds intent on making this work.

That is a good idea, I think. More than anything bitcoin needs merchants. What we can all do to make it work is spend some coins.

You could do exactly the same as you are doing now, but open source and allowing it to be used anywhere. You would certainly silence the likes of me, and I don't think it would affect the appeal or potential profitability of the pool. I think a simple mining app is very much needed, and I applaud you for developing one. Now let everyone play. It would be beneficial for the whole community, and would win you a bunch of rep. In the long run, you would still make a profit, and in my mind, you would make it even faster after dropping some sweet software on our heads and gradually swaying us all over to your pool.

Yes, you may be right about this. Building up the pool is slow going, so you can be sure I am considering making some changes going forward.

I initially replied to this thread half-trolling because I don't like the idea of closed source miners, as there is an huge and obvious risk involved with them. I haven't used the program, so I cannot comment on that, but your site looks very clean and professional compared to many of the larger pools out there and you seem like a genuinely nice guy. I am not trying to hate, I am just saying what I am thinking, and I bet I'm not the only one.

Thanks, I appreciate it.

I wish you luck with your interview. Be sure to link it in the Bitcoin Press thread if there is an online version!

Thank you. I will do that, although it will be in norwegian so I suppose it will only be interesting to scandinavians. Wink

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RandyFolds
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September 29, 2011, 12:42:18 AM
 #29

Hey hey...you guys are big enough to get on the pident list:

http://pident.artefact2.com/

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September 29, 2011, 07:00:01 PM
 #30

Hehe.. Nice of them to make the piechart big enough that we are visible. Wink

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P4man
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September 30, 2011, 06:02:54 PM
 #31

Regarding the allegations of potential cheating with the reported MH, I decided to a little (admittedly, limited and somewhat flawed) test now that I have 2 5850s. One machine is running diablo (on ubuntu) the other is running bitminter (on windows). Both clocked at 775/300, similar optimal settings, same 2.5 version of the SDK. I started them simultaneously let them run for a few hours.

Bitminer and diablo both report very similar MH/s, around 310 (taking the screenshot makes it drop). Diablo is a bit more consistent, bitminter, definitely peaks higher, but if anything might average a bit lower in what it reports, hard to say. Both systems have had zero rejected shares in this run. Anyway, this is what the pool reports:



bit=bitminter
dia=diablo

Perhaps its too small a dataset to be conclusive, but from the very start bitminter has produced noticeably more shares than diablo. If Dr Haribo is cheating, it seems he is paying for it Smiley.

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September 30, 2011, 08:19:33 PM
 #32

Regarding the allegations of potential cheating with the reported MH, I decided to a little (admittedly, limited and somewhat flawed) test now that I have 2 5850s. One machine is running diablo (on ubuntu) the other is running bitminter (on windows). Both clocked at 775/300, similar optimal settings, same 2.5 version of the SDK. I started them simultaneously let them run for a few hours.

Bitminer and diablo both report very similar MH/s, around 310 (taking the screenshot makes it drop). Diablo is a bit more consistent, bitminter, definitely peaks higher, but if anything might average a bit lower in what it reports, hard to say. Both systems have had zero rejected shares in this run. Anyway, this is what the pool reports:



bit=bitminter
dia=diablo

Perhaps its too small a dataset to be conclusive, but from the very start bitminter has produced noticeably more shares than diablo. If Dr Haribo is cheating, it seems he is paying for it Smiley.


Do it for a couple days at least and present a real dataset. Due to the way hashrates are calculated by pools, the 35 share difference could merely be probability, or it could be a temperature difference between the two cards, which would affect the speed and efficiency. Which actual card is on top? the one running diablo, or bitminter?

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September 30, 2011, 08:46:17 PM
 #33

No temperature issue, both cards are below 55C. The ubuntu/diablo machine does have a pathetic CPU by comparison (single core Pentium 4 vs Core2 quad) but I dont think that makes any difference.

The bitminter one is the one that produced more hashes. You must either compare the live apps (so 301 vs 255) or the ones shows on the website from a few minutes earlier (288 vs 253)

Ill do a longer sample later, but Im using my windows machine for other things it doesnt mine 24/7 like the ubuntu rig. When I do it, Ill reverse it. Ill run bitminter on the ubuntu/pentium 4 machine and diablo on the windows/C2Q.

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September 30, 2011, 09:30:51 PM
 #34

No temperature issue, both cards are below 55C. The ubuntu/diablo machine does have a pathetic CPU by comparison (single core Pentium 4 vs Core2 quad) but I dont think that makes any difference.

The bitminter one is the one that produced more hashes. You must either compare the live apps (so 301 vs 255) or the ones shows on the website from a few minutes earlier (288 vs 253)

Ill do a longer sample later, but Im using my windows machine for other things it doesnt mine 24/7 like the ubuntu rig. When I do it, Ill reverse it. Ill run bitminter on the ubuntu/pentium 4 machine and diablo on the windows/C2Q.

Aha...I just assumed both cards were in the same rig. I am curious to see the results of your experiment. That is a ridiculous performance increase.

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September 30, 2011, 10:09:16 PM
 #35

started a new run. Created 2 new workers, booted both machine in to identical ubuntu installs this time, so same drivers, same sdk same everything. Im running bitminter on the old P4 now, and diablo on the Core2q. Ill post results tomorrow if neither machine crashes (the c2q is a rebuild thats not quite done yet. Like the CPU fan is not even attached its merely balancing on the CPU lol. And no, its not overheating at all, dont worry).

update: before I go to bed, this is what I have after 30 minutes or so:



Even with a pentium 4 bitminter seems to be pulling way ahead. Yes, its way too early, but still... color me surprised. I expected them to be close.  So am I doing something wrong with the diablo settings? Im using this:

./DiabloMiner-Linux.sh --url http://P4man_diablocore2:xxx@mint.bitminter.com:8332 -v 2 -w 128

Ive experimented with 196 and 256 but the results were inconclusive. So I kept it at 128, same as Im using with bitminter.

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October 01, 2011, 07:36:59 AM
 #36

This is after a full night:


Results are much closer now, and much more believable, though bitminter is still faster by a non trivial amount.
cpu speed is a non issue clearly, but we could have guessed that.

I also notice diablo timing out a few times contacting the pool. 6x in the past 10 hours. Not sure if that is really an issue here, as a few seconds later it always gets through, but  bitminter  (machine is on the same network) never timed out once.

lastly, I have 1 hardware error and 4 rejects on diablo, and zero of either on the bitminter machine, but that may not be related to the software, Im not sure.

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October 01, 2011, 09:50:02 AM
 #37

Last update, the Core2 machine has to be taken offline:



To be clear, you have to look at the proofs of work. The MH/s is a short term average (not sure, 5 minutes or so) and fluctuates wildly.
Seems like these apps are really close, but bitminter does have an edge on my 5850s. I believe bitminter has a bigger edge on 69x0's, but I cant test that. Anyone else feel free.

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